Hector Hector and Hector
2002-07-07 by john lin
Is it just possible that you are by degrees a victim of the emperers new cloths? That if one took e's in a math class they might also experience a trance? Your right, there is "some" good trance, like there is "some" good in almost any music or musical concept! But basically i find most trance and techno heads to be pretty small minded. They inflict their imagined little dance club rules onto themselves and onto each other. It's a peer pressure thing. The reality is, a bunch of computer geeks got a hold of sequencers and the lack of depth to their musical abilities and depth of their computer abilities left them with default minimalism. In general i find almost all of the little sub genres of techno laughable. Change the feel of the high hat and rename the genre sort of stuff. It's all about over defining, so that the defining justifies the lack of inspiration. And voilla we have over defined disposable music that's often concept justified only, rather than substance justified. In fact disposable music was considered good in the 90's, along with the bulk of the kiddies at the clubs who liked to wear big corporation logos to display their individuality.... By the way, Kids dance. Kid's have always danced. Kids like to think their into something new. Kids have always liked to think they were into something new. Because lots of kids dance to trance does not mean that the bulk of it is good. Although i know that most conservative people these days think that "success equals good", remember that there have also been alot of successful fascists who were supported by the bulk of their populations. I find your comment that you wouldn't play this or that out at a club very typical. Why not? You might break a "club rule"???? Don't you have different spontanious moods thru out a night? Can't you be true to yourself rather than true to a invented genre?? I was in europe in the early 90's, having electronic dance guys come and borrow my adats so that they could make people think that the led's on them were actually doing something while they played a dat in the backround....lol ..fraud...... I absolutely beleive that there is good music to be found in trance, and i absolutely beleive that by and large most of it is shite! I watched a couple of friends pump out dance singles in a weekend just to get the 1000 pound checks. And they were considered very credible, lol...., if you only new how little they cared! A good song or good music has nothing to do with whether it has this or that in it! Vocals no vocals, analogue or digital. Remember when all the techno producers blathered on and on about analogue??? Good music is about lawless juxtaposition and essence. Most of the techno kiddies i knew in the 90's were full of laws. I rarely met a rebel...ie,"this is not this... if it does'nt have or has this", and most of the techno/ electronic musicians followed all the little genre rules just like good little lemmings, just like you being unwilling to play things out in a club that you personally enjoy...... I find most dance music to be very very very conservative! Music for a very conservative time. A time when more young people are conservative world wide and teckno and trance has been the sound track to that conservatism. I like rebellious music, music without laws. Music that uses, or doesn't use, any tool at any time without being restrained by some pointless attempt to fit into neat little (and i mean very little) sub genre boxes. Myself i'll mix an 808 with a guitar and not think about it, i'll do severe tempo changes when i feel like it, i'll mix electronic drum loops with old fashioned vocals, i'll even wow wow, do tracks with no vocals and just intense acid made accents against a steady dirge grove, the issue is not what i use of don't use, it's whether i've used whatever i've had at my disposal in a juxtaposition that takes the musical experience up or down to the highest or lowest climax attainable for that juxtaposition, instead of limiting myself to make music that you hector or the "godhead unity consciousness corporate logo wearing clubber" defines as "fitting" for your little genre boxes. I say To hell with all the little conservative sub genre stuff. How bout really being free and just playing and writing anything you feel like at any time, instead of playing with self imposed rules to make the conservative kids happy??? What do ya say Hector? john ----------
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>From: logic-ot@yahoogroups.com >To: logic-ot@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [L-OT] Digest Number 621 >Date: Sun, Jul 7, 2002, 5:58 PM > > > There are 25 messages in this issue. > > Topics in this digest: > > 1. Re: David Bowie and David Torn > From: Hendrik Jan Veenstra <h@...> > 2. Re: David Bowie and David Torn > From: TazmnianDv@... > 3. Bowie -> sugar cubes > From: TazmnianDv@... > 4. Re: David Bowie and David Torn > From: "Hector" <hector@...> > 5. re: Tosh Laptop breaks sound barrier (NOT) > From: Murray McDowall <murraymc@melbpc.org.au> > 6. Re: David Bowie and David Torn > From: "Hector" <hector@...> > 7. Re: Bowie -> sugar cubes > From: "Hector" <hector@...> > 8. Re: David Bowie and David Torn > From: Hendrik Jan Veenstra <h@...> > 9. Re: David Bowie and David Torn > From: Hendrik Jan Veenstra <h@knoware.nl> > 10. Re: David Bowie and David Torn > From: "darin collins" <darindervish@...> > 11. Re: David Bowie and David Torn > From: "Hector" <hector@...> > 12. Re: Bowie -> sugar cubes > From: TazmnianDv@... > 13. Re: David Bowie and David Torn > From: TazmnianDv@... > 14. Re: David Bowie and David Torn > From: TazmnianDv@... > 15. Re: David Bowie and David Torn > From: texture444@... > 16. Re: David Bowie and David Torn > From: texture444@...m > 17. Re: David Bowie and David Torn > From: texture444@aol.com > 18. Re: Bowie -> sugar cubes > From: "Hector" <hector@...