The Logic Off Topic list

This weeks Audio Round-Table was attended by BetaBrett, chillisource,
janpulsford , lynnmonk,   jay, DJ-Allard  and oink

after some chitchat about plugins, we got down to the topic at hand.
Namely 'creative partnerships with remote artists- how best can we
nurture these relationships?'

Pretty soon we got down to ways the rocket user interface could be
improved to enhance collaborative work and arrived at a list of
suggestions/needs, which i've added at the end of this summary


BB  says, "You fellers setting around squackin' 'bout plugs when
we got revolutions to get a movin'"
 c  says, "i havent had rebirth on here for a while...reason
is quite alot to be getting on with"
 oink says, "yup. lets get to it"
 oink says, "I wanted to float a discussion on building and maintaining
collaborative relationships here"
 BB   says, "Got a seed to plant?"
 oink says, "cause i know how hard it is to keep ones mind on unfinished

work"
 oink says, "and so many projects just lay wasting away"
 BB   says, "true"
 oink says, "and i'm wondering if there are any tools which could help
support on-going teams"
 oink says, "like a diary or something"
 oink says, "I know Jan nwill mention bookmatks, which I think help a
lot"

 BB   says, "a log/diary associated with a session would be great"
 oink says, "they did keep your eye more on whet youd been doing"
 oink says, "yes that would"
 oink says, "what about a personal diary too"
 oink says, "like we have a list of our own current sessions"
 oink says, "but not a list of what we have contributed to"
 oink says, "if we could have a list of what we contributed to, and be
able to prioritise it, do you think that would help ?"
 jp  says, "k. i'm here (-; .  .the main reason fro unfinished
projects in my experience is because favourites were taken away"
 jp  says, "why was that?"
 oink says, "I don't know"
 jp  says, "and are they going to be reimplemented?"
 BB   says, "Jan.... I'm going to get the RC2.5 spec tomorrow"
 oink says, "but I think we can build a strong argument to get them
back"
 jp  says, "everyone i talk to says that is the one thing they
miss more than anything"
 BB   says, "and I'll let you know"
 oink says, "oh cool"
 l oined the Session.
 jp  says, "i think we've built very strong arguments for them
coming back"
 BB   says, "I think that the lose of Favs was simply bad process
in dev, to be honest"
 jp  says, "ever since they disappeared"
  l says, "Hi all!"
 BB   says, "heya!"
 jp  says, "hi lynn"
 oink says, "jan you are very good at collaborations, and get stuff
done,
do you have any tips ?"
 oink says, "hi lynn !"
 jp  says, "well the navigation is another reason fro not
finishing projects"
  l says, "wots going on ere then?"
 jp  says, "finding them is so hard"
 BB   says, "Jan - I'll fight to the death for Favs in RC 2.5"
 oink says, "lynn, the session notes spell out the agenda"
 jp  says, "ok spoken like a true klingon"
 oink says, "hehe"
 BB   says, "It is the only honorable thing to do"
 oink says, "but what can we do personally to keep track and maintain
working relationships ?"
 oink says, "any good tools for that ?"
 BB   says, "If would help if there were a way to automatically
create a mini-email list for each project"
 oink says, "that would be good"
 BB   says, "It could really make a diff"
 BB   says, "shouldn't be difficult"
 oink says, "it is a big grind to send individual messages to 5 or 6
collaborators"
 l says, "that's cool...I agree"
 c   says, "just one button named something like "mail group"
on the page would be good"
 BB   says, "That and a log attached to the session would cover
most of it for me"
  l says, "could it be saved with the track?"
 BB   says, "Kinda like a shared text document - it could be
web-based"
 BB   says, "all users could keep shared comments on it in one
place"
 jp  says, "afk"
 oink says, "if we could have that combined with favourites"
  l says, "I could use a larger session notes capacity to post
lyrics and updates"
 oink says, "we would have avery good reminder system to keep us on
track
:)"
 BB   says, "Well.... maybe it could heat my bedtime milk, too  ;)"

