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Re: [GEN] 24 bits vs. 96K

Re: [GEN] 24 bits vs. 96K

2002-02-15 by Jonathan Christensen

>> The difference is the quality of the quiter bits, providing
>> a more accurate depiction of the instrument being recorded.
>>
>> best,
>> Jon
>
>Which is an increase in dynamic range!
>
>Sorry, I was trying to keep the description less technical, and more in
>laymans terms, but the end result of going from 16 to 24 bits is being able
>to better hear dynamic range, as opposed to frequency response.

OK . .I concede. You guys are correct. I had to go re-read Bob Katz's
excellent site. www. digido.com

Still a little suspicious of this statement however,"24 bits will
let you hear the really loud sounds without compression".

best,
Jon

-- config--
Apple G4 Dual 800, 1.5 gig of ram, Mac OS 9.2.2, RME Hammerfall DSP/
Digiface, MOTU 2408, MOTU MTP AV (USB),  Apogee WC Master, Spirit Digital
328 (digital mixer/controller), ATI Radeon AGP, ATI Rage128 (second monitor).

Re: Pricing of upgrades

2002-02-18 by Jonathan Christensen

--- In logic-ot@y..., "Alexis Aiosa" <aiosa9@m...> wrote:

> > Why? The development time that went into the feature set of 4.0 has not
> depreciated. 
> > In fact it has *appreciated* because of all the added features and
> functionality that 
> > was impliemented in the the various 4.x subreleases for no additional
charge.
> 
> If you go out now and buy Logic Audio v4, you can still buy it for $479.00
> over the counter, then purchase the v5 upgrade for 150.00.  You are now
> paying 629.00. 

OK . . so far so good. Musician's Friend has 4.x listed for $479 (MSRP $799)




>Now you can still go out and find LA v5 for 699.00.

True. AudioMidi.com has Logic 5 preorder's for $699 (MSRP $949)



>That is
> a 70.00 dollar difference. 

Correct.


>So therefore, a slight advantage to the new
> user, because they saved 70.00. 

Incorrect. The new user is paying $699 as opposed to the 4.x/update user
who paid $629. How is this an advantage to the new user?



>However, if you take the value of 699.00
> for v5 and then minus the value of version 4 over the counter, it now totals
> to a 220.00 difference.  So, in effect, the pricing has gone down for LA v4.
>  In other words, IT is considered *Antiquated Technology* that is why it is
> cheaper to buy over the counter.

LOL! Antiquated compared to who? The competition? The 3.72 version you
are currently running? Let's not confuse simple retail strategies with
the longevity of technology.


> Now if you take the new price of today 949.00 (999.00 MSRP) for version 5
> and deduct the amount of version 4 at 479.00.  That is a 470.00 dollar
> difference.  

Wrong again. Logic 5 is $949 (MSRP) . . current street price of $699. Why
are you now mixing and matching suggested retail pricing and current
market pricing?


>Again, showing that version 4 is now priced as *Antiquated
> Technology*. 

Again wrong. Was there anything added to 4.x that was *removed* from 5.0
because it was too "antiquated"? The AMT? Surround support? Extra plug
ins? Please give me an example.


>So, your logic is flawed.  It has not *appreciated* it has
> effectively *depreciated* in value of current market place.  The truth
> being, it is v4 and sitting right next to it is v5.

No, my friend. Your logic is flawed, simply because
a. your numbers are incorrect
b. you like to compare suggested retail to street price whenyou think
it's a convenient way to prop up your fawlty argument.

Why not compare the MSRP of Logic 4, which was $799, against the current
street price of Logic 5, which is $699? Then you could say how great
Emagic is for giving away this "antiquated technology" for $100 less?
that's the exact same thing you just tried to do above.



> Now in using your method of thinking, since the price of v5 just went up
> from 699.00 to 999.00, 

Wrong again. Logic Platinum went from $799 list to $949 list.

Again, you can go to audiomidi.com and see the MSRP listed. I'll even
give you the URL since you don't seem to want to list any of your sources
for your numbers.

<http://www.audiomidi.com/common/cfm/product.cfm?Product_ID=431>



>then effectively what you are saying is, your upgrade
> from v4 to v5 should be 199.00.

Um . .nooooo. the cost of the upgrade is $149 . . the difference between
the old MSRP and the new MSRP. Actually they give us a $1 break. 


>The cost of an upgrade is usually roughly
> 28% of the over the counter price.

Stop right there. Sorry, but "usually" and "roughly" don't bode very well
when trying to compare 2 items. Well . . maybe apples and oranges ;-) Are
you a retailer? A software developer? What are you basing this 28% on . .
and why should Emagic automatically conform there business to it?



>So, in effect my upgrade is 399.00. 

Correct. The $249 upgrade fee we all paid going from 3.x to 4.x. And the
$150 upgrade fee to go from 4.x to 5.x. (I'll send you the extra dollar :-)



> Yes, but then you should be paying 199.00 and not 150.00.  Here is why...

Incorrect. You should be paying $249 to get from 3.x to 4.x and/or $150
to get from 4.x to 5.x.