> > 19. Re: David Bowie and David Torn > From: "Hector" <hector@...> > 20. Re: Bowie -> sugar cubes > From: TazmnianDv@... > 21. Re: Bowie -> sugar cubes > From: "Hector" <hector@...> > 22. Great trance recordings. > From: "Hector" <hector@...> > 23. Re: Commodore, Atari, Mac, PC ... > From: Colin Miller <snoopy@mindspring.com> > 24. Re: PCI Slots > From: Colin Miller <snoopy@...> > 25. Re: Great trance recordings. > From: TazmnianDv@... > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 11:51:05 +0200 > From: Hendrik Jan Veenstra <h@...> > Subject: Re: David Bowie and David Torn > > Thoughts from the mind of Hector, 06-07-2002: > >> > I think of DJ's as arrangers - and they are brilliant at it. The problem >>is >>> that most of techno/hard trance/ blah blah blah... is that its ALL >>> ARRANGEMENT and NO SONG. And whats with all these genre names? house, trip >>> hop, blah blah -.... its all just instrumental dance music with minor >>> variation in bpm. >> >>You are clearly missing the point of trance music. > > I'd already expected Tazmanian's post to cause some response :-))) > >>It has a very specific >>audience - crowds people who dance in front of massive sound systems >>under the influence of MDMA or occassionaly LSD. Producers and dj's will >>not admit that on the record, as they influence young people and would not >>want to be accused of condoning drug taking. But it *is* what trance is all >>about and millions of people dance to it every weekend, worldwide, as a >>choice of lifestyle. > > Glad someone is wise enough to admit this. > >> >OK, I'm showing my age. But >>> clearly there have never been any "hit singles" from any of these artists, >>> becasue they don't produce songs. >> >>I don't know about age, but you are definitely showing your ignorance. What >>you say is simply not true, there have been plenty of trance hit singles >>including several no.1's in the UK at least. > > I think what he maybe meant is that there have never been and > probably never will be hit singles that will over time become more > than one-day flies -- like Bowie's Space Oddity (to pull the msg back > on the original topic :), or Zeppelin's Stairway To Heaven, or a > zillion other hits that have lost very little of their original > impact or quality or "brilliance". > >>I hope this has increased your understanding of why trance _is_ the way it >>is. > > Good posting imo. Thanks. > > -- > Hendrik Jan Veenstra <h@...> > Omega Art: http://www.ision.nl/users/h/index.html > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 08:02:19 EDT > From: TazmnianDv@... > Subject: Re: David Bowie and David Torn > > > In a message dated 7/5/02 5:41:55 PM, hector@... writes: > >>I hope this has increased your understanding of why trance _is_ the way >>it is. > > Thanks for your comments. Here in LA, I never hear any dance music played on > mainstream radio. I can hear some dance music on KCRW - but it plays music > from all over the world and its hard to figure out what it was you heard. So > most of my dance CD's were bought by going to Tower Records and listening to > the sample CD's - often after having read about the artist in some magazine. > I've never heard of any of the top dance singles you mention -so indeed I am > ignorant. > > I understand the drug thing - but even the best dance music I've ever heard - > does not have much true musical content. I wonder how they copyright these - > other than copyrighing the performance. Do they actually print out 12 pages > of eight notes. > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 08:13:43 EDT > From: TazmnianDv@aol.com > Subject: Bowie -> sugar cubes > >>Fine statement. I´m a bit sorry for the DJ generation. > > Lets say a couple gets married now, and they play some Sasha remixs. Later > when they're having their 25th anniversary are they going to have the band > play "their song" ...? I'm really trying to understand this. > > My theory is this. If you listen to a great song, often there is a great > beat. But in this ever more superficial world, now they dispense with the > melody, the lyrics, etc and just stick with a beat and simple riff. If you > think about it, this is part of a long trend. A symphony - lets say Brahms - > each part is about 10 minutes long - and all built upon one theme and a > counter theme and variations. It takes patience to listen and understand the > musical idea. Then big band jazz made this quicker and more accessible. Then > rock and roll was a further simplification. But the beatles used to use > augmented and diminished chords occassionally. Then heavy metal got simpler- > "power chords = 1 +5". And there was stagnation for a while. Grunge came > along and at least has some fresh dark harmony, but it was too dark overall. > > So the stage is set for mindless techno/dance music. Its upbeat. Its social > and fun. The musical ideas are usually a bar or two. In fact, there are often > quarter note repeating elements - which have a hypnotic affect. But it seems > to be the junk food of music - candy bars - plenty of sugar and artificial > flavors - but no vitamins. > > But thats fine. I like listening to it - to a certain extent. Actually its a > different experience. A lot of my favorite music (and I have been busy > putting it all onto my IPOD!) has some sort of emotional ebb and flow - > while the dance music's main claim is very little of that. > > howvever how much more can this process go? It can't get much simpler...other > than just sugar cubes. > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 4 > Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 14:41:33 +0100 > From: "Hector" <hector@...