 oink says, "or 2 levels of notes"
 oink says, "we had that befoer didn't we ?"
  l says, "and I think all contributors should be able to add to
the session notes"
 oink says, "like studio notes and project notes"
 oink says, "I think they can now"
  l says, "no ...I haven't found it so"
  l says, "the button is there but it wont post"
 BB   says, "brb"
 oink says, "well i did the other day, but maybe its because I have
overriding perms in public sessions"
  l says, "nope just tried it...it lets you add to the notes and
when you submit your changes they don't appear"
 oink says, "the notes here are at the max though"
  l says, "ok I'll try deleting the last word..."
 oink says, "try again"
   j  joined the Session.
 j  waves
 oink says, "hi   "
 BB   says, "yo   "
 c   says, "hiya   "
  l says, "nope...nothing"
  l says, "Hi   "
    says, "should i bring this in?"
 BB   says, "?"
 j  says, "the arrange"
  l says, "well thats two bugs I've found in 2 weeks ...can't be
bad"
 c   says, "think its empty   "
 BB   says, "empty now"
 j  says, "ta engin"
  l says, "well I can't change the session notes :("
 BB   says, "Dave... can only the owners edit notes?"
 oink says, "it must be"
  l says, "that isn't any good"
 oink says, "or someone with sssion manager perms"
 oink says, "   , its an empty session AFAIK"
  l says, "I think all contributors should be allowed to edit the
session notes"
  j    says, "sorry to wast time, but if someone could tell me what we
are
considering, it'd help me a lot"
 oink says, "I just emailed the prior chat to you   "
  j   says, "i'll check it now"
  l says, "especially since it allows me to type them in...thats
just wasting my time if it wont post it :("
 oink says, "all contributors should be, but only if they have posted,
wouldn't you nthink ?"
  l says, "yes"
 BB   says, "Dave - perhaps you could send the beta list a summary
in addition to the transcript of this discussion - it's very very
timely"
 jp  says, "k back . .500 characters is the max allowed on
session notes"
 oink says, "uh-oh, i had the session notes on my clipboard"
  l says, "thats not enough"
 jp  says, "i tried posting lyrics"
 jp  says, "as a way of cowriting and it doesn't work"
 oink says, "I suggested a separate fiels in chat for lyrics before"
  l says, "I know...I tried that before...oink and I even tried to
post them via the markers but rocket wont post marker settings"
  l says, "I think they definately need to be with the session"
 oink says, "no it won't"
 j     says to you, "no email here--so i figure we are talking about
adding lyrics to sessions------some sort of note pad?--"
  l says, "yes"
 oink says, "so the vital thing for on-going collaboration is a better
text-based side"
  l says, "definitely"
 BB   says, "   - it's about ways to enhance collaboration and
commication "
  j     says, "i understand--- Oink,     how's the esx24 standard idea
coming?"
 jp  says, "and PLEASE get the messages working correctly"
 oink says, "well, so far, jan is the only one who has mailed me"
 oink says, "so i guess I'll have to build a proposal on her and my
fellings alone"
 jp  says, "hehe"
 oink says, "feelings"
  j    says, "with specific projectives?"
 jp  says, "nothing more than . . "
  j    says, "hmmm"
 oink says, "but what you said jan is very valid"
 oink says, "we only need whats necessary as a songwriting tool"
 oink says, "I think"
 jp  says, "yes with vst plug ins that is where rocket shines"
 jp  says, "forget production . . . until later"
 oink says, "but a better sounding collection of instruments than GM"
 j  says, "we need to make this group have power to reach the people
who change the programming"
 oink says, "well we do a little"
  j   says, "or add at least"
D  joined the Session.
 jp  says, "really . . i sometimes wonder oink"
 BB   says, " j   - that's what the beta program is for"
  j   says, "which beta program?"
 jp  says, "i hope so anyway . . (-:"
D  says, "HIYA!"
 jp  says, "hi dj"
  l says, "hi DJ"
 BB   says, "Rocket's platinum beta program"
 oink says, "a report of this goes to kimberly who is in charge of PR
and
can bring up what we have discussed with the people who matter, and of
course brett has influence on the technical side"
 oink says, "hi DJ"
  j   says, "so this need to go to emagic"
 BB   says, "We're gonna gear up for getting all this to the
programmers this week"
  j   says, "and rocket"
 jp  says, "so BRETT messages and favourites please"
 BB   says, "COUNT ON IT!"
  l says, "I don't suppose there's any way of a contributors name
being automatically put on the audio tracks?"
 BB   says, "Check out the next Query topic tomorrow"
 jp  says, "k"
 oink says, "cool"
 jp  says, "u can put your name on them in logiv"
 jp  says, "logic . . lynn"
  l says, "I know but you can't rely on ppl to do that"
  l says, "I have tracks who I've no idea who posted them"
 jp  says, "and in the audio window u can see their names"
 jp  says, "as owners"
 oink says, "we had some discussion of that in beta"
 jp  says, "view . .info"
 jp  says, "etc"
 oink says, "it didn't go as far as it could"
  l says, "no once the session has left the studio some of the
names aren't saved"
 oink says, "but it requires some sort of branding really"
  l says, "if ppl don't name their tracks properly all can be lost
:("
 oink says, "otherwise we could run out of space for other important
info
that need to be in a trackname"
  l says, "can't you get the names to stay in logic plat like they
do in Rocket?"
 oink says, "well, if we had a session-associated mailing list"
 oink says, "we can send people gentle reminders to name their tracks"
  l says, "that would solve the problem."
  l says, "but the mailing list needs to be produced automatically
as a person posts"
 oink says, "does logicrocket do that ?"
 oink says, "I didn't realise"
  l says, "yes logic rocket keeps the names"
  l says, "plat doesn't"
 BB   says, "???"
 oink says, "hmm"
  l says, "yes I thought it was strange too :("
 BB   says, "perhaps i missed something - usernames do appear on
tracks"
 BB   says, "in plat"
 oink says, "not offline"
  l says, "yes but only whilst it is in session"
 BB   says, "true"
 BB   says, "lots of logistical problems there in terms of offline"

