The Logic Off Topic list

Hi GA - I changed the title of the thread for you, OK? It got more
wide-ranging than I expected, but then that just shows what a collection of
erudite polymaths we all are...

Greetings Kool

...NLP/PSYCHOLOGY PT 1...

Re Bandler/Grinder/paradigm shifts etc...<snip>

I have no knowledge of their academic antecedents, though there are
obviously some interesting things going on in there somewhere which i will
follow up if I ever have the time. I don't have enough experience of current
academia, particularly in the field of psychology, to be able to comment on
the Kuhn stuff usefully. However...

> Not only that, but
> he said some in an interview I read that I thought so extraordinary I wrote
> it down: 'I believe it was very useful that neither one of us were
> qualified in the field we first went after - psychology and in particular,
> its therapeutic application; this being one of the conditions which Kuhn
> identified in his historical study of paradigm shifts".
> That's to say, he thought it to his advantage to try to overthrow an
> academic paradigm because he was treading into a field he knew nothing
> about. I found this strange because what I got from Kuhn was that when
> people like Maxwell Faraday or Einstein or Galileo started overthrowing a
> paradigm it was because they actually knew rather a lot about the current
> paradigm that they were overthrowing, but that they disagreed with it and
> proceeded to show why.

I know this could sound like a cheap line, but when it comes to theory of
mind we've all got something to contribute at some level. These guys could
eassily say they had more than most. How they bring it in is another matter.
Psych has fuzzy boundaries at best. I have no quibble with someone coming in
and shaking things up - I've already implied how dissatisfied I was with
psych when I was an undergraduate, which was enough to make me vow never to
have anything further to do with it after graduation - but that doesn't mean
that the whole shooting match was wrong. Some of the bits which intrigued me
the most were to do with neuropsychology, the adrenaline system (and other
hormonal systems) and its implications for behaviour in particular. This is
definitely stuff NLP couldn't directly address.

>Seems to me that there's rather a great deal of
> difference between knowing a lot and disagreeing and knowing nothing and
> speaking anyway.

Tell that to some of our highly-paid underworked rent-a-mouth newspaper
columnists!
> 
> I have to say that it was when I read that about Grinder, and when I saw
> that what they were doing was not so much trying to offer new ideas which
> could be assessed as deliberately trying to show that what was already
> there should be swept aside that I lost a bit of patience with them.

Well, yes, there's time to play and there's time to sit quietly, children -
and sometimes we can't leave the playground behind.

>> It's a collection of techniques of construing and
>> reconstruing 'problems' amongst other things, and dealing with them quickly
>> so people can move on.
> OK. But that's what it became. Not what it started out as.
> 
> As for your quote from O'Connor and Seymour:
> 
>> So NLP does not claim to be
>> objectively true. It is a model, and models are meant to be useful.'
> 
> That was not the aim when NLP first appeared. Although it might be what
> O'Connor and Seymour are up to.
> 
> I also agree with NLP in terms of the fact that it tries to stop people
> handing themselves and their treatments over to therapists for years on
> end. That much I agree is of great value.

Not being involved in matters academic, I haven't come across NLP as a
full-blown theory.  O'Connor and Seymour's take on it suits me fine. I have
come across it as a full-blown industry of its own - not a 'New Age Therapy'
in the crystals and joss-sticks sense so much as one of these besuited
corporate-style consultancy tools. I don't buy it in academic gown or suit,
but I'll borrow eclectically with pleasure. I know at least one good
counsellor and writer who does so successfully.

...AUTISM...

>> My son has Asperger's Syndrome, which is a form of high-functioning autism.
> 
> Gosh. I am very sorry to hear that. Can I ask three questions? Please feel
> free not to answer them if you would rather not because I will quite
> understand, under the circumstances.

No problem. It is good to get some information out there, as it is still
something of a hidden condition, though there has been some useful TV and
press exposure in the past 2-3 years.

> Does he also have a particular talent  as a part of the overall complex of
properties that go along with his  particular manifestation of the syndrome?

When he was 4 or 5 he was able to predict that his birthday two years ahead
would be on a Tuesday. But he couldn't cope with school before he was given
a diagnosis and spent the first term cowering under a table. He also wet the
bed every night and had frequent temper problems.

Following the start of proper intervention in the school from ed psychs,
language therapists, one on one classroom support from a helper (not to
mention huge parental input) he changed direction. My personal theory,
though I don't know what neurological damage he has suffered**, is that he
decided at some level of consciousness to direct 'processing power' to
learning to cope socially. This has stood him in good stead and his school
career has been spent entirely in the mainstream, with progressively less
intervention. Current intervention is still classroom support, with some
experimental social skills role-playing type stuff which I suspect may draw
on some NLP techniques.

>Is he overly literal -- so maybe  has difficulty appreciating that words often
flex and bend with contexts?

Most definitely. If you read anything written by autistic people, you will
find that they cannot cope with ambiguity, as the world is seen as a
sometimes frightening chaotic place. They hold the chaos at bay by hanging
on to reassuringly predictable stuff like train timetables* and develop what
are charitably described as 'interests'. My son's current 'interest' is
Rugrats. It was buses a while back, electrical sockets and switches before
that, and so on and so on. I made him his own special pie for Christmas
dinner one year, as he wouldn't eat what was in ours. I had decorated our
pie with leftover bits of pastry in the shape of leaves, as my mum taught
me. Would he like that? No - not leaves. Please put a three-pin electric
socket on there for me. So I did. Life with autistic people around can be
quite surreal. And wearing. And isolating.