> 1.  Your current upgrade path from v4 to v5 automatically is, 699 x 28% =
> 195.72, then round up and you have 199.00. 

What's $699 times 32%? There is no significance to 32% . . just another
random number. Somewhat like yours :-)


I'll just snip out the rest of your essay, because it deals with
imaginary numbers and more inaccurate comparisons between retail and list
prices.



> How is that effective judgement on Emagic's part?  Or yours, for that
> matter.

My judegment is fine. I bought my upgrade for 4.x when it first became
available. Same as I'm doing now with 5.0. For some odd reason you seem
to think that since you did not upgrade . . since you did not support
Emagic's years of development efforts that went into 4.x . . . that you
should now get them on sale. Just out of curiousity . .if you fail to pay
your taxes when due, do you think you'll save money in the long run?
Because those are old antiquated taxes . .and they should be on sale. And
because you are special and deserve to pay less than the rest of us did.



> No matter how I do it, if I bought the promotion or not.  The math here is
> not right.  No matter how one breaks it down.  I am still paying more than
> you.

You are only paying more now because you failed to make a payment last time. 


>Something is quite funky in paradise, and yet most don't see it.

No one is gonna understand your point, because your numbers are incorrect
and imaginary . .and you flip flop the parameters of your data to suit
your whim.

>It is
> like I have spell it out like "See Jane go to the store.  See Jane get
> ripped off by store clerk." 

If Jane would have paid for the incremental upgrade along the way . . .
Jane wouldn't have a big fat bill to pay now. But Jane doesn't see that.
Jane wants all of that work those silly developers did for years to be
free, or at reduced cost to her because she has been busy in the jungle
playing with her monkey.


later,
Jon

Re: Pricing of upgrades

2002-02-19 by Jonathan Christensen

> <Jonathan wrote something to which effectively turned into rant of denial,
> and still doesn't effectively use his objectivity to see the truth in
> Numbers. >
> 
> Oh okay, a slight faux pa for me, but hey and even bigger fuax pa for
> you...look again oh wise one.  It is 22% of the MSRP.  Don't think I am
> making this crap up.  Just because you failed in math doesn't mean that the
> truth of math doesn't work. 

LOL! I randomly pick a number of 32% and you sit there and try to figure
out it's deep meanings. There are no deep meanings, or failed math on my
part . . I just made up a number.

The bottom line is this . . you and I paid the same amount for Logic 3.x.
The upgrade to logic 4.x was $250. I paid it and you didn't. Now you want
it for less money . .well SORRY. It ain't gonna happen.
Those are the prices, and if you don't like it, you have the option to
walk away from Logic and try another program. But don't go blathering on
about how unfair it is that you have to come up with all this money now,
because you do not deserve to pay 1 bloody cent less than the rest of us
did for that upgrade. And all your imaginary facts, figures and retail
expertise will not change that.  You want to talk about injustice? I
suggest Nuendo Mac for you. It's MSRP is $1299. Try that program for
awhile :-)

good bye, God bless, have fun.

Jon

Re: Pricing of upgrades

2002-02-21 by Jonathan Christensen

> >> It is not a made up number...take a calculator and do it up.  
> 
> <jon wrote: Less but still inane garbage.>
> 
> >OK. Here's what I came up with. $249 + $150 = $399. Do you 
> >think you can read that?

<and Alex wrote no less inane garbage than he's been writing>


> Oh hey, that makes real sense.  Wow, why didn't I think of that!  Now I see.
>  Yah, right...NOT!

Wait . . . $249 + $150 does NOT = $399? I think you need a new battery in
your calculator :-)



> Real silly, boy, one day you are gonna get ripped off, and you won't know
> why.  And a person like me is going to be chuckling behind your back.

I honestly doubt I would feel ripped off by paying the same amount
everyone else has. And not just when the 3->4 upgrade was first
announced. That price was the same last week as well. If they continually
lowered the upgrade price on a monthly basis, as you would have them do .
 . who the hell would buy the upgrade when it was released? Nobody.
Well, if nobody buys the upgrade, because it gets cheaper and cheaper,
how the hell do they fund future development? Now that's smart business.
C'mon . . use your head.


Actually Alex . . I feel that Emagic's competition is a rip off in
*quality*. That's why I use Logic. I'm very happy to pay to keep that
quality intact, and the development cycle moving forward.



> So let's see, since this is the way you think...according to inflation rate
> calculations.
> 
> 249.00 was the price for v4 in 2000.
> 
> So therefore the price of upgrading from v4 to v5 should be the same, not
> changed, but increased based on the power of current inflation, and consumer
> price index and labor production.

Ahhhhh . .I see. You've signed on to some correspondance course in World
Economics. That explains a lot.


> (see the leap from v3.72 to v4.0, is not much larger than the leap from
> v4.8.1 to v5.0.  That is in between each upgrade.)

Are you talking from a standpoint of features added? Or simply the
difference you've calculated in the version numbers? :-)


> 
> Making your upgrade price, based on "your ideals" and inflation, total to
> 264.69.  Round up to 265.00, then add tax and shipping.