 c   says, "seems to work offline in cubase"
 oink says, "on some but not all"
 BB   says, "Steinberg is not following Rocket guidelines"
  j   says, "what rocket guidelines?"
  l says, "so, failing that...what we need is an automatically
generated mailing list where your name is added as you post"
 c   says, "i like the idea of being posted when theres updates
on a session..or being given the option if you want to be updated"
  j   says, "and please tell me, if you can, what rocket guidelines are"

  j   says, "brett"
 oink says, "in mac version of logicRocket I can't see usernames
offline"
  l says, "oh?"
 BB   says, "Sorry.... Steinberg does not use the Rocket Object
Model in their implementation... the use what are known as "Custom
Objects" for almost everything"
  j   says, "now i understand--thanks"
 BB   says, "I'll inquire about how Steinberg gets usernames to
show offline"
  j   says, "otherwise lap and cubase could talk"
  j   says, "that'd be nice"
 c   says, "ill need to look abit closer at that...it seems to
happen "sometimes""
 oink says, "yeh, i think it shows usernames sometimes and unknown other

times"
 oink says, "even within multiple tracks from teh same user"
  l says, "Hey I have an idea..."
 BB   says, "hmmm"
 oink says, "it is definitely automatic too"
 oink says, "I just opened a cubase session wher a bunch of empty tracks

have a username"
D  says, "good"
  l says, "When someone posts to a session...could it
automatically post a text file to a session log...showing the username,
email address, track name, date and time of the post.?"
  j   says, "so, this started talking about a notepad app that could be
used to add lyric in an arrangement --  in LAP
right?                    oink, just say yes or no--i'm trying to keep
my place"
 oink says, "not exactly"
 c  says, "i know its not ideal lyn but you can do a print
screen for now"
  j   says, "can you clarify?"
 BB   says, "brb"
 oink says, "as far as lyrics go I suggested an extra fiels in chat for
a
scratch-sheet"
 jp says, "brb"
 oink says, "we are talking more general terms for that"
  l says, "Yes...that's wot I've started doing but I have missed a
few."
D  says, "(A handy thing would be if the notepad info in  cubase
was saved to the server, so everyone could make notes, and read each
others)"
 oink says, "same with the marker text in logic"
D  says, "(same for logic if not all ready happening)"
  l says, "That's what logic needs too"
 oink says, "but I think there are programming difficulties with that"
D  says, "Thought as much"
 oink says, "what we also said was that there should be more room for
session notes"
D  says, "definitly"
  l says, "I'll second that"
 oink says, "and  brett suggested a miling list associated with a
session"

