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Re: [L-OT] The Terrorists of Tomorrow

Re: [L-OT] The Terrorists of Tomorrow

2001-10-11 by GAmoore@aol.com

Here is a recipe for a terrorist. Take a group of people - make them dirt 
poor, and uneducated. Indoctrinate them with hatred for the richest and 
most powerful countries. Have them suppressed by thier own government or 
an occupying force to dehumanize them and give them no hope for a decent 
life. Have a religion that can be interpreted to grant salvation for 
death in battle, even if battle means killing civilians in a sneak attack.


>Terrorists do not come from nowhere?
>Terrorists do not fight over nothing?

Re: [L-OT] The Terrorists of Tomorrow (long)

2001-10-11 by cas@s.netic.de

--- In logic-ot@y..., GAmoore@a... wrote:
> Have a religion that can be interpreted to grant salvation for 
> death in battle, even if battle means killing civilians in a sneak 
attack.

Now, I wasn't going to write anything else, until I read this . This 
is written from a person who OBVIOUSLY knows nothing about 
this religion, Islam. No, he didn't say Islam specifically, but it was 
implied.

What bothers me is how people can make assumptions about 
Islam, or other non Christian religions for that matter, yet cannot, 
or do not, take a look at their own religion. I read the above 
comment, and thought to myself  "Crusades". Was the fact that 
thousands of Muslims were killed during the Crusades, 
because of Christians trying to promote their 'superior religion' 
ever taken into account? Or the fact that Christians have been 
using Bible scripture to justify slavery and hatred towards 
Africans for hundreds of years, and that many right wing 
extremists and white supremacists still use the Bible today to 
propagate their hated of Jews and other minority groups? I doubt 
it. 

Have you actually READ the Koran? I have, although I was raised 
a Christian.

My point is that Islam does not corner the market on fanaticism; 
one only has to look at the Northern Ireland conflict as proof.
Islam, like Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, or 
whatever, is a peaceful religion. It's the people who practice 
religion who make it what it is.

Case in point:
I'll never forget watching Larry King Live on CNN International two 
weeks ago. The topic was what role religious leaders could play 
in helping people to deal with what happened on Sept.11. His 
guests were A Methodist minister, A Muslim scholar, A Jewish 
rabbi, a Catholic priest, and the head of a large Baptist 
congregation in the southern US. They were discussing the 
possibility of leaders of the different faiths coming together to 
find some ways to educate the public on what the different faiths 
have in common. The Baptist kept ranting and raving about 'God 
being the one true God, and his son Jesus Christ, who died for 
our sins,' etc.etc.etc. , with the Muslim and the Jew sitting right 
next to him. At that moment, I was embarrassed to be a 
Christian, because he demonstrated what the Muslims' main  
gripe is against Christianity: a lack of respect for their faith. A 
billion people can't all be wrong.

Instead of theorizing on who what the terrorists of tomorrow will 
look like or from what part of the world he / she will come from, 
we need to collectively do find common ground with those who 
differ from us politically,economically, and religiously, to make 
sure that Sep.11 never happens again.

Charles Simmons
African-American, politically enlightened, Christian raised, Koran 
and Torah -versed, underpaid, over enthusiatic,
R&B Singer in exile, in Germany.  :-)

Re: [L-OT] The Terrorists of Tomorrow (long)

2001-10-11 by GAmoore@aol.com

In a message dated 10/11/01 12:41:31 AM, cas@... writes:

>Now, I wasn't going to write anything else, until I read this . This 
>is written from a person who OBVIOUSLY knows nothing about 
>this religion, Islam. 


You assume too much. The Koran has some passages which can be construed a 
certain way, however, the basic religion is peaceful. I'm sure its much like 
the bible - a rambling bunch of dialog which is self-contradictory and can be 
interpretted in many different ways. I don' blam Islam in general, but what I 
do blame is that most Islamic people are poor and oppressed - not by the US 
or Europe but by their own dictors or mullahs or ayatolahs. The fact of the 
matter is that there are about a billion Muslims who incorrectly attribute 
all that is wrong in the world to the US. And clearly we saw some evidence of 
that on sept 11.

One part of a 'new world order without terrorism' is to have true leaders of 
Islam teach the message of peace, love, and tolerance rather than hatred and 
death to America. Another part is to economically develop Palestine, Jordan, 
Egypt, Pakistan, and post-Saddam Iraq. This includes education and business 
opportunities to become selfsufficient on more than just oil exports.

Re: [L-OT] The Terrorists of Tomorrow (long)

2001-10-11 by maakbow@hotmail.com

> I read the above 
> comment, and thought to myself  "Crusades". Was the fact that 
> thousands of Muslims were killed during the Crusades, 
> because of Christians trying to promote their 'superior religion' 
> ever taken into account? Or the fact that Christians have been 
> using Bible scripture to justify slavery and hatred towards 
> Africans for hundreds of years, and that many right wing 
> extremists and white supremacists still use the Bible today to 
> propagate their hated of Jews and other minority groups? I doubt 
> it. 