> > Subject: Re: David Bowie and David Torn > >> I think what he maybe meant is that there have never been and >> probably never will be hit singles that will over time become more >> than one-day flies -- like Bowie's Space Oddity (to pull the msg back >> on the original topic :), or Zeppelin's Stairway To Heaven, or a >> zillion other hits that have lost very little of their original >> impact or quality or "brilliance". > > The difference with trance is that it is the lesser known records that tend > to have the greater longevity. For whatever reason the public like, buy > and make hits of very plastic, sacharine throw-away trance records with > dreadful vocals. This give a bad representation of what is really being > played on the underground scene. Just as there was prog-rock, there is > prog-trance and just as much innovation and care goes into the construction > and developement of recordings, but in very different ways. > > I often think that trance records are too *good* to be hits. They may for > example be devoid of shit vocals, which destroys their chart chances > straight away. The record company's A+R departments are always on the > lookout for quality instrumental trance records to destroy with bad vocals > and then launch at the charts. Many make it unfortunately, adding to the > greater publics misconception about the quality of trance music in general. > > I have loads of records that I could pull out and play and nobody would know > they were 6 or 7 years old (an eternity in the dance world). I have many > Trance records that I consider to have a 'timeless' quality and will > definitely still want to listen to them many years from now. You had to be > on the underground scene at the time to know they existed as they were > definitely too good to chart. > > A scene has to finish before people look back at it lovingly and pull out > records from the time. The Trance scene will never finish as it will keep > morphing into ever more subgenres of music, splitting, reconverging, maybe > even going full circle. There are no definite timelines where one stops and > another starts. Since 1988 it has been doing so and there are countless > sub-genres (or micro-scenes?) right now. Almost as soon as one is > documented it has evolved into something else or split up and dissappeared. > That is the beauty of it all. It happens so fast, you never know what is > going to emerge next. Only the broader genre definitions (such as House, > Trance, Garage, Breakbeat,) stay fairly contant taking many years to evolve. > > Also there are many elements that believe the dance scene should always be > forward looking and innovating. A popular mantra to come from the Mayday > party organisation in Germany is 'Forward Ever, Backward Never'. So > playing lots of music from the past would probably be considered uncool > anyway. I am certain that if a dj was to just play records that were > over a year old, their career would not last very long. I would often feel > uneasy if I had to play out a few records that were just 5 or 6 months old. > > So you see comparing the longevity of hit trance records to Bowie and Led > Zep hits is deeply flawed. If there were a party at the end of time and I > had to choose some trance music from years gone by, for one final night of > pleasure, I am sure that virtually none of those tracks on my playlist would > ever have been chart 'hits'. > > regards Hector. > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 5 > Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 00:19:54 +1000 > From: Murray McDowall <murraymc@...> > Subject: re: Tosh Laptop breaks sound barrier (NOT) > > Hi, > > I posted a week or so ago about my Laptop running my audio apps very slowly > - taking 20 min to load Logic. > > The problem is solved -- I discovered using Task Manager that a Toshiba > utility (thokey.exe) was using 99 - 100% of CPU. This caused everything to > run like molasses when I launched my ASIO apps. Simply removing this file > from Windows/system32 fixed the problem. This indispensible utility is for > launching apps using keyboard shortcuts (eg Fn key +E for Eudora). Can't > tell you how glad Tosh made that facility available to me. Luckily I didn't > have much hair left to tear out. > > Anyway the system is now working well as far as Logic on ASIO with > Hammerfall DSP Cardbus/multiface combo. > > Regards, > M > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 6 > Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 14:58:25 +0100 > From: "Hector" <hector@...> > Subject: Re: David Bowie and David Torn > >> I understand the drug thing - but even the best dance music I've ever > heard - >> does not have much true musical content. > > _Your_ definition of 'musical content' that is. > >>I wonder how they copyright these - >> other than copyrighing the performance. Do they actually print out 12 > pages >> of eight notes. > > Chances are, with you being in the states, you have been listening to some > of the worst music Europe can offer. See my longer posting I sent just > before this one, to get the full details why. > > Even so, I suspect you are still missing the point, because if clubbers > wanted to hear tracks with your definition of true musical content, they > would probably ask the dj to play Steely Dan or Bowie, wouldn't they? > > Regards Hector. > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 7 > Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 15:51:45 +0100 > From: "Hector" <hector@nildram.co.uk> > Subject: Re: Bowie -> sugar cubes > >> >Fine statement. I´m a bit sorry for the DJ generation. > > I am truly sorry for you. I feel incredibly lucky and priveledged to have > spent my youth during the first 10 years of clubland, as we know it. > >> Lets say a couple gets married now, and they play some Sasha remixs. Later >> when they're having their 25th anniversary are they going to have the band >> play "their song" ...? I'm really trying to understand this. > > If there's a dj at the marriage, there will be a dj at the