 oink says, "mailing"
  l says, "I suggest an automatically generated session log"
 oink says, "which would be good too"
 oink says, "it can be done, cause you get that info from your account"
  l says, "a session log would solve all the problems at once."
  l says, "except for the lyrics!"
 oink says, "but only after the end of the month, which is a bit late
IMHO"
 oink says, "and that feature isn't working in my case, at the moment"
D  says, "Session log: great idea!"
 oink says, "it all will contribute to keeping collaborations more
on-track"
 oink says, "so a summary of what we have suggested so far"
 oink says, "#1 bring back favourites"
 BB   is back
 oink says, "#2 a mailing list associated with a session"
 oink says, "#3 more room for notes"
  l says, "With a session log info you could see the exact dat and
time of the posting as well as username, Email addy and track name. A
bit like the Hotline downloads log, oink."
D  says, "have fun mark, just ask if you have any probs"
 BB   says, "these are all very good suggestions"
 oink says, "#4 anyone who has contributed be able to edit notes"
 oink says, "maybe 2 note fields"
 BB   says, "yes"
 oink says, "one for owner one for contributors"
D  says, "i'm with that"
 BB   says, "agreed"
  l says, "cool"
D  says, "initial notes, + ongoing notes for contributors"
 oink says, "#5 a scratch window supplementary to chat for lyrics"
 oink says, "like a pvt chat but everyone can see it"
D  says, "like a test board for lyric ideas yeah?"
  l says, "I think the lyrics should be within thew session"
  l says, "not on chat"
 oink says, "#6 automatic logging of the session postings"
 oink says, "well, if we had a scratch window, it could then be posted
to
session ??"
 oink says, "or have both"
  l says, "ok"
 oink says, "otherwise you need to refresh the browser when you add a
line"
 oink says, "#7 was there a  #7 ??"
 BB   says, "Hey all... I have to go - very good session!"
 oink says, "oh #7 usernames on tracks or sequences offline"
 BB   waves to all
 MixMasterMark has left the Session
 oink says, "or maybe a user ID #"
  l says, "I have a number 7 but I know its not possible..."
 oink says, "bye brett :)"
  j   says, "g night brett"
 oink says, "what is it lynn ?"
  l says, "bye brett"
 BB   says, "cya... gonna leave my chat running. Take care, all"
 oink says, "we aren't programmers so we don't know the limits ;)"
  l says, "I would like to be able to save mixes in session and
post them to others who have their receive mix enabled"
 oink says, "sounds good"
  l says, "at the moment a mix can't be saved because the track is
locked"
 oink says, "that could be associated with the session-associated
mailing
list"
  l says, "you can only post an overall level not a mix"
 oink says, "oh i see"
 oink says, "a mixdown track"
  l says, "not a mixdown track"
 oink says, "yes, i would like that too"
 oink says, "alternate mixes"
  l says, "no ...changes to the mix in session...not as an MP3"
 oink says, "and they be posted as a regular track"
 oink says, "by any user"
  l says, "yes you could do it that way."
 oink says, "and you can choose which to play"
  l says, "yes that would be cool"
 oink says, "well mix automation is just a midi track"
  l says, "true"
 oink says, "but it would take a kinda hi-hat mode"
  l says, "whaddya mean?"
 oink says, "where on automatically shuts out any other mix automation"
 oink says, "at the moment"
 oink says, "if you post a mix automation track"
 oink says, "it will play along with any other recorded automation"
 oink says, "so it will be a mess of conflicting midi"
 oink says, "I'm sure there must be a way to do what you suggest"
  l says, "I see...but you can't post a mix automation track
unless it is only your tracks that you are automating"
 oink says, "true, but not completely"
 oink says, "you can take ownership of the other tracks"
  l says, "how?"
 oink says, "or your copies"
 oink says, "and then mix those whaich would be on the sames"
 oink says, "same channels"
  l says, "I do copies when I come to mix it down but you don't
really want to go to that trouble in session"
 oink says, "do you not know about the unlock switch ?"
  l says, "no?"
 oink says, "oh right"
 oink says, "yes thats waht I mean"
  l says, "oh..ok"
 oink says, "like when you do mixdown"
 oink says, "but  , yes it would be better not to have to go to those
lengths"
  l says, "yes...but it isn't convenient in session...all I want
to do is get a rough mix to everyone fairly quickly"
 oink says, "yes, agreed"
  l says, "some ppl have no idea about mixing and have to suffer
with tracks at odd levels"
 oink says, "well we brought taht up on the beta list a few weeks back"
  l says, "can be offputting when you are recoding something"