As I have posted before, I suspect, and am firly sure of this , that 
the Militant Islamic Terrorists do not really represent Islaam.

But something I KNOW is that the crusaders and for that matter ANYONE 
who kills, murders, justifies slavery,and all else you mention above, 
and in the words of Jesus, even "hates his brother" Is not a 
Christian, and do not represent Christians at all.  

> 
> Have you actually READ the Koran? I have, although I was raised 
> a Christian.

Then You should know this.
> 
> My point is that Islam does not corner the market on fanaticism; 
> one only has to look at the Northern Ireland conflict as proof.
> Islam, like Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, or 
> whatever, is a peaceful religion. It's the people who practice 
> religion who make it what it is.


It's definitely the people, but maybee the people you mean, are the 
people Who DON'T PRACTICE what they preach.

Maak Bow

Re: [L-OT] The Terrorists of Tomorrow (long)

2001-10-11 by cas@s.netic.de

--- In logic-ot@y..., maakbow@h... wrote:

> 
> As I have posted before, I suspect, and am firly sure of this , 
that 
> the Militant Islamic Terrorists do not really represent Islaam.
> 
> But something I KNOW is that the crusaders and for that matter 
ANYONE 
> who kills, murders, justifies slavery,and all else you mention 
above, 
> and in the words of Jesus, even "hates his brother" Is not a 
> Christian, and do not represent Christians at all.  
> 

Exactly.

> > Have you actually READ the Koran? I have, although I was 
raised 
> > a Christian.
> 
> Then You should know this.

I do. Many others don't, or refuse to acknowledge this. That's my 
point.

> > My point is that Islam does not corner the market on 
fanaticism; 
> > one only has to look at the Northern Ireland conflict as proof.
> > Islam, like Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, or 
> > whatever, is a peaceful religion. It's the people who practice 
> > religion who make it what it is.
> 
> 
> It's definitely the people, but maybee the people you mean, are 
the 
> people Who DON'T PRACTICE what they preach.

Exactly. which is why it pisses me off that the Taliban, Osama bin 
Laden and others are profaning Islam in this manner, and that 
many of the uninformed in the West see Osama bin Laden's 
diatribes as being represntative of Islam, which it isn't. No matter 
how many times this is repeated, many people simply will not 
get this, and continue to believe that all Muslims share these 
radical views.

Charles

Re: [L-OT] The Terrorists of Tomorrow (long)

2001-10-11 by cas@s.netic.de

--- In logic-ot@y..., GAmoore@a... wrote:

> matter is that there are about a billion Muslims who incorrectly 
attribute 
> all that is wrong in the world to the US. And clearly we saw 
some evidence of 
> that on sept 11.

IMO this is another false assumption. There is actually a 
proportionally small number of those 'billion Muslims' who think 
that. They just happen to be very vocal about it. 

Even if what you say were true, I don't even think that this belief is 
that far off the the mark, when one looks at US government policy 
in the Arab / Muslim world over the last fifty years, starting with 
our support of Israel, our IMO meddiling in the affairs of Iran 
(talking about the CIA's involvment with the Shah of Iran's reign, 
and the Islamic revolution that followed) leading up to the Gulf 
War and the US enforced sanctions against Iraq, which have had 
ABSOLUTELY NO EFFECT on Saddam Hussein. 

All issues on public record, and all contributing factors to why 
many in the Arab / Muslim world have this animosity towards the 
US.

One thing you can say about the Arab / Muslim world; they tend to 
be more informed about American foreign policy (at least in that 
region) than Americans are. Pretty sad, actually. If we were so 
informed about the policies of our elected officials, we wouldn't 
be asking ourselves today why the world hates us so much.

JUST TO MAKE IT CLEAR: with that being said, there is NO 
JUSTIFICATION for what happened on Sept. 11th, as it not only 
affected the US, but the whole world.

Charles

Re: [L-OT] The Terrorists of Tomorrow (long)

2001-10-11 by Wilson Zorn

For what it's worth I took the phrase to mean Christianity as well as Islam.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> --- In logic-ot@y..., GAmoore@a... wrote:
> > Have a religion that can be interpreted to grant salvation for 
> > death in battle, even if battle means killing civilians in a sneak 
> attack.
> 
> Now, I wasn't going to write anything else, until I read this . This 
> is written from a person who OBVIOUSLY knows nothing about 
> this religion, Islam. No, he didn't say Islam specifically, but it was 
> implied.
>

Re: [L-OT] The Terrorists of Tomorrow (long)

2001-10-11 by Wilson Zorn

> War and the US enforced sanctions against Iraq, which have had
> ABSOLUTELY NO EFFECT on Saddam Hussein.
>

I keep hearing this but I don't get it - Hussein has been impacted greatly
by it; his ability to rebuild the military has been severely hampered and
he's had to fight more internal wars than he previously had to.  He has been
affected.

