The Logic Off Topic list

Mark Lennox wrote:
 
> Has anyone any experience using this keyboard/controller?
> What are the drivers like for PC (Win98se / Win2000)?
> What is the midi interface like?

I have not actually used an Oxygen8 yet but the price and features (8
programmable knobs, 2 octaves of *full sized* keys, etc) of the Oxygen8
are unmatched unless you want to pay two times as much or more for a
keyboard.

> I also need to get a new MIDI interface soon too as I am udating my system
> to Win2000 and the crappy Portman I have doesnt have any win2k drivers (and
> never plans to!!). WHat is a good 2x2 system? Preferably cheap and non-USB?
> (I have heard that USB suffers from timing problems - is this true?)

USB *can* suffer from timing problems, yes - if at all possible it is
always better to use a serial MIDI interface. However if you do need to
use a USB interface, an Emagic interface is *definitely* the way to go
if you're using Logic, as Emagic has overcome the timing problems of USB
with their interfaces. If you have a serial connection though (which
just about any 'regular' non-laptop computer will have) it's a lot more
stable to just plug the MIDI interface into a serial port.

I've heard from a few people who've had problems with drivers of MidiMan
interfaces, though I'm not sure what OS they were using and if it was
over USB or not.. Personally I still plan to get a Midiman 8x8 once the
1x1 midi I/O my current sound card has is not enough. MidiMan is one of
the first companies to offer OsX drivers for their products so I'm
pretty sure with that sort of attitude for new operating systems they
have drivers for WinXP/Win2k that work just fine. 

Cheers
Jeremy

I have used the Oxygen 8 for a week (demoing Logic, so it was most likely
exactly what you'd use it for) any my advice would be NOT to get it.
While M-Audio/Midiman certainly is doing great audio cards, this thing just
seems to be not worth it.
The drivers were crappy, causing lots of system reboots (no way to get them
back without a reboot under Win2k) and hardware quality was less than what
I'd call acceptable (and I'm not even a true keyboard player by myself).
Pitchbend data for whatever reason was thinned out (most likely to take some
burden off the USB bus, but it seems you can't change that when using it as
a plain MIDI controller), causing some bad stepping effects when using
higher bendrange settings, the PB wheel itself started to hang a notch below
zero position on day No.3 every now and then, so there was often some PB
data being sent out continuosly.
And while it might be nice to have all those pots on it, they don't make use
of the 270\ufffd range they offer, but you loose a good amount in the end and the
beginning of the knob range, so the actually usable amount is more like 180\ufffd
or so.

Personally I can add that 2 octaves defenitely are not enough for me, not
even in an "occasional keyboarder" context. With 2 octaves it's impossible
to play any common chord voicings and add a bass with your left hand -
something I'm doing all the time.

Regarding the MIDI interface: Right now I'm using an MT4 which is working at
least OK, but there have been some problems installing it properly as
Emagics installer CDs seem to have recently changed and apparently the
installer is still looking for the older CDs file structure. I wasn't that
amazed but Emagic is aware of the problem and I'm sure they will fix it soon
or add at least some notes to the package.
No noticeable timing or whatsoever problems caused by USB, btw.

Regards,
Sascha

Thanks for your comments on this Sascha! I hope the tone of this message
isn't too "mean" or anything, I guess in a way I want to defend the Oxygen8
since I planned to buy one soon and don't want to have to figure out
something else to get instead. Nothing personal at all though :-) 

Sascha wrote:

> The drivers were crappy, causing lots of system reboots (no way 
> to get them back without a reboot under Win2k) 

Did you have the Oxygen8 plugged in via USB only or USB + MIDI cables? It
needs to be 'programmed' over USB right? What exactly were you doing to
cause the drivers to fail, just playing it (over USB or MIDI?) or trying to
program what CC's the knobs sent out etc (over USB only, right?)?

> and hardware quality was less than what I'd call acceptable (and I'm not 
> even a true keyboard player by myself). Pitchbend data for whatever 
> reason was thinned out (most likely to take some burden off the USB bus, 
> but it seems you can't change that when using it as a plain MIDI 
> controller), causing some bad stepping effects when using higher 
> bendrange settings, the PB wheel itself started to hang a notch below
> zero position on day No.3 every now and then, so there was often some PB
> data being sent out continuosly.