anniversary, not > a band, and amongst a lot of new records being played, some old ones too > including the Sasha records. > >> My theory is this. If you listen to a great song, often there is a great >> beat. But in this ever more superficial world, now they dispense with the >> melody, the lyrics, etc and just stick with a beat and simple riff. If > you >> think about it, this is part of a long trend. A symphony - lets say > Brahms - >> each part is about 10 minutes long - and all built upon one theme and a >> counter theme and variations. It takes patience to listen and understand > the >> musical idea. Then big band jazz made this quicker and more accessible. > Then >> rock and roll was a further simplification. But the beatles used to use >> augmented and diminished chords occassionally. Then heavy metal got > simpler- >> "power chords = 1 +5". And there was stagnation for a while. Grunge came >> along and at least has some fresh dark harmony, but it was too dark > overall. >> > > Interesting but does not apply to Trance. You are trying to listen to > trance as a normal song. Big mistake. Trance is a music that works in a > hypnotic way, requiring no melody or vocals. It directly affects your > emotions with out you having to think about it. It is more akin to the > ancient tribal drum rhythms and shamanic ritual dancing of native cultures, > than modern, western culture 'songs'. You have the deepest misunderstanding > of what it is about. > > >> So the stage is set for mindless techno/dance music. Its upbeat. Its > social >> and fun. The musical ideas are usually a bar or two. In fact, there are > often >> quarter note repeating elements - which have a hypnotic affect. But it > seems >> to be the junk food of music - candy bars - plenty of sugar and artificial >> flavors - but no vitamins. > > It is only mindless to those who have never been able/willing to put > themselves in the situation required to understand it. I suspect you never > will. Your loss mate. > >> But thats fine. I like listening to it - to a certain extent. Actually its > a >> different experience. A lot of my favorite music (and I have been busy >> putting it all onto my IPOD!) has some sort of emotional ebb and flow - >> while the dance music's main claim is very little of that. > > Good trance music has enormous emotive power, if you know how to unlock it. > There will be two camps of people reading this. Those, that like you do not > understand trance, will be agreeing wholeheartedly with what you have said. > And the other camp, which has been able to grasp the concept, will probably > be thinking: 'If only he knew'. > > Regards Hector. > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 8 > Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 18:21:17 +0200 > From: Hendrik Jan Veenstra <h@...> > Subject: Re: David Bowie and David Torn > > Thoughts from the mind of TazmnianDv@..., 06-07-2002: > >>even the best dance music I've ever heard - does not have much true >>musical content. I wonder how they copyright these - other than >>copyrighing the performance. Do they actually print out 12 pages of >>eight notes. > > ROTFL!!!!! No, they print out the 8 notes once, and try to copyright > the Xerox machine %-)) > > -- > Hendrik Jan Veenstra <h@...> > Omega Art: http://www.ision.nl/users/h/index.html > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 9 > Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 18:26:07 +0200 > From: Hendrik Jan Veenstra <h@...> > Subject: Re: David Bowie and David Torn > > Thoughts from the mind of Hector, 06-07-2002: > > [ interesting stuff deleted -- thanks again Hector ] > >>So you see comparing the longevity of hit trance records to Bowie and Led >>Zep hits is deeply flawed. If there were a party at the end of time and I >>had to choose some trance music from years gone by, for one final night of >>pleasure, I am sure that virtually none of those tracks on my playlist would >>ever have been chart 'hits'. > > Then the question remains: if today's "trance generation" (if such a > thing exists) is 20 years older, which songs that still receive > airplay will then be "nostalgia" to them? > > -- > Hendrik Jan Veenstra <h@...> > Omega Art: http://www.ision.nl/users/h/index.html > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 10 > Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 10:34:01 -0700 > From: "darin collins" <darindervish@...> > Subject: Re: David Bowie and David Torn > > > i sure like the music a whole lot better than the seen(mindless except for > the music). i can see and feel so much in the music since the early 80's... > that the seen in > california with all the gangsta bull**** or just plain attitude or the > mindless kids with vicks and masks running around for nowhere..... > hell, you can hardly go to reggae on the river or hog farm anymore with > without the feeling there has been a link removed. been playing guitar > for 20 years and will never feel threatened by that beautiful minimal > beat. it's just a different thing. vocals ruin so much. i understand > both sides, hear it somewhat often. the people behind the music is who > i really admire no matter what kind.....it just should make you even happier > because without a-reference-anywhere on your scale you would > not even know how you would feel in the first place. the vehicle is > beautiful no matter where you go.. we all don't need to drive together. > darindervish > > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 11 > Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 19:06:04 +0100 > From: "Hector" <hector@...