The Logic Off Topic list

From: Zeek Duff <zkduff@...> 
Date: Wed May 1, 2002 1:31pm 
Subject: Re: Re: GEN Logic Bounce quality/ Re: LAM Bounce quality....  

> Original Message:
>    Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 10:15:27 -0000
>    From: "multiplum" <multiplum@h...>
> Subject: Re: LAM Bounce quality....
>
> --- In logic-users@y..., "Muhammed Paul" <muhammed@n...> wrote:
> > > When I'm finished mixing and I'm ready to bounce the whole mix,
> > > should I add dither at that stage when I bounce 24bit?
> > >
> > > I plan to master in T-Racks, which adds it's own dither. Does it make
> > > sense to dither twice?
> > NO!
> >  (Btw. I´d love Logic to be able to bounce to 32bit float so I could use
> > the whole available resolution, but....)
>
> The precision is the same with 24bit fixed and 32bit float, 23 bits (the
mo=st significant bit is used as a sign bit, methinks). The float format
adds a= one-byte exponent, for increased headroom.
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Original Message:
>    Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 10:26:37 -0000
>    From: "kickindaspeaker" <david@6...>
> Subject: Re: GEN Logic Bounce quality
>
> > What we need is for someone who CAN hear discrepancies to
> get some
> > measurable data.
>
> Somehow this whole thread reminds me of the age old sound
> engineer's trick: always keep a few non cabled strips on your
> board. That way when the guitar player says "more guitar,
> please!", you can push a fader. And then, when the drummer
> asks for more kick, you can push another one. And so
> on....usually makes everybody happy.
>
> <snip BS justification for the above>

Okay, call me a temperamental artist, but this whole concept pisses me off
and I blame the same overall attitude for the adoption of the crap 16 bit CD
format we're STILL stuck with.  So, in regards to "dithering down," unless
you're doing work for video or some other format where you can actually USE
a higher bitrate for enduser reproduction, I can't see starting and working
in anything more than 16 bit, IF that's where you're going to end up.  At
least that way, you know where you're at from the git-go and when something
disappears, you don't need to guess at what happened and guess at how to
"fix it in the mix."

As for the little BS "tests" some engineers like to taunt you with, I don't
have time for such games.  It's happened in my experience more than once, I
caught an SOB trying to pull that crap on me in an album session a long time
ago, and I replaced his ugly ass.  Many years ago (about 30) I was working
with some pretty heavy folks, bleeding edge types, one of whom was an
engineer who later wrote a book on audio engineering that became a standard
textbook on the subject.  We had an argument in the studio one day, shortly
after he had designed and installed a "state of the art" studio in a famous
voice-over guy's home studio in Chicago.  The
argument was about what frequencies a guitar produces and came about because
he had recorded a track I'd played perfectly, but when played back it
sounded muddy to me.  We went looking for WHY, and lo & behold, he'd rolled
off the high freqs @ 4k, and when I pointed that out, he boldly said "Why
not?  The guitar doesn't produce any notes much above 2k, anyway."  I was so
shocked, I couldn't speak for about 30 seconds, then spluttering came out,
veins bulged, and then I managed to talk about harmonic overtones, air, and
things I sensed but had a hard time putting into words.  So, the answer was
to do it over without the rolloff, and compare
the two tracks.  Well, even he had to agree my "new" version SOUNDED better,
but he still tried to defend his position.  I was in a position that I HAD
to work with this guy a while longer, but he eventually got fired by the
studio owner for taking and holding that and other untenable, indefensible
positions and attitudes.  The bottom line in this case, the guy was
definitely an incredible electronic/electrical engineer/designer, was NOT
exactly "tone deaf," but was arrogant enough to think he could hear better
than any professional musician.  Okay, fine.  Adios, mo' fo'.  As a result,
you can BELIEVE I've kept a very close eye on engineers
ever since.

Those of you out there that JUST run studios and wonder why you're losing
all your business to home project Logic (and other) DAW based small studios,
take note.  Your ATTITUDE could have a lot to do with, and when musicians
don't hear what they expect and you blame their proficiency and start trying
to fuck with their minds with little fake fader games, even if someone
doesn't nail you on the spot, there's a good chance they simply won't ever
use you again, let alone give you a recommendation.  When you're dealing
with rank amateurs or just learning the craft, then those things may be good
"tests," and even some "producers" that are a pain
in the butt can be handled that way, but if you get a good one or are
dealing with a good musician, you're just plain being a fool if you mess
around like that.

If you want to discuss this further, I suggest taking it to the OT list.

Rant mode "off."  ;)

Regards,
...z


"Those who hear not the music think the dancers mad."

       Zeek Duff - Colorado's Top Jazz Guitarist on mp3.com
Check out "The Shadow Of Your Smile" #1 Jazz Standard on mp3.com
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