I saw your similar statement in the LapTopMusic group last week and asked
Orren about it (as he is the person I am going to buy an Oxygen8 from)... He
said that the PB wheel is a normal MIDI PB wheel so it sends out values up
to 128. I'm not sure what the choices are for the 'bendrange' but if you can
set it to send more than 128 values, since its only regular 7-bit MIDI of
course there's going to be stepping if you have it sending values up to 1000
or something. He also said that he's been using his Oxygen8 for months now
and he said the *only* problem he's had with his Oxy8 is that the
"MIDI/Select" button got "stuck" for one day, and he had to press it down
very hard to get the button to work. However the stuck key was working just
fine the next day and the problem didn't return. He also said there was no
datathinning going on at all - it acts like a normal PB wheel on a normal
synth. I was recording some automation using the PB wheel on my old Yamaha
DX100 synth the other day and noticed when I was moving the wheel a lot it
did look pretty "chunky" in Logic when making fast movements... So I really
don't think there's anything abnormal with the Oxygen8's PB wheel at all.
It's always possible to get a broken piece of equipment... Is your Oxygen8
still under warranty Sascha?

> And while it might be nice to have all those pots on it, they don't 
> make use of the 270° range they offer, but you loose a good amount 
> in the end and the beginning of the knob range, so the actually 
> usable amount is more like 180° or so.

Can you not turn the knobs the full 270° or does it just not send out proper
data at the 'edges'? That's a bit saddening to hear, but I was going to get
a Pocket Dial anyway:
http://www.doepfer.de/pd.htm

> Personally I can add that 2 octaves defenitely are not enough for 
> me, not even in an "occasional keyboarder" context. With 2 
> octaves it's impossible to play any common chord voicings and add 
> a bass with your left hand - something I'm doing all the time.

From the limited time I've been using Logic so far, I've always had a
separate track for the bass, and due to the limitation of only controlling 1
virtual instrument in real time I've always had to record bass separately
anyway... I guess this would matter more if we could control multiple
virtual instruments at once, but as it is, I hardly ever will use the same
instrument for chords as well as bass.

> No noticeable timing or whatsoever problems caused by USB, btw.

Were the crashes still as frequent? Again could you give me a little more
info about what would cause it to crash, just -using- it or trying to run
whatever program it comes with to configure it etc... ? 

I'm still planning on buying an Oxygen8 just because I need something that's
velocity sensitive for now, and the knobs would be somewhat nice (maybe,
after reading Sascha's comments) for a few weeks until I have a Pocket Dial
as well. From what I've seen other comparable MIDI keyboards are twice as
much $$, so I still think I'm going to get an Oxygen8. As soon as I can
afford it I want to get a "real" synth with aftertouch anyway which I can
use to controll virtual instruments etc as well.

Martin, Jeremy wrote:
> Did you have the Oxygen8 plugged in via USB only or USB + MIDI cables? It
> needs to be 'programmed' over USB right? What exactly were you doing to
> cause the drivers to fail, just playing it (over USB or MIDI?) or trying
to
> program what CC's the knobs sent out etc (over USB only, right?)?

A) I used it with USB, yes (that was the reason I have been using it because
there was not much space for additional MIDI interfaces). I didn't use any
"programming" or whatsoever (actually I don't even think that's possible,
all controller assignments can be done straight on the unit itself).

> the PB wheel is a normal MIDI PB wheel so it sends out values up
> to 128. I'm not sure what the choices are for the 'bendrange' but if you
can
> set it to send more than 128 values, since its only regular 7-bit MIDI of
> course there's going to be stepping if you have it sending values up to
1000
> or something.

See, I only care about what I hear, and there's some stepping happening when
doing large pitchbends on the Oxgen8.
I didn't change any of its settings, btw, all I did was using an EXS patch
with -24/+12 as its PB range and when I used the Oxygen there was massive
stepping audible, especially when going from -24 to 0, when I used my SY85
however there was no such stepping. Watching both data streams in Logic's
monitor after that proved my ears right, there's less steps being
transmitted from the Oxygen8.

> Is your Oxygen8
> still under warranty Sascha?

Don't know, it wasn't mine, was a borrowed one (as all the stuff I've been
using then).

> And while it might be nice to have all those pots on it, they don't
> make use of the 270\ufffd range they offer, but you loose a good amount
> in the end and the beginning of the knob range, so the actually
> usable amount is more like 180\ufffd or so.