Re: [L-OT] The Terrorists of Tomorrow (long)

2001-10-11 by cas@s.netic.de

--- In logic-ot@y..., "Wilson Zorn" <wilson.zorn@a...> wrote:
> > War and the US enforced sanctions against Iraq, which have 
had
> > ABSOLUTELY NO EFFECT on Saddam Hussein.
> >
> 
> I keep hearing this but I don't get it - Hussein has been 
impacted greatly
> by it; his ability to rebuild the military has been severely 
hampered and
> he's had to fight more internal wars than he previously had to.  
He has been
> affected.

The impact that economic sanctions have had on Saddam 
Hussein are very small compared to the effect they've had on the 
Iraqi people, He's been selling oil illegally for years since the 
sanctions to rebuild his military, so even in that respect, it was a 
short term hit on his forces,so please explain to me how he has 
been affected other than militarily.

Take the Yugoslavia situation as an example. Sanctions were 
implemented on Yugoslavia (Slobodan Milosevic's regime), 
followed by a brief military action by NATO against Yugoslavia, 
the people of Yugoslavia and the opposition parties recognised 
the hardships imposed on them by Milosevic's policies, and in 
the next election, he was ousted. Sanctions played a role in that 
whole situation.

In Iraq, The opposition parties are weak at best, and the people 
seem to stand more behind Saddam than before the Gulf War. 
His military may not be as effective as before the war, but It's still 
there. So is Saddam. Therefore, sanctions didn't work against 
Saddam. In fact, IMO the sanctions backfired, because they not 
only left Saddam Hussein still in power, they helped to form the 
current feeling of animostiy towards the US from other Musilm / 
Arab countries, and used as an excuse for any terrorist 
organisation as justification for terrorist actions.

Charles Simmons

Re: [L-OT] The Terrorists of Tomorrow (long)

2001-10-11 by Dennis Gunn

At 9:17 AM +0000 10/11/01, cas@... wrote:
>
>  > It's definitely the people, but maybee the people you mean, are the
>>  people Who DON'T PRACTICE what they preach.
>
>Exactly. which is why it pisses me off that the Taliban, Osama bin
>Laden and others are profaning Islam in this manner, and that
>many of the uninformed in the West see Osama bin Laden's
>diatribes as being represntative of Islam, which it isn't. No matter
>how many times this is repeated, many people simply will not
>get this, and continue to believe that all Muslims share these
>radical views.

I don't necessarily think there is a feeling that they *all* do or 
even that *most* of them do.  There is just an awful lot of evidence 
that too god damned many of them do.  I really do not want to resent 
the Islamic creed but it would certainly be easier to avoid resenting 
it if some of the clerics would be a little quicker to renounce those 
supposedly within the faith who are abusing it.

As someone whose life has been very directly and negatively affected 
by Christian fundamentalism I can tell you that I could not agree 
more that Islamic fundamentalists have no monopoly on fucked up 
behavior.   But having said that it still does not excuse the fucked 
up behavior of Islamic fundamentalists.

I am pretty much an atheist or at least do not subscribe to any 
organized religion but it is interesting to note that Buddists rarely 
get accused of this kind of intolerance.
-- 


                                 Dennis Gunn
                                 Mightyjohn@...

                  check out  MIGHTY JOHN HENRY's album "hot air head"
                                                    info at
                        http://www.twics.com/~mightyjo/home.html

Re: [L-OT] The Terrorists of Tomorrow (long)

2001-10-11 by cas@s.netic.de

--- In logic-ot@y..., Dennis Gunn <mightyjohn@t...> wrote:
 
> I am pretty much an atheist or at least do not subscribe to any 
> organized religion but it is interesting to note that Buddists 
rarely 
> get accused of this kind of intolerance.



Probably because most Buddhists actually 'practice what they 
preach'.

Charles Simmons

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Re: [L-OT] The Terrorists of Tomorrow (long)

2001-10-12 by Wilson Zorn

----- Original Message -----
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: <cas@...>
To: <logic-ot@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 3:34 AM
Subject: Re: [L-OT] The Terrorists of Tomorrow (long)


> --- In logic-ot@y..., "Wilson Zorn" <wilson.zorn@a...> wrote:
> > > War and the US enforced sanctions against Iraq, which have
> had
> > > ABSOLUTELY NO EFFECT on Saddam Hussein.
> > >
> >
> > I keep hearing this but I don't get it - Hussein has been
> impacted greatly
> > by it; his ability to rebuild the military has been severely
> hampered and
> > he's had to fight more internal wars than he previously had to.
> He has been
> > affected.
>
> The impact that economic sanctions have had on Saddam
> Hussein are very small compared to the effect they've had on the
> Iraqi people, He's been selling oil illegally for years since the
> sanctions to rebuild his military, so even in that respect, it was a
> short term hit on his forces,so please explain to me how he has
> been affected other than militarily.
>

I did not say he had been affected other than militarily.  Thank you for
confirming my point.

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