So, what's the problem? You say it should be $265 . . .sounds like $149
is a bargain. :-)



> So since 265.00 is not your price.  Now you received 42% reduction in price,

So . . you are saying that I am unjustly receiving a 42% discount . .
because the previous upgrade was $250, and this one really should be $265
according to your personal survey on the inflation rate of the entire
World, and silly Emagic is only selling this one is $149 . . .  ignoring
your profound business expertise???? Why, it's financial suicide, it is!!!

> even though, based on pricing and inflation you shouldn't.

Based on pricing? Who's pricing? Emagic set the price of this upgrade.
That was their business decision. They should have consulted you first?
Very nice of Emagic to give us this *very* fair upgrade price, I say!



> 265 x 42% = 153.7 then round down.  150.00
> 
> So therefore. My upgrade price is now.
> 
> 265.00 + 265.00 = 530.00

I think this is what you should pay. Just you though :-)


> Which then I should probably receive the same rate of 42% reduction on the
> upgrade price. 
> 
> 265.00 + 150.00 = 415.00  then round down to 399.00
> 
> Yet, since we both get a 42% reduction in price on the upgrade.  There is no
> price reduction for v4 upgrade, hmmm, that is odd.  Which by today's market
> value, once driven off the lot, the price goes down 50%.

Perhaps if the intellectual property has actually depreciated. It has
not. I invited you to give me *one* example of a feature that was
introduced in version 4 . .or any version 4 subrelease that was removed
from version 5 because it was "antiquated". You failed to reply. There is
a reason for that. There isn't any. Just because an individual dealer has
overstock, or stock in older packaging . . that does not degrade the
value of the intellectual property contained within. There is no physical
wear and tear on intellectual property . . so your automobile reference
is laughable. Only when it's concepts become eclipsed by competing
products, would it depreciate. This has not happened.


>But if a
> dealer/manufacturer holds on to the product, each year equates about a rough
> estimate of 25% (or more) reduction in price.  So therefore the price of the
> v4 upgrade has devalued to the open market roughly 50 to 60 percent.

What an individual dealer does is his own business. He may sell something
for less than cost. That has nothing to do with Emagic. They set a MSRP
and a dealer cost. What price the consumer pays between those 2 numbers
is up to the individual dealer, and has no bearing on the current worth
of the intellectual property contained within.



> 799(MSRP) x 60% reduction = 479.00 
> (which roughly means that Emagic has now sold v4 for 339.00 to 399.00 to the
> retailer.  Allowing for 15-30 percent markup for the retailer.)

They may have sold it to the dealer for that cost the entire time. Who
knows? Do you?


 
> So in fact, v4 has effectively devalued over the open market

Wrong again. It's only the packaging which has aged. The intellectual
property contained within remains competitive, and leading edge in many
instances. I gave you another example . . Nuendo. This is a competing
product which sells for $1299 MSRP. It contains some slightly different
audio handling, and nowhere near the midi integration that Logic has. In
fact, the specific Logic version you say has depreciated on the market,
offers many, many more features. And yet it's MSRP is $500 less than that
of Nuendo ($300 less for Logic 5). See, your buddies over at Steinberg,
with the release of Nuendo for $1299 MSRP, instantly made the value of
Logic, and any other competitor's products with similar features go UP.

Ever hear of supply and demand? How about "what the market will bear"?


<snipped out flawed Logic>

> So again, your logic is flawed. 

I think not. You don't want to offer any information on *exactly* what
technical aspects of Logic have depreciated (none) . .nor do you want to
compare it to what the competition is selling their product for. In other
words, you are being short sighted to suit your own argument.


>You have failed to provide any pragmatic
> information to prove otherwise. 

I think not. See above.


>You just blab on and on with no concept of
> anything,

Speaking of "blabbing"!!! You could have finished that correspondance
course in Economics in the time you've typed up all the drivel you've
laid forth in the last week.



>except that people should pay what you paid two years ago. 

That's the price set by Emagic. Pay it or don't. I don't care one way or
the other. On a list of 7000+ subscribers, they have exactly one person
squawking (you) about the price of jumping for 3 to 4 being the same as
it was. They'd have a *lot* more people squawking (the other 6999) if
they decided to lower that price by 42%, just for you.



>That
> is your only excuse.  Yet you don't realize that one day, the concept will
> backfire in your face.

And of that happens . . I most certianly won't waste my time on the
internet trying to convince those who paid full price, of my most
horrendous plight. I would pay it . . or I would move to another program.
Simple.


>Your reasoning is not reasoning, but naive thinking
> to what is current in the market.

How would you know what's current? you're still on 3.5? :-)

Honestly Alex . .this has been fun . . . but you should seriously
consider getting a refund for that correspondance course, and either put
it towards your Logic upgrade . .or stick it in your piggy bank so you
can save up for Nuendo.


good luck whatever road you decide to travel,

Jon

P.S. Guess what? . . it's still $249 to get from 3-> 4 and $149 to get
from 4->5 :-)

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