> > Subject: Re: David Bowie and David Torn > >> >So you see comparing the longevity of hit trance records to Bowie and Led >> >Zep hits is deeply flawed. If there were a party at the end of time > and I >> >had to choose some trance music from years gone by, for one final night > of >> >pleasure, I am sure that virtually none of those tracks on my playlist > would >> >ever have been chart 'hits'. >> >> Then the question remains: if today's "trance generation" (if such a >> thing exists) is 20 years older, which songs that still receive >> airplay will then be "nostalgia" to them? >> > > I am very fussy and the only 'hit' trance records (got loads of airplay) to > bring a lump to my throat in 20 years would be 'Seven Days And One Week' by > BBE and also Robert Miles - Children ( another no.1 I forgot to mention > earlier). All the rest of my favorites never got the airplay when they > were released. I think for the majority of todays younger, less fussy > clubbers, almost all the trance records getting airplay now will give them a > sense of nostalgia. They will probable remember particular classic moments > at parties with friends when the tune was played. > > It is extremely unlikely, no impossible actually, that a trance tune will > get airplay for 20 years. About 1 year is the max. After that it will > only be on back to 199x programs or a dj dropping a old classic just bring > back a few memories. > > Sometimes it really seems like chance or luck that a record gets picked up > by a major and gets a chart hit. I remember having the both the two > records above for between 6-12 months on whitelabel before they hit the > charts. Makes me think they might never have got picked up. > > Regards Hector. > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 12 > Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 14:30:29 EDT > From: TazmnianDv@... > Subject: Re: Bowie -> sugar cubes > >>Those, that like you do not >>understand trance, will be agreeing wholeheartedly with what you have said. >>And the other camp, which has been able to grasp the concept, will probably >>be thinking: 'If only he knew'. > > Can you explain the deper understand for us heathen then? It sounds good - I > hear beats, and synth parts coming in, and dropping out. There is stuff > going on. Its hypnotic. But what is so special about all that? A good "song" > has those same qualities - with less hypnosis. My view is that its nice, but > not that rapture you're making it out to be. Its like a Led Zeppelin fan > saying ... its so wonderous how Jimmy Page plays a Les Paul on some songs, > and a Telecaster on others - you can tell the difference in the sound, but > overall the average listener doesn't know or care. Certainly the differences > don't merit a new name of music - "Humbucking Zep" versus "Single Coil Zep". > > Obviously you (Hector) are an expert in this music. I'm just wondering if the > distinctions are similarly subtle. > > The only dance song that can think of that has a real emotion moment is BT's > Hip Hop Phenomenon....where it builds and then has a break. > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 13 > Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 14:36:10 EDT > From: TazmnianDv@... > Subject: Re: David Bowie and David Torn > > > In a message dated 7/6/02 7:59:29 AM, hector@... writes: > >>Even so, I suspect you are still missing the point, because if clubbers >>wanted to hear tracks with your definition of true musical content, they >>would probably ask the dj to play Steely Dan or Bowie, wouldn't they? > > I think this is the point that someone made - there is a draught of creative > song writing. I would agree that the whole genre of songwriting is getting > stale and needs to evolve. But trance/dance is not an evolution of song - its > more an evolution of instrumental soundtracks. > > And before you dismiss emotional content and sophisticated musical ideas as > being out of date - keep in mind that these concepts have been with us as > long as we have been human. This goes back to my sugar cube comment. It seems > that people don't want to deal with real life, real emotions, real issues, > and so they just get high and dance. Do you think so? This is not a new > escape by the way (ask any Grateful Dead fan over the past 30 years). > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 14 > Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 14:40:11 EDT > From: TazmnianDv@...m > Subject: Re: David Bowie and David Torn > > OK, can you give us about five references of really great stuff - and we can > try to buy it ... or do you have MP3's you can share on the L-OT page - just > for evaluation? Maybe you're right - and there is a lot of great stuff we > simply don't know about - so we are talking about different things. > >>20 years would be 'Seven Days And One Week' by >>BBE and also Robert Miles - Children ( another no.1 I forgot to mention >>earlier). > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 15 > Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 16:41:55 EDT > From: texture444@... > Subject: Re: David Bowie and David Torn > > hector@... writes: > >>Chances are, with you being in the states, you have been listening to >>some >>of the worst music Europe can offer. > now, that's just plain wrong. > one can find any recording, here: anything at all. > the shame is that people in the states just like to be *told* > what-to-listen-to..... > best, > the guy whose name has nothing whatsover to do w/this thread, > dt / splattercell > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 16 > Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 17:03:39 EDT > From: texture444@aol.com > Subject: Re: David Bowie and David Torn > > h@... writes: > >>Then the question remains: if today's "trance generation" (if such a >>thing exists) is 20 years older, which songs that still receive >>airplay will then be "nostalgia" to them? > i don't think there is a 'trance generation': lumpifying listeners by > age-category seems a mildly deluded activity, at best. > *-)) > my kids enjoy listening to squarepusher, oval, aphex, takemura etc, as do i > w/them: > indeed, i