*Remember the David Bowie song 'Sons of the silent age'?

Sons of the silent age
Stand on platforms with blank looks and notebooks...


> And do you, as a parent, find yourself being somehow 'blamed' for things
> that he does that are a part of the syndrome but that outsiders might put
> down to you and your supposedly bad parenting?

If they do I don't get told so. Neighbours know. He has been going to Cubs
and is about to be invested as a Scout on Friday. The leaders know and have
been very good. This is, BTW, exactly the kind of structured activity which
Aspergers people lap up. The school have been very good about inservice
training for staff.

We have been involved in parental support groups and I was a bit of an
activist for a bit, but there are at least as many problems in those groups
as in any other organised social grouping. Dropped out of that gratefully.

**I'm sure you realise that there's a lot more I could say in this area -
current research from some quarters into the causes is very interesting -
but I'll leave it there for now.

NLP AGAIN, BUT ALSO MUSIC...

<snip>
>> Nor does it have disciples! You need to do the theatre thing
>> and suspend disbelief to use it.
> I was kind of in ironic humorous mode there!!

and I was in 'forget the emoticons mode' again, which would otherwise have
indicated that I had recognised your ironic humorous mode!
 
>> If you've ever meditated successfully
> I have ... but never kind of thought of NLP as having a similar kind of
> navigational or internal dialogue capability. As already said, I am happy
> to reassess this.

It does by my reading, very much so - interesting to try to broaden this out
to other people on this list and suggest they examine their mind and
physiological state - as in heart rate, breathing, emotions, sensitivity to
external stimuli - when making music, especially when composing and 'on a
roll' - I believe one could usefully characterise this as 'light trance'
(no, not a music style!) I might venture to suggest that if one could  learn
the parameters of a successful mind-state like that it would be easier to
duplicate it and therefore productive  musicmaking would be easier to
engender.

...ENGLISH AS A LANGUAGE/CREOLE...
 
>> She was referring to Hindi and other Asian languages in terms of their
>> longterm linguistic purity (including a written form going back very far)
>> over many centuries and to _all_English as a Creole.
> I see. Well ... I would kind of agree with her about the English as a
> Creole bit. Personally, I think that this is one of the reasons for the
> charm and strength and power of the English language -- its ability to so
> readily absorb so many different forms and ideas from so many other
> languages while all the time retaining a certain structural and historical
> integrity right from the days of the Angles when Bede first documented its
> existence.

Agreed. This was her contention too.

> About the 'linguistic purity' of Hindi I can't say that I agree with her,
> although I can understand why she would say it. If she had said Sanskrit, I
> would be more prepared to agree.

Sanksrit was mentioned, yes, though it is not a 'living' language in the
Hindi/Punjabi/Urdu sense.

... <snip>

>> I taught the audio segment of a National Diploma in Media course for a while
> Must have been interesting!

Very.  Gave it up as it clashed too much in organisational terms with my
increasing involvment with Music Tech courses. But good to work so closely
with professional film/video makers, photographers, graphics people. Good to
get involved in programme making, interviewing techniques...

>> (basically recording for radio/TV) and was intrigued by the preponderance of
>> people on the course whose family background was not UK native in the
>> broadest sense and indeed were often not native English speakers
> Lots of us in the world, actually.

Granted - but the interest in media was very pronounced. The desire to
communicate ideas was far stronger amongst those students.

>> - anything
>> from Belgian and Spanish to Nigerian, Vietnamese and Thai. It made me wonder
>> about having an upbringing in a different language and cultural environment
>> and whether this gave more interest and awareness in methods of
>> communication that might otherwise be the case.
> To the last part of this, I think it does. Native English speakers tend to
> be a tad unusual in that a greater proportion of them only speak only the
> one language. I remember reading an interesting book by David Crystal in
> which he analysed the effects of this, but it was a long time ago now and I
> can't remember the details. (Why mention it then??!!!!!) The general
> thrust, though, was that it did make a difference to people when they had a
> choice about which language to communicate in. I think the phenomenon's
> called 'variety freedom', but I'm not sure.

In the case of Brits I put it down to good old-fashioned laziness and a
hangover of imperial consciousness. Couldn't speak for other native English
speakers.

..BEER...

>> The only programming I need in the Eight Bells is in the taste of the
>> current guest real ale. There are some brewers I would _definitely_ bow to
>> respectfully.
> 
> My good friend Ronnie always used to say that about Newcastle Brown. He
> just used to quaff, lift his glass a little higher so that the light shone
> on it well, look carefully at the elixir, smile knowingly to himself, sigh,
> and then put down his tankard. Good lad he was. Haven't seen him in a while.
 
Dear, dear! As a native Geordie (Why Aye, Man!) I can tell you that
Newcastle Brown is definitely not meant to be drunk from a tankard, but a
half-pint glass without a handle and preferably a schooner. Still, it's
usually a good drink however supped.

 We have two good little breweries on the Isle of Wight and there are still
many on the mainland.

Cheers, me dears,

Tony Thompson