> Can you not turn the knobs the full 270\ufffd

Yes you can, but...

> or does it just not send out proper
> data at the 'edges'?

... exactly that's what was happening.

> That's a bit saddening to hear, but I was going to get
> a Pocket Dial anyway:

Hm, maybe then you should just look for another keyboard.
I am thinking that the purposes for getting an Oxygen 8 were:
- No need to buy/install a MIDI interface/port. If you however have a port,
even a single one only (which is what even the cheapest soundcards do, using
an adapter cable), there's no need for any sort of USB keyboard, you can
just get any sort of used keyboard too - eventually saving some money and
getting better quality.
- Having a small, quick'n'dirty connectable thing for a portable solution,
along with a laptop. I admit, for that a solution such as the Oxygen 8 and a
Pocketcontrol is not bad. Err... "would" not be bad it the Oxygen offered
better hardware/driver quality.

I wrote:
>> With 2 octaves it's impossible to play any common chord voicings and add
>> a bass with your left hand - something I'm doing all the time.

> From the limited time I've been using Logic so far, I've always had a
> separate track for the bass, and due to the limitation of only controlling
1
> virtual instrument in real time I've always had to record bass separately
> anyway... I guess this would matter more if we could control multiple
> virtual instruments at once, but as it is, I hardly ever will use the same
> instrument for chords as well as bass.

I do exactly the same, but when trying out things it's certainly nice to
select, say, a piano/epiano patch and hear the chords in all their full
glory. I don't know whether I'm telling you the obvious, but many, many
"standard" (or "popular", whatever) keyboard voicings just don't contain any
root note (such as a Cmaj7 being used in an Amin9 context) and to check out
things you may want to play the bass note with the used patch too. At least
that's what I do all the time when I start to work out chords, and most
people I know do it the same or similar.

> Were the crashes still as frequent? Again could you give me a little more
> info about what would cause it to crash, just -using- it or trying to run
> whatever program it comes with to configure it etc... ?

As said, I have not seen any program on the Midiman CD coming with it and
the drivers were just quitting after some more or less obvious actions, such
as selecting another octave range. There was simply no more MIDI input
arriving in Logic.

> I'm still planning on buying an Oxygen8 just because I need something
that's
> velocity sensitive for now, and the knobs would be somewhat nice (maybe,
> after reading Sascha's comments) for a few weeks until I have a Pocket
Dial
> as well. From what I've seen other comparable MIDI keyboards are twice as
> much $$, so I still think I'm going to get an Oxygen8.

I have been using a very cheap used Yamaha PSR series keyboard for quite
some time, and while it didn't offer any knobs for additional tweakings, the
key quality was pretty much better than what you get from the Oxygen. The
Oxygen keys actually feel better, but I didn't like the velocity response at
all.

mikaeladle wrote:
> Theres a control keyboard called Evolution MK 249c 4 octaves and 12
> assignable knobs + mod and pitch are assignable as well. It is a usb
> keyboard also, and I\ufffdve heard positive response about it from
> different users. Might want to check it out.

The Evolution models indeed seem to be better than the Oxygen - but I
haven't tried them out by myself, so I won't comment on those any further.

Jeremy:
> What are "touch sensitive" keys though? "Touch sensitive" makes me think
> that the keys don't actually move but just sense your fingers touching
them,
> though I don't think that's really the case.. Just wanted to make sure.

I'm sure "touch sensitive" in this case just means that they offer velocity
response (pretty much an obvious thing).

Regards,
Sascha

Thanks for all the comments from everybody.

I still 'might' get the Oxygen8, even after Sascha's comments. I already
have a Korg X5 (yea, I know....) and all I really want is a knob tweaker
thing I can play some bass notes or pads with while sitting in the driving
seat, so to speak.

Sascha, you said you were using an environment to exapnd the bend range of
the wheel on the Oxygen8 - maybe thats where the 'thinning' of data is
occuring?? You may need to add a section that will ramp between large data
jumps for you with a pre-defined slew rate. Maybe Hendrick or Len would help
you out here? If not, my apologies, just a stab in the dark..

Looks like I'll be getting an MT4 too, thanks for the tip Jeremy. Same
configuration as my old interface only better!

thanks again all!

p.s. has anybody read/used 'The Jazz Theory Book' by Mark Levine? Whats it
like? I'm a rank amateur with shoddy theory and I dont get to play as much
as I like. Having said that I really want to have a broad knowledge of
theory that I can draw on when writing, but that wont swamp any native
cunning I might have - any tips???

:)

In other words sort my life out for me :-D

Thanks again
--
Mark Lennox
Technical Consultant
ENDUSER
Suite 40
Guinness Enterprise Centre
Taylors Lane
Dublin 8
Ireland
Tel: +353 1 4100 665
Fax: +353 1 4100 985
web: http://www.enduser.com
--
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sascha Franck" <saschafranck@...>
To: <logic-ot@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 6:05 AM
Subject: Re: [L-OT] GEN Midiman Oxygen 8


> Martin, Jeremy wrote:
> > Did you have the Oxygen8 plugged in via USB only or USB + MIDI cables?
It
> > needs to be 'programmed' over USB right? What exactly were you doing to
> > cause the drivers to fail, just playing it (over USB or MIDI?) or trying
> to
> > program what CC's the knobs sent out etc (over USB only, right?)?
>
> A) I used it with USB, yes (that was the reason I have been using it
because
> there was not much space for additional MIDI interfaces). I didn't use any
> "programming" or whatsoever (actually I don't even think that's possible,
> all controller assignments can be done straight on the unit itself).
>
> > the PB wheel is a normal MIDI PB wheel so it sends out values up
> > to 128. I'm not sure what the choices are for the 'bendrange' but if you
> can
> > set it to send more than 128 values, since its only regular 7-bit MIDI
of
> > course there's going to be stepping if you have it sending values up to
> 1000
> > or something.
>
> See, I only care about what I hear, and there's some stepping happening
when
> doing large pitchbends on the Oxgen8.
> I didn't change any of its settings, btw, all I did was using an EXS patch
> with -24/+12 as its PB range and when I used the Oxygen there was massive
> stepping audible, especially when going from -24 to 0, when I used my SY85
> however there was no such stepping. Watching both data streams in Logic's
> monitor after that proved my ears right, there's less steps being
> transmitted from the Oxygen8.
>
> > Is your Oxygen8
> > still under warranty Sascha?
>
> Don't know, it wasn't mine, was a borrowed one (as all the stuff I've been
> using then).
>
> > And while it might be nice to have all those pots on it, they don't
> > make use of the 270\ufffd range they offer, but you loose a good amount
> > in the end and the beginning of the knob range, so the actually
> > usable amount is more like 180\ufffd or so.
>
> > Can you not turn the knobs the full 270\ufffd
>
> Yes you can, but...
>
> > or does it just not send out proper
> > data at the 'edges'?
>
> ... exactly that's what was happening.
>
> > That's a bit saddening to hear, but I was going to get
> > a Pocket Dial anyway:
>
> Hm, maybe then you should just look for another keyboard.
> I am thinking that the purposes for getting an Oxygen 8 were:
> - No need to buy/install a MIDI interface/port. If you however have a
port,
> even a single one only (which is what even the cheapest soundcards do,
using
> an adapter cable), there's no need for any sort of USB keyboard, you can
> just get any sort of used keyboard too - eventually saving some money and
> getting better quality.
> - Having a small, quick'n'dirty connectable thing for a portable solution,
> along with a laptop. I admit, for that a solution such as the Oxygen 8 and
a
> Pocketcontrol is not bad. Err... "would" not be bad it the Oxygen offered
> better hardware/driver quality.
>
> I wrote:
> >> With 2 octaves it's impossible to play any common chord voicings and
add
> >> a bass with your left hand - something I'm doing all the time.
>
> > From the limited time I've been using Logic so far, I've always had a
> > separate track for the bass, and due to the limitation of only
controlling
> 1
> > virtual instrument in real time I've always had to record bass
separately
> > anyway... I guess this would matter more if we could control multiple
> > virtual instruments at once, but as it is, I hardly ever will use the
same
> > instrument for chords as well as bass.
>
> I do exactly the same, but when trying out things it's certainly nice to
> select, say, a piano/epiano patch and hear the chords in all their full
> glory. I don't know whether I'm telling you the obvious, but many, many
> "standard" (or "popular", whatever) keyboard voicings just don't contain
any
> root note (such as a Cmaj7 being used in an Amin9 context) and to check
out
> things you may want to play the bass note with the used patch too. At
least
> that's what I do all the time when I start to work out chords, and most
> people I know do it the same or similar.
>
> > Were the crashes still as frequent? Again could you give me a little
more
> > info about what would cause it to crash, just -using- it or trying to
run
> > whatever program it comes with to configure it etc... ?
>
> As said, I have not seen any program on the Midiman CD coming with it and
> the drivers were just quitting after some more or less obvious actions,
such
> as selecting another octave range. There was simply no more MIDI input
> arriving in Logic.
>
> > I'm still planning on buying an Oxygen8 just because I need something
> that's
> > velocity sensitive for now, and the knobs would be somewhat nice (maybe,
> > after reading Sascha's comments) for a few weeks until I have a Pocket
> Dial
> > as well. From what I've seen other comparable MIDI keyboards are twice
as
> > much $$, so I still think I'm going to get an Oxygen8.
>
> I have been using a very cheap used Yamaha PSR series keyboard for quite
> some time, and while it didn't offer any knobs for additional tweakings,
the
> key quality was pretty much better than what you get from the Oxygen. The
> Oxygen keys actually feel better, but I didn't like the velocity response
at
> all.
>
> mikaeladle wrote:
> > Theres a control keyboard called Evolution MK 249c 4 octaves and 12
> > assignable knobs + mod and pitch are assignable as well. It is a usb
> > keyboard also, and I\ufffdve heard positive response about it from
> > different users. Might want to check it out.
>
> The Evolution models indeed seem to be better than the Oxygen - but I
> haven't tried them out by myself, so I won't comment on those any further.
>
> Jeremy:
> > What are "touch sensitive" keys though? "Touch sensitive" makes me think
> > that the keys don't actually move but just sense your fingers touching
> them,
> > though I don't think that's really the case.. Just wanted to make sure.
>
> I'm sure "touch sensitive" in this case just means that they offer
velocity

