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Re: [L-OT] Re: PC What to do now

Re: [L-OT] Re: PC What to do now

2002-07-01 by Joeri Vankeirsbilck

>
>
>Can we start a suggested "what to do next" thread?
>
I suggest to wait a bit longer.... it's too early.

>I use a lot of Sonic Foundry software.   Has anyone had experience with
>Vegas?
>
I'm using Acid. It can't replace Logic by far.

>If you have, any suggestion on a sequencer to go with it?  Or, is
>Steinberg the only good answer?
>
It looks like Steinberg is one of the very few viable alternatives. :-(

-- 
Joeri Vankeirsbilck
joeri@...

Belway Productions      -     http://www.belway.com
List-admin   Logic-users/SoundD*ver-users/Logic-TDM

Re: [L-OT] Re: PC What to do now

2002-07-01 by Jo & Lj Garrett

> >If you have, any suggestion on a sequencer to go with it?  Or, is
> >Steinberg the only good answer?
> >
> It looks like Steinberg is one of the very few viable alternatives. :-(

I bet steinberg are as happy as pigs in poo over this news!!

LjGarrett

Re: [L-OT] Re: PC What to do now

2002-07-01 by Murray McDowall

At 09:52 PM 1/07/02 +1000, you wrote:
>> >If you have, any suggestion on a sequencer to go with it?  Or, is
>> >Steinberg the only good answer?
>> >
>> It looks like Steinberg is one of the very few viable alternatives. :-(
>
>I bet steinberg are as happy as pigs in poo over this news!!

Imagine if Gates pulled the plug on Mac Office development. 

"As of September 30, 2002 you can kiss your ass goodbye Stevo"

That said, I am having increasing misgivings about M$ and I had hoped 
that in time Emagic might develop for Linux (or Be again -- who knows). 
By selling out their PC supporters Emagic appears to have painted itself 
into a shrinking corner of the market. 

Perhaps they are up against it in the competition with Steinberg, Sonar,
Vegas and Fruity and Orion etc at the low end. Maybe the thinking is that
by concentrating on one platform they can develop faster and using the new
audio systems supposedly arriving in forthcoming OSX versions they will be
able to escape the treadmill of playing catchup with Steinberg (VST2  and 3
is coming, ASIO etc).

You can see how Apple -- with Final Cut Pro and now
Emagic's software suite --  is trying to offer a compelling reason for
"content" developers to use its expensive and relatively underperforming
hardware now that a robust OS is available from M$. If it had bought Adobe
at some stage that would have fitted in nicely with the current strategy. 

Motorola makes only a fraction of its revenue from chips for Macs whereas
AMD and Intel are at it Hammer and tongs racing ahead with development on
X86 with Via, Transmeta and Nvidia in the equation somewhere too. That is
why the 680xO series had to be abandoned and the rate of development of
PowerPC has been embarassing over the last few years -- PowerPC kicked x86
butt for years in the mid 90s but that is all over now baby blue  -- the R
and D funding just isn't there for non x86 processors -- Sun, HP,IBM, DEC
-- all have/are falling by the wayside. 

One possible avenue of relief might be that Apple finally does the sensible
thing (what it should have done in the 80's) and becomes a software company
and release OSX on Opteron (SledgeHammer) or something -- which would offer
inexpensive high performance hardware on what one would hope would be a
decent OS. One reason why this is unlikely is that Jobs has a thing for
hardware -- he loves the design stuff by all reports and even involved
himself in designing factories in his Next days.

Just today I read a pretty nasty article about Apple's management of faults
with their equipment (disk drives, monitors, modems with dropouts to
BigPond, Australia's biggest ISP etc)  and OSX's lack of performance. (See
Bleeding Edge, Melbourne's  "The Age" Thursday last week). Not the sort of
thing that would make me want to spend between double and triple the money
(Australian prices) for a lesser performing machine.

Regards,
M

Re: [L-OT] Re: PC What to do now

2002-07-01 by Colin Miller

> Motorola makes only a fraction of its revenue from chips for Macs whereas
> AMD and Intel are at it Hammer and tongs racing ahead with development on
> X86 with Via, Transmeta and Nvidia in the equation somewhere too. That is
> why the 680xO series had to be abandoned and the rate of development of
> PowerPC has been embarassing over the last few years -- PowerPC kicked x86
> butt for years in the mid 90s but that is all over now baby blue  -- the R
> and D funding just isn't there for non x86 processors -- Sun, HP,IBM, DEC
> -- all have/are falling by the wayside.