turned them on to that kinda (not-trance) stuff. > they --- and their friends, and their crowd --- do not seem to specifically > identify w/any musical 'style', which i perceive as truly open-minded: would > that more people of *my* generation were like that! > i think that there *was* no 'beatles' generation, nor was there a 'steely > dan' generation: > that type of thinking seems to conform w/a standard of 'media convention', > arrived at and agreed upon via consensus for conversational convenience. > (when you were listening to the beatles, i was listening to ornette coleman, > miles davis, al green and hari prasad chaurasia etc--- when you were > listening to steely dan, i was listening to the early ecm recordings, magma, > carla bley, lookout farm, the headhunters, mahavishnu, etc. > howver..... lucky for me, i played catch-up, later on.....) > and: > fwiw: > there is truly fresh and recent music in the world, today; it's simply become > necessary to look for it..... in trance, in hiphop, in songwriting, in new > music, in jazz..... > best, > dt / splattercell > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 17 > Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 17:13:35 EDT > From: texture444@... > Subject: Re: David Bowie and David Torn > > TazmnianDv@aol.com, 06-07-2002: > >>>even the best dance music I've ever heard - does not have much true >>>musical content. I wonder how they copyright these - other than >>>copyrighing the performance. Do they actually print out 12 pages of >>>eight notes. > that's incredibly eurocentric of you. > music's value is not weighed by the density-of-notes (neither vertically nor > horizontally) on a piece of papier, as its not weighed by commercial success: > imo, its weighed by it's ability to transform both musicians' & listeners' > lives. > sorry, but: > john lee hooker. nusrat fateh ali khan. idja hadijjah. om khalsoum. neil > young. my gitane family. master musicians of jajouka. kevin shields. brian > eno. main. cluster. etc, etc, etc, etc, ad hoc infinitum..... > best, > dt / splattercell > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 18 > Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 23:46:20 +0100 > From: "Hector" <hector@...> > Subject: Re: Bowie -> sugar cubes > >> >Those, that like you do not >> >understand trance, will be agreeing wholeheartedly with what you have > said. >> >And the other camp, which has been able to grasp the concept, will > probably >> >be thinking: 'If only he knew'. >> >> Can you explain the deper understand for us heathen then? It sounds good - > I >> hear beats, and synth parts coming in, and dropping out. There is stuff >> going on. Its hypnotic. But what is so special about all that? > > Looking at my post again, that "grasp the concept" bit seems a bit > rude/patronising and was not what I really meant to say. I'm sorry if you > found that at all offensive. It should have been "And the other (probably > very small) camp, which has been fortunate enough to hear the music in the > right circumstances (large soundsystem, crowd, dancing, MDMA in the > bloodstream etc...) will probably be thinking 'If only he knew'" > Almost anyone in those circumstances should be able to understand the true > _purpose_ of Trance music. It is a tool to reach a euphoric/spiritual > state of mind on the dance floor, nothing else. > > The commercial trance you have probably been listening to is often just a > tool that record companies/artists use to cash in on the scene. > > Listening to good trance at home on a pc is not a misuse, but maybe an > impotent use of it. The other required factors (listed above) are not > there, so the desired effect is not reached. The exception being for those > people who have danced to the music at a club and then get the feeling > return to them on listening again at home. There is a movie called Human > Traffic which conveys the whole experience and lifestyle very well, I > highly recommend watching it. The trance music in it is well chosen. > >>A good "song" >> has those same qualities - with less hypnosis. My view is that its nice, > but >> not that rapture you're making it out to be. > > Trust me, a good song as you put it, has none of required qualities that > trance has. They are like chalk and cheese. I play conventional 'good > songs' at home, saving the trance for parties and clubs. Most days I will > listen to classical, dinner jazz, Brazilian vintage samba/MPB, chillout and > even a little 'pop'. Very little rock oriented music thought, not since my > teenage years and I'm 28 now. Starting clubbing in 1991 finished all that. > >>Its like a Led Zeppelin fan >> saying ... its so wonderous how Jimmy Page plays a Les Paul on some songs, >> and a Telecaster on others - you can tell the difference in the sound, but >> overall the average listener doesn't know or care. Certainly the > differences >> don't merit a new name of music - "Humbucking Zep" versus "Single Coil > Zep". >> Obviously you (Hector) are an expert in this music. I'm just wondering if > the >> distinctions are similarly subtle. > > There are all the same subtleties and nuances in good trance that can > inspire in a very similar way. I can thing of no other music that makes > such use clever use of carefully crafted timbres. A great example would be > the sound emitted by the Roland TB-303 bassline. I have used many clones > both in hard and software forms and none have the class of the real thing. > But, as in the example you give, it is not that important to the listener. > The quality of the overall composition being the real issue. > >> The only dance song that can think of that has a real emotion moment is > BT's >> Hip Hop Phenomenon....where it builds and then has a break. > > A strange choice for me. Whilst I greatly admire BT's skill in the > construction of that tune and similar ones on the Movement