> response (pretty much an obvious thing).
>
> Regards,
> Sascha
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>

Mark Lennox wrote:
> Sascha, you said you were using an environment to exapnd the bend range of
> the wheel on the Oxygen8 - maybe thats where the 'thinning' of data is
> occuring??

No, I was simply using an EXS patch, set to -24/+12, after that I was
A/B-ing the data input of both my SY85 and the Oxygen8, first I "only"
listened and then I also watched a MIDI monitor - same results, PB data gets
steppy.

> p.s. has anybody read/used 'The Jazz Theory Book' by Mark Levine? Whats it
> like? I'm a rank amateur with shoddy theory and I dont get to play as much
> as I like. Having said that I really want to have a broad knowledge of
> theory that I can draw on when writing, but that wont swamp any native
> cunning I might have - any tips???

I don't know how much of experience you have, from what I seem to remember
Levine's book is pretty much dealing with advanced things (even if it starts
almost at zero) but my brain might fool me on that.
In general (unfortunately) I know about no single theory book that I'd
recommend. If you were german I'd recommend a book by Frank Haunschild, but
I guess these haven't been translated yet.
Best thing to do is to get a bunch of theory books from a public library and
have a look which one is the most easy to read one - those often are the
best as well.

Regards,
Sascha

p.s. has anybody read/used 'The Jazz Theory Book' by Mark Levine? Whats it
  like? I'm a rank amateur with shoddy theory and I dont get to play as much
  as I like. Having said that I really want to have a broad knowledge of
  theory that I can draw on when writing, but that wont swamp any native
  cunning I might have - any tips???

I really like that book a lot, but if your theory is weak, it will be a slow (but not unpleasant)
read.  IMHO, it's not the only book you should have, but you should have it...

  -smeet



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In logic-ot@y..., "Sumit Das" <smeet@i...> wrote:
>   p.s. has anybody read/used 'The Jazz Theory Book' by Mark 
Levine? Whats it
>   like? 

excellent. the pages are just the correct thickness to make 
delicate roaches for my jazz cigarettes.

> jazz cigarettes.

Wonder if I could have one of those...

S.

--- In logic-ot@y..., "Sascha Franck" <saschafranck@s...> wrote:
> > jazz cigarettes.
> 
> Wonder if I could have one of those...
--

i could send you a file?

might cause some corruption though.

andy