I have an old 400Mhz Mac and a 1.5Ghz PC. While I am sure diagnostic software 
would show the PC has greater speed advantages, usability wise, I can detect 
no speed difference between the two. 

Colin Miller

Re: [L-OT] Re: PC What to do now

2002-07-02 by Murray McDowall

Colin Miller wrote:
>> Motorola makes only a fraction of its revenue from chips for Macs whereas
>> AMD and Intel are at it Hammer and tongs racing ahead with development on
>> X86 with Via, Transmeta and Nvidia in the equation somewhere too. That is
>> why the 680xO series had to be abandoned and the rate of development of
>> PowerPC has been embarassing over the last few years -- PowerPC kicked x86
>> butt for years in the mid 90s but that is all over now baby blue  -- the R
>> and D funding just isn't there for non x86 processors -- Sun, HP,IBM, DEC
>> -- all have/are falling by the wayside.
>
>I have an old 400Mhz Mac and a 1.5Ghz PC. While I am sure diagnostic software 
>would show the PC has greater speed advantages, usability wise, I can detect 
>no speed difference between the two. 

Not with one processor sitting in each palm anyway. ;-)

Try running instances of plugins (eg compressors -- I use a lot of them) or
synths/samplers in Logic. See which machine chokes first -- even die hard
Mac users have swapped platforms over this difference. 

BTW a 1.5 Ghz P4 (esp with SDRAM) is probably about the worst Intel machine
clock for clock in 10 years. 2Ghz+ Northwood P4s on RDRAM or DDR is a
different story.  G4 was stuck on 500 MHz for 18 months not to mention the
50Mhz downgrade after the announcements of the first machines. Motorola has
not been able to deliver adequately on performance scaling for the  G4 --
you can bet Jobs has a plan B.

Regards,
M

It all makes sense ...

2002-07-02 by Murray McDowall

Axis     of    Evil
Apple and Emagic
Cupertino and Hamburg
California Uber Alles
Holiday in Cambodia...

Yeah... 

Shrub -- I thought he was crazy -- but now it all makes sense ...

(shakes head a couple of times)

Wait a minute ...

Re: [L-OT] Re: PC What to do now

2002-07-02 by TazmnianDv@aol.com

Calm down. Your system works fine now. So use it. Later when you want to 
upgrade you can spend $1200 for a clearance of the entry level Powermac tower 
and sell you system used - and probably only be out a few hundred. My AMIII 
is cross platform and my converters (external Apogee) have nothing to do with 
either platform.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>Since 1996, I have been a loyal Emagic, Logic, and PC user.  Logic is the
>core of my studio.  Its rock solid.  I have tweaked the computer and truly
>learned the software.  What a horrible decision we have to make.  Spend
>$2000 on a new box (not mention a new audio interface and converters...)
>and
>have the joys of trying to make two different platforms work together and
>master a new OS, or throw away 6 years of knowledge and experience and
>$800
>and switch to a different program.

Re: [L-OT] Re: PC What to do now

2002-07-02 by TazmnianDv@aol.com

>Motorola makes only a fraction of its revenue from chips for Macs whereas
>AMD and Intel are at it Hammer and tongs racing ahead with development


Thats because they make powerpcs chips for many imbedded (non-computer) uses. 
Thats a good thing not a bad thing - keeps the costs down.

>the rate of development of
>PowerPC has been embarassing over the last few years -- PowerPC kicked
>x86
>butt for years in the mid 90s but that is all over now baby blue  


You can't judge by clock speed because the motorola (mac) processors get more 
done per clock cycle than do the Intels and AMD's. This is why a 1 gig mac is 
equivalent to a 1.5 gig Intel box. Read some comparison tests of the same 
program like Photoshop running on both systems.

Even if the mac were slightly slower, which I don't think it is-it would be 
worth it to me for the ease of use.

Re: [L-OT] Re: PC What to do now

2002-07-02 by Murray McDowall

At 04:04 AM 2/07/02 -0400, you wrote:
>>Motorola makes only a fraction of its revenue from chips for Macs whereas
>>AMD and Intel are at it Hammer and tongs racing ahead with development
>
>
>Thats because they make powerpcs chips for many imbedded (non-computer) uses. 
>Thats a good thing not a bad thing - keeps the costs down.

Embedded  chips aren't G4s with Altivec I would bet.

>>the rate of development of
>>PowerPC has been embarassing over the last few years -- PowerPC kicked
>>x86
>>butt for years in the mid 90s but that is all over now baby blue  
>
>
>You can't judge by clock speed because the motorola (mac) processors get more 
>done per clock cycle than do the Intels and AMD's. This is why a 1 gig mac is 
>equivalent to a 1.5 gig Intel box. Read some comparison tests of the same 
>program like Photoshop running on both systems.

Intel/AMD are faster on FPU and at least comparable on Integer. The
Photoshop test is not relevant -- you are looking at specific routines
coded for Altivec. 

Inform yourself -- read this link below and stop believing Apple bullshit.

http://www.sospubs.co.uk/sos/jul02/articles/qa0702.asp

>Even if the mac were slightly slower, which I don't think it is-it would be 
>worth it to me for the ease of use.

My attitude to Apple and Macs would in general be live and let live -- to
each his own -- it's the music that matters. 
Apple just bought my favourite music app and killed it on my platform. 

Regards,
M

Re: [L-OT] Re: PC What to do now

2002-07-03 by mercutio@cogeco.ca

>Try running instances of plugins (eg compressors -- I use a lot of them) or
>synths/samplers in Logic. See which machine chokes first -- even die hard
>Mac users have swapped platforms over this difference.

The question that comes to mind is: "why don't you run powercore or 
UAD ?" Then you could run even more compressors on either system.. 
that would be better - right?

Better yet - lets have an idea of your typical song - how many 
tracks, how many plugs, how many vsti's....

then the readers can decide a) if their system (on whatever platform) 
is up to your torture test and b) if they want to go there.

Actually - it sounds like you make insanely great music - got any mp3 
you would like to share with the group?

Re: [L-OT] Re: PC What to do now

2002-07-03 by Joeri Vankeirsbilck

>
>
>Actually - it sounds like you make insanely great music - got any mp3 
>you would like to share with the group?
>
Some people like to mix natively, others prefer to mix in a mixing 
desk... doesn't necessarily have to do with the quality of the music. :)



-- 
Joeri Vankeirsbilck
joeri@...

Belway Productions      -     http://www.belway.com
List-admin   Logic-users/SoundD*ver-users/Logic-TDM

Re: [L-OT] Re: PC What to do now

2002-07-03 by TazmnianDv@aol.com

>Intel/AMD are faster on FPU and at least comparable on Integer. The

Who is fastest is constantly changing, but its often Apple.

>Photoshop test is not relevant -- you are looking at specific routines
>coded for Altivec. 

Intel has their own vector processor in the Pentiums - what's it called MMX? 
Yet another example of where Motorola makes better designs. And this was even 
the opinon of a computer engineer friend who uses only PC's.


>Inform yourself -- read this link below and stop believing Apple bullshit.

You can inform yourself, that static theoretical tests are not real world 
tests. The speed with which a computer actually works depends on many factors 
- thats why they do real world tests - same programs doing the same tasks on 
the different platforms. In theory, the Brazilian team was not supposed to 
win the world cup - but they did.

Re: [L-OT] Re: PC What to do now

2002-07-03 by Murray McDowall

At 03:37 AM 3/07/02 -0400, you wrote:
>>Intel/AMD are faster on FPU and at least comparable on Integer. The
>
>Who is fastest is constantly changing, but its often Apple.
>
>>Photoshop test is not relevant -- you are looking at specific routines
>>coded for Altivec. 

MMX is old news -- we are talking 5 years out of date -- eg Pentium 166 MMX
circa 1996.

Since then Intel has SSE and SSE2 in the Pentium 4. The SSE2 units are
analogous to Altivec and when things are coded to exploit them they are
accelerated to a great degree -- MPEG encoding, audio etc. Hammer will have
SSE2 also.

Mac users are often carrying around a lot of out of date info about PCs --
the hardware advances rapidly with PCs and the OS is now robust Win2K just
doesn't crash for me. I am running it on a Tosh Laptop and it has NEVER
crashed. Imagine that. What was true about PPC vs x86 years ago is
irrelevant now. You may be informed about these things -- I don't know.

Take all the talk about RISC --reduced instruction set computing. People
still crap on about it. In the next breath they go on to enthuse about
Altivec. Know what that is? -- a shitload of new instructions that run on
execution units that have NOTHING to do with RISC. The instruction set for
the G4 is now enormous -- same for P4. 

>You can inform yourself, that static theoretical tests are not real world 
>tests. The speed with which a computer actually works depends on many factors 
>- thats why they do real world tests - same programs doing the same tasks on 
>the different platforms. In theory, the Brazilian team was not supposed to 
>win the world cup - but they did.

Didn't surprise me at all.

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