In Still Life > album I do not believe it would cut the mustard on a trance dancefloor. I > do not find it emotionally rousing, rather just impressive. It is a > 'Breaks' tune anyway, not trance. Some of the more '4 to the floor' tracks > on the album would fare better and are more emotive to me. If you have not > done so already you should really give his 'ESCM' album a listen as I feel > that is much more of a landmark piece of work. It has pictures of > monoliths on the cover and I think he is fully justified in putting them > there. There is also a real stunner called 'Divinity' on his first album > 'Ima'. Shows his musical tallent and genius to the full. These songs are > still a little soft sounding for todays trance lovers. I wish so much he > would produce some harder stuff. > > Trance needs to be full of sonic energy and rising spiralling synth riffs > that lifts a crowd and sends them hurtling throught fractal galaxies in > their minds. It's not called 'trance' for nothing. Without wanting to sound > like a hippie, it is truly mind expanding and the greatest form of > hedonism/escapism that has ever existed. It can all be achieved over a > weekend with little effort involved. Such is the intensity of it, new > inexperienced clubbers will often often get themselves into trouble by doing > it every weekend. After a few months their bodies and minds begin to let > them know that they should slow down. Wiser and more experienced clubbers > will go partying maybe just once a month. The golden rule has always been > 'Less is more'. I have been doing it for ten years and have never felt > better. > > Sometimes my enthusiasm gets misinterpereted as a 'holyer than thou' > attitude. I hope you have not thought that. I have tried to convey what I > know but it is not an easy subject to explain. I certainly know that if > someone had tried to explain it all to me before I started, I doubt they > would have given me an accurate picture. > > regards Hector. > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 19 > Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 00:02:01 +0100 > From: "Hector" <hector@...> > Subject: Re: David Bowie and David Torn > > >> >Chances are, with you being in the states, you have been listening to >> >some >> >of the worst music Europe can offer. > >> now, that's just plain wrong. >> one can find any recording, here: anything at all. >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > I worded it badly. I was refering specificly to trance music and my > definition of the worst, which was detailed in my prior posting. I know > that there is great choice in the states of the more commercial recordings. > Choice in the more underground stuff is probably limited and would involve a > trek round several small independant record shops in major cities. That was > my experience anyway when I last went record shopping in NY. > > Regards Hector. > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 20 > Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 19:51:48 EDT > From: TazmnianDv@... > Subject: Re: Bowie -> sugar cubes > > Hector > I appreciate your explanations and I do like the music (which I can't always > say about rap or country). > >>Listening to good trance at home on a pc is not a misuse, but maybe an >>impotent use of it. The other required factors (listed above) are not >>there, so the desired effect is not reached. > ... >>Trance needs to be full of sonic energy and rising spiralling synth riffs >>that lifts a crowd and sends them hurtling throught fractal galaxies in >>their minds. It's not called 'trance' for nothing. Without wanting to >>sound like a hippie, > > Few can remember the heady days of the real hippies in th San Francisco scene > in 1969 ... Jefferson Airplane, Janis Joplin, Iron Butterfly, Moby Grape, the > Grateful Dead, Country Joe & Fish, ... playing loud music with colored > water/oil projected onto a screen ...people were on LSD probably - of course > there is no way to capture that feeling on a computer or record, ... Nor is > there a way to capture the feel of Woodstock. etc Or there was th spiralling > guitar duel in Freebird, the hypnotic beat of Led Zps opener - Immigrant Song > (I heard it at th LA forum with 18,000 and it was mesmerizing). I was also > moved by Wagner's Tristan Und Isolde - it can really sweep you up. > > >> > BT'sHip Hop Phenomenon....where it builds and then has a break. >> A strange choice for me. > > Its not my favorite BT by far, but the things of his i like are songs. I was > using that as an example of a non-song piece that had ... as Rachmaninoff > said "its moment". > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 21 > Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 02:02:59 +0100 > From: "Hector" <hector@nildram.co.uk> > Subject: Re: Bowie -> sugar cubes > >> Hector >> I appreciate your explanations and I do like the music (which I can't > always >> say about rap or country). > > > >> Few can remember the heady days of the real hippies in th San Francisco > scene >> in 1969 ... Jefferson Airplane, Janis Joplin, Iron Butterfly, Moby Grape, > the >> Grateful Dead, Country Joe & Fish, ... playing loud music with colored >> water/oil projected onto a screen ...people were on LSD probably - of > course >> there is no way to capture that feeling on a computer or record, ... Nor > is >> there a way to capture the feel of Woodstock. etc Or there was th > spiralling >> guitar duel in Freebird, the hypnotic beat of Led Zps opener - Immigrant > Song >> (I heard it at th LA forum with 18,000 and it was mesmerizing). I was also >> moved by Wagner's Tristan Und Isolde - it can really sweep you up. > > That sort of festival is still going on with the UK's Glastonbury festival. > It caters for most musical tastes and you'll find plenty of hippies, some > naked. Roger Waters from the Floyd played at this years and that was only > last weekend. As for capturing the LSD experience on a recording you need > to listen to two albums: > > Ozric Tentacles - Erpland > The Infinity Project - Mystical Experiences > > I can tell you they are _very_ close to the real thing. The Ozrics album > is the most sublime, beautiful and psychedelic music I have ever heard. > For both of these albums you really want to listen to them on a strong dose > of acid, outdoors in a beautiful place, on a fine day. > > If you have trouble getting hold of them or any others that I recommend let > me know and I will help you out. I think you can order the Ozrics album at > www.ozrics.com > > regards Hector. > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 22 > Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 02:58:52 +0100 > From: "Hector" <hector@...