 oink says, "or i did anyway"
  l says, "we had that problem in the session I was in tonight"
 oink says, "its a matter of regarding the producer as collaborator"
 oink says, "just like a musician"
 oink says, "so even a 3rd party could lay down a mix track"
  l says, "Music1961's vocal track was at two different levels and
he wanted to hear it balanced out...I couldn't do it with his track"
 oink says, "which would be way handy"
 oink says, "I know what you mean"
  l says, "exactly...A producers track"
 oink says, "in a commercial sense it would be good too"
 oink says, "one could hire someone to do a mix track"
 oink says, "wheer a session was just a group of musicians who are
novices
at mixing"
  l says, "in fact if you could work it so the producer is a
designated status on a session, he could override the post.receive mix
settings of the other users"
 oink says, "thats what we are talking about"
 oink says, "the whole mix"
  l says, "cool"
D  says, "excellent"
 oink says, "but mix automation can do that"
 oink says, "just record all teh settings in teh beginning of teh
automation sequence"
  l says, "yes. Obviously everyone had the potential to be able to
do that now."
 oink says, "though it would be good to go one step further and be able
to
change plugins"
 oink says, "or at least add pluginds and bypass whats set"
  l says, "Yes I meant to include that earlier."
  l says, "because if you are using real time plugins its not as
if you are destrying the collaborators track anyway."
  l says, "because you are not writing to it"
 oink says, "thats right"
  l says, "the individual can still choose to delete them
afterwards"
 oink says, "hmm maybe reassigning tracks could do that"
  l says, "so you should be able to have full control over a real
time mix"
 oink says, "one fresh set reserved for producer"
 oink says, "i mean channels of course"
 oink says, "audio objects"
 BB   continues to collect data from the alien transmission
  j   checks radiation levels
 oink says, "hmm IE is messing up on my other machine"
  l says, "in a public session situation...if someone is
designated as the person to post rough mixes in session they should be
given full control over all aspects of the mix and automation"
 oink says, "right, thats what we tossed around on the beta list"
  j   says, "are you sure lyn?"
  l says, "yes"
 oink says, "not specifically for public sessions, but sessions in
general"
  j   says, "so -- i play my best solo ever"
  j   says, "and you cut it up?"
 oink says, "that the owner could assign that power"
  l says, "if someone doesn't want to receive the mix they can
just set their preferences to not receive."
  j   says, "as if i care, long as you pay me"
  j   says, "sort of"
  l says, "no...not cutting up...only mixer settings"
  l says, "not audio editing"
  j   says, "i agree"
  j   says, "those who mix should have full control of the mix"
  l says, "yes that's the idea...at the moment you are very
restricted on doing rough mixes in session"
  l says, "you can't do anything to locked tracks"
  l says, "you cant save automation, or plugins"
  j   says, "i think this is a matter of paying for bandwidth that
allows
a producer to hire music (for hire) and then has ultimate control"
  l says, "I don't think it even needs to be a special mode. I
think anyone in session upon agreement can choose to be the mix
engineer"
 oink says, "but that is only one aspect"
 BB   says, "producer mode would allow track ownership exchange
among other things"
 oink says, "we ahve groups of users here who would dearly love someone
other than the session owner be able to do a mix"
  l says, "exactly"
  j   says, "for the most part, as a musician, -- i either want to be
bought out--for a reasonable ammount, or----i'd rathe not give my
intellectual property away"
 BB   says, "trans... mission... breaking... up..... must...
check... heisenberg.... compensators"



       1. 1 bring back favourites
       2. 2 a mailing list associated with a session
       3. 3 more room for notes
       4. 4 anyone who has contributed be able to edit notes [maybe 2
          note fields, one for owner one for contributors or initial
          notes, + ongoing notes for contributors]
       5. 5 a scratch window supplementary to chat for lyrics. Like a
          pvt chat but everyone can see it. [And even the facility to
          post the lyric directly to session notes, maybe]
       6. 6 automatic logging of the session postings [With a session
          log info you could see the exact date and time of the posting
          as well as username, Email addy and track name.]
       7. 7 usernames on tracks or sequences offline, or maybe a user ID

       8. 8 a personal 'to do' list for users