> > Subject: Great trance recordings. > >> OK, can you give us about five references of really great stuff - and we > can >> try to buy it ... or do you have MP3's you can share on the L-OT page - > just >> for evaluation? Maybe you're right - and there is a lot of great stuff we >> simply don't know about - so we are talking about different things. > > > Sure I can, but remember, the way you hear it will probably be very > different to the way clubbers at a party hear it. > > For starters try a US band called Deepsky. They have a new album out called > In-Silico. A bit hit and miss but the good parts are awesome. They have > obviously been heavily influenced by BT. > > Now the following will probably be very hard to get hold of as most of came > out on vinyl. If you have trouble getting them, give me an address and and > I will send a cd for for you to 'evaluate' them before you spend a lot of > effort tracking some of them down. ;-) > > Artist - song - record label > > category: Euphoric energy trance > > X-cabs - Neuro - Additive > DJ Mind-X - Nightingale (Suspicious Remix) - Overdose > Binary Finary - 1999 (Gouryella remix) - Positiva > William Orbit - Barber's Adagio For Strings (Ferry Corsten Remix) - > Warner Music UK > System F - Out Of The Blue (Original or Ferry Corsten remix) - Tsunami > Gat Decor - In The Head (Instrumental) - Way Of Life > Taskforce - Touch me (Thrillseekers Remix) - Y2K > Veracocha - Carte Blanche - Deal > Lost Tribe - My Soul - Hooj > Marmion - Schoneberg - Hooj > Westbam Vs. Red Jerry - Wizards Of The Sonic (Matt Darey Remix) - > Wonderboy > Transa - Enervate - Hook or Perfecto > The Thrillseekers - Synaesthesia (Paul Van Dyke Remix) - Vandit > > Category: Psychedelic trance > > Johann - Stranded (The Delta Remix) - Blue Room excellent electric > guitars in this one. Earthquaking german production. > Not typical of the Psy trance however. > > Category: Acid trance (Acid in this case is the name of the sound from the > TB-303.) > > Dr Octopus - Dr. Octopus - Millennium total sonic power - will take > your head off. The Roland TB-303 at it's most devasting. > > Category: _Hard_ Energy trance (not for the faint hearted) > > Fierce Base - I Thank You Elvis and Power Trip - Tinrib > Cris C and M-Zone - Mackerel (Lord Of Remix) - Tinrib > Hampshire And Weatherley - Breathless '99 part 2 (Tony De Vit Remix) - > Interflow Sounds > Section X - Galaxian - Phoenix Rising This is like thunder. > Incredible pace, very repetitive riff but awesome uplifting power, French > bizaarly. One to finish off a crowd at the end of a night. > > > It was hard choosing these titles, there are thousands of others of equal > quality. Most of them are not new, I tried to choose stuff that has had a > big impact on underground dancefloors. > > regards Hector. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 23 > Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 12:43:42 -0700 > From: Colin Miller <snoopy@...> > Subject: Re: Commodore, Atari, Mac, PC ... > > >> I have been in contact with specialists and so far I've had to conclude >> that your above statement is incorrect. >> I prefer hard facts over general statements based on assumptions. > > Some of the best pieces of gear have the worst specs. ;-) > > Colin Miller > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 24 > Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 12:51:32 -0700 > From: Colin Miller <snoopy@...> > Subject: Re: PCI Slots > > >> >This is part of the rationalisation that Stevo delivered when he returned >> >to the roost -- just a few models with wide appeal. When he's gone out on >> > a limb it has been with something even less practical for our sort of >> > Apps -- the Cube. The fact that you cannot even order as an option a >> > bigger case and a mobo with more slots should tell you plenty about Apple >> > and the pro market. > >>This is all very true. Lets hope that with apple's clear motions in >>the direction of recapturing the audio market they will start making >>some boxes with a more professional attitude in this area. > > > > And does the fact that they dominate the pro market mean anything? I work on a > Mac with 1 PCI slots (my personal rig has 10). I prefer using an expansion > chassis as there is more flexibilty in choosing sizes. I also don't want them > to make a bigger chassis which won't fit into a 19" rack, which is a > requirement for pro use. Maybe they exsist (I haven't looked very hard) but I > haven't seen any 6 slot PCs that are rackable (not that finding a 6 slot > rackable PC is a criteria for me). > > Colin Miller > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 25 > Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 03:58:05 EDT > From: TazmnianDv@... > Subject: Re: Great trance recordings. > > Thanks for the references. I'll check Tower Records. I've noticed Limewire > has only the mainstream stuff. If I like stuff I still buy CD's by the way. > I'm going to print your list. Thanks again. > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > >