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Fractal Music

Fractal Music

2002-07-11 by TazmnianDv@aol.com

What are you guys referring to by "fractal music"? I read  a bit about 
fractal composition in the early 80's - and the general geometric principles 
of fractals - infinite and scalable self-similarity. There was an article on 
this Scientific American about 1981. I didn't really keep up on it, but I 
didn't hear of any application of it - although I don't know what methods are 
used by the algorthmic composition programs. Are you using this term 
literally or in some figurative cool way?

RE: [L-OT] Fractal Music

2002-07-11 by Tim.Dylla@t-online.de

Hi, you evil tazman ;o)!

You seem to know something about fractal basics, so here are some links to
go further in making fractal music:

http://www.hitsquad.com/smm/programs/Well_Tempered_Fractal/

(Shareware to use several fractal algorithms for making music)


http://www.hiddendimension.com/fractal_music_main.html

(a cool site...)

http://www.fignations.com/resources/frl.html

(more stuff about fractals)


If you really want to know more about fractals, I think best would be
visiting your favourite Mathematics-Professor ;o). Maybe Hendrik van
Veenstra from the LUG knows more about it ... (if I remember right, he's
math-teacher)

Regards,

	Tim
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TazmnianDv@... [mailto:TazmnianDv@...]
> Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2002 8:00 PM
> To: logic-ot@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [L-OT] Fractal Music
>
>
> What are you guys referring to by "fractal music"? I read  a bit about
> fractal composition in the early 80's - and the general geometric
> principles
> of fractals - infinite and scalable self-similarity. There was an
> article on
> this Scientific American about 1981. I didn't really keep up on it, but I
> didn't hear of any application of it - although I don't know what
> methods are
> used by the algorthmic composition programs. Are you using this term
> literally or in some figurative cool way?
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

RE: [L-OT] Fractal Music

2002-07-12 by TazmnianDv@aol.com

Thanks for the references Tim. I may not be that evil but I know a little math myself.

I did listen to the examples on the Hiddern Dimension. It appears these are windows programs. Can we start a petition to get these ported to Mac? Maybe we can arrange a trade ... Logic Audio for Windows in exchange for Fractal Music for Mac. 

By the way, is anyone using Metasynth?

RE: [L-OT] Fractal Music

2002-07-12 by Hendrik Jan Veenstra

Thoughts from the mind of Tim.Dylla@..., 11-07-2002:

>If you really want to know more about fractals, I think best would be
>visiting your favourite Mathematics-Professor ;o). Maybe Hendrik van
>Veenstra from the LUG knows more about it ... (if I remember right, he's
>math-teacher)

Correct, about the math-teacher :).  Actually, the very 1st software 
I ever wrote (on the Atari) were fractal generating programs.  Some 
pictures took more than 24 hours to render (in B&W) -- now just one 
or two seconds on a G4, in millions of colours :-))  That's progress 
for you...

A "fractal as image" is basically a picture that has a lot of 
self-similarity.  I.e if you zoom in on a part of the picture, it 
will look very much like the entire picture.  If you zoom in even 
more... ditto -- up to any level of zooming.
This is contrary to "classical" mathematical objects: if you zoom in 
enough on the edge of a circle it will become a straight line and not 
a circle at all.

The best known example of a fractal is a coastline: seen from outer 
space, a coastline looks like a wiggly line.  Get closer and see just 
1 km of the coast: still a wiggly line.  Etc, until you reach the 
level of individual pebbles and rocks: still a wiggly line.

As a mathematical object, most fractals consist of just very few (2 
or so), mostly very simple functions. The core idea is to iterate the 
functions multiple times and observe what happens.  I.e. fill in 
start values in the functions, calculate the result, then fill in 
this result in the functions, calculate the next result, and keep 
doing this for maybe 1000 times.  What will now happen to the end 
result?  Will the function-outputs become very large? Very small? 
Will they cycle through some fixed values?
Even for very simple functions, the observed behaviour is extremely 
complicated.  Filling in a certain start value like 1.2340 may lead 
to a huge end-result (like a few billion), while filling in a start 
value that is only slightly different (1.2341) leads to an end result 
of almost zero.

The nice coloured pictures that everyone has come to know as fractals 
are nothing but maps of this behaviour.  Each point in the picture is 
considered to be a point in the Cartesian plane -- i.e. a simple 
(x,y)-coordinate pair like we all know from highschool.  X and Y are 
treated as described above (i.e. they're both filled in in functions 
that take 2 arguments, x and y, and produce 2 outputs, the "next" x 
and y).  Depending on the behaviour after multiple fill-in, 
calculate, fill-in, calculate loops, the point gets a colour.  Do the 
values become huge?  Colour it red.  Do they move towards zero? 
Colour it black.  Etc.

 From a philospohical point of view, fractal math (and chaos math in 
general) is extremely interesting.  For some 2500 years, we (western) 
humans have tried to explain nature in terms of Euclidian geometry: 
straight lines, circles, squares.  Looking at just a single leaf from 
a tree it's painfully obvious how inadequate circles and lines are to 
explain its shape. It was therefore thought that the "laws of nature" 
would be extremely complex since the shapes of nature are so complex.
Fractals as mathematical objects had been known since the early 20th 
century at least, but due to the huge amount of (simple) calculations 
involved, no-one had ever seen a fractal image until somewhere in the 
60-ies, when the 1st fractal images were generated on computers. 
Then all of a sudden images appeared resembling seahorse-tails, 
leaves, ferns, wiggly coastlines and the like.

So apparently achieving "natural complexity" _was_ possible without 
the need for terribly complex formulas.  In fact, the formulas used 
were so simple, that nowadays you could even let a 15-year old with a 
computer make fractals.  I'll leave it to you to figure out the 
impact this had (and still has) on our thinking about natural laws, 
the complexity of (human?) nature and the like.

MUSIC -- to keep somewhat on topic.  I don't know much about 
fractalmusic programs.  Tried many of them (even tried to write 
some), and didn't like most of what I heard.  I think it's obvious 
that once you have simple programs generate complex shapes, people 
will want to try to adapt that to other areas of human interest, such 
as music.  Wouldn't it be possible, using similar algorithms, to 
create complex sounds?  Up to a point the answer is probably: yes. 
You can create "fractal waveforms" and use those instead of plain saw 
or sine waves -- and they needn't sound that bad at all.
However, I also tried my share of fractal composing programs -- i.e. 
software that not just produces a single 10ms fractal wave, but a 
complete "composition" based on fractal principles -- and up till now 
they've all been rather disappointing.
That's not amazing, I think: music in general is highly structured 
and non-chaotic.  Fractals, by their very nature, _are_ chaotic, and 
so don't lend themselves that well to "automated composition".  All 
imo of course.

Think about it: how would you translate the "graph" of a coastline 
into music?  Would it be interesting music?  The human eye is rather 
good at seeing structure on different scales simultaneously -- you 
can see structures that are just a few millimeters big and at the 
same time see structure on the 2-meter-canvas scale.  Add to that the 
fact that visual perception is an "all at once" thing, and not 
something that develops lineair in time.
I think the average human ear is less capable in that respect. 
Structures on the millisecond scale are hardly perceived (as 
_structures_), and a structure on the 2-hour scale must be _very_ 
obvious before you'll notice it as such.  I think we're best at 
medium-sized structures, at the multiple seconds/few minutes level 
(which probably has to do with our lineair-in-time perception of 
music).  Since fractals mainly deal with "similar structures at 
various sizes", one can wonder if sounds lends itself very well to a 
fractal-treatment.

Still that doesn't mean fractal principles are totally unsuited for 
making music.  Even in music there's an amount of chaos present -- 
chorusses repeat but are not exact copies, each performance of a 
piece is slightly different, etc, etc.  Plenty of "structured chaos" 
there.  Maybe we just have to find the right perspective before being 
able to apply fractals in music in a meaningful way.

OK, end of lecture for today :-).

-- 
Hendrik Jan Veenstra  <h@...>
Omega Art: http://www.ision.nl/users/h/index.html

RE: [L-OT] Fractal Music

2002-07-12 by Tim.Dylla@t-online.de

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Hendrik Jan Veenstra [mailto:h@...]
> Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 9:32 AM
> To: logic-ot@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [L-OT] Fractal Music
>
> MUSIC -- to keep somewhat on topic.  I don't know much about
> fractalmusic programs.  Tried many of them (even tried to write
> some), and didn't like most of what I heard.
> However, I also tried my share of fractal composing programs -- i.e.
> software that not just produces a single 10ms fractal wave, but a
> complete "composition" based on fractal principles -- and up till now
> they've all been rather disappointing.
> That's not amazing, I think: music in general is highly structured
> and non-chaotic.  Fractals, by their very nature, _are_ chaotic, and
> so don't lend themselves that well to "automated composition".  All
> imo of course.
>

Hendrik,

 I think the benefit of these fractal composing programs is not to deliver
whole and complete compositions. As you already figured out, there is a lack
of structure. I feel fine with it, cause otherwise I would be put out of
work ;o). But more than one time, these fractal compositions gave me a hint
for unusual chord-lines...

If you speak german, you can read something more about fractal composing
(with audible results ;o) here:

http://www.medienobservationen.uni-muenchen.de/FRAKTAL/fraktal.html


In the end: thanks for your post, as it is a good overview about the
mahtematical/philosophical basics of fractals. Nevertheless, I hoped to see
something more special about Attractors, and examples for fractal
formulas... Maybe you have time for a second lecture ;o)

kind regards,

	Tim

RE: [L-OT] Fractal Music

2002-07-12 by Tim.Dylla@t-online.de

> -----Original Message-----
> From: TazmnianDv@... [mailto:TazmnianDv@...]
> Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 4:21 AM
> To: logic-ot@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [L-OT] Fractal Music
>
>
> Thanks for the references Tim. I may not be that evil but I know
> a little math myself.

lucky one ;o)

> I did listen to the examples on the Hiddern Dimension. It appears
> these are windows programs. Can we start a petition to get these
> ported to Mac? Maybe we can arrange a trade ... Logic Audio for
> Windows in exchange for Fractal Music for Mac.

I knew it!!! One more reason to drop Logic for Macintosh, and support Logic
for PC ;o) for they are the better computers, as they can calculate fractals
;o)))))

By thinking, Macs are nearly exceeded - do I remember right, the realworld
tazmanian devil eats carrion ?... Pleeeease, don't snarl me to death!!!
:))))

Sorry can't hold my breath ;o)

Ok, not to give another unholy, senseless platform war a chance: this was
all a joke!!!!! But, evil tazman, let us do the petition (I've already
signed :) without comment. We (the petitioners) know that we're helpless
against marketing-pressure (in fact, that's why we do it, and it's called a
petition, and not command or law suit). So please, don't wipe salt in our
wounds!

best regards,

	Tim

RE: [L-OT] Fractal Music

2002-07-12 by Hendrik Jan Veenstra

Thoughts from the mind of Tim.Dylla@..., 12-07-2002:

>  I think the benefit of these fractal composing programs is not to deliver
>whole and complete compositions. As you already figured out, there is a lack
>of structure. I feel fine with it, cause otherwise I would be put out of
>work ;o). But more than one time, these fractal compositions gave me a hint
>for unusual chord-lines...

Okay, that might indeed be a valid compositional application of this 
stuff.  Most algorithmic composition I've come across gets quite 
boring after the initial moment of amusement, but indeed it can give 
you some useful ideas.

>If you speak german, you can read something more about fractal composing
>(with audible results ;o) here:
>
>http://www.medienobservationen.uni-muenchen.de/FRAKTAL/fraktal.html

Thanks, I'll take a look.  I had to read Kant and Hegel in German 
when I did philospohy, so I think I'll manage with the language :-).

>In the end: thanks for your post, as it is a good overview about the
>mahtematical/philosophical basics of fractals. Nevertheless, I hoped to see
>something more special about Attractors, and examples for fractal
>formulas... Maybe you have time for a second lecture ;o)

Phew... not today or this weekend...  Besides, this would get quite 
technical, I guess.  I'll see what I can do -- no promisses.  In the 
meantime you might want to surf the web a bit -- there's bound to be 
tons of info out there.  There are also quite a few good books on the 
subject, although many tend to get rather technical as well (and no, 
I wouldn't know any titles offhand -- the last time I bought a 
fractal book must be 10 years ago, so all books I have are probably 
already out of print (modern times...)).

To get you started, here's the alghorithm for _drawing_ the 
Mandelbrot set (the most famous fractal of all), since I know that by 
head by now.  It's up to you to figure out a way to apply this to 
sound -- maybe replace the colour index "n" (see step 4 below) by 
midi note-numbers???

Let the screen run horizontally from x = -2.25 to x = 0.75, and 
vertically from y = -1.5 to y = 1.5.  So that's 3 wide and 3 high. 
If you take 1 pixel = 0.01, then you'll have a 300 x 300 picture.  If 
1 pixel = 0.005, the pics will be 600 x 600.  Etc.  From now on we'll 
call this 0.01 (or 0.005) 'delta'.
The top left of the picture will thus have coordinates (-2.25, 1.5) 
and the bottom right corner is (0.75, -1.5).

For each point (x, y) do the following:

1. Set x_0 = 0, y_0 = 0.  ( _0 means subscript-0)
    Set p = x, q = y, n = 0
(note: don't get confused by the notation. (x,y) is the point on 
screen, and x_something, y_something is the stuff used for 
calculations)

2. Calculate the next x and y by means of these two:
        x_(n+1) = x_n squared  -  y_n squared  +  p
        y_(n+1) = 2 * x_n * y_n  +  q

3. Calculate r = x_(n+1) squared  +  y_(n+1) squared
    Set n = n+1

4. * If r > 16 then assign the point (x,y) on screen color n (chosen 
from an array of colours), and proceed with the next point (x, y) at 
step 1.
    * If k = 100 then colour (x, y) black, and proceed with the next 
point (x, y) at step 1.
    * If r <= 16 and k < 100, then repeat the above, continuing at step 2.

About step 4, which is the crucial "decision step":

- if r>16, it is decided that (x_n, y_n) is getting too large, and 
will "escape to infinity".  The threshold of 16 is there for a good 
reason which I won't go into now.  In that case the number of loops 
executed (n) is used to determine the colour of the point.  If it 
took 15 iterations to "escape to infinity" you could colour the point 
red, and if it took 75 iterations, you could colour it blue.  Etc.  A 
good choice for the array of colours is what distinguishes a nice 
picture from an ugly one :-).

- The "k=100" test is to make sure you don't loop indefinitely. 
After 100 loops you decide to call it a day...  Apparently the point 
isn't escaping to infinity, or at least it takes too long to do so. 
When zooming in on the boundary of the fractal, this "100" has to be 
choosen sufficiently larger, to account for the increased resolution.

- The third one is the "repeat once more" decision: we've not yet 
gotten values for x and y that are "too big", and we've not yet 
looped a 100 times, so we fill in the 'old' values of x_n and y_n in 
the formulas in 2, and calculate the next x/y, test, etc.

Note that since 100 is the upper limit on the amount of iterations, 
the colour index 'n' also will never get larger than that.  I.e. the 
above will use 100 colours at most (or midi notes :).  Of course you 
can fiddle around with this and e.g. not use 'n', but 'n modulo 25', 
so that n=1, n=26, n=51, ... will yield the same colour (or midi 
note).
Ditto when zooming in: if the upper boundary is increased to 1000 
instead of 100, you will _have_ to use some mapping of 'n' to midi 
notes, since there are only 128 midi notes :-).

Still I'm quite sure that simply using 'n' as "midi note number" will 
give quite horrible results...  Oh well, you asked for it... :-)

For those with a decent mathematical background: the x/y plane is in 
fact the plane of complex numbers z = x + iy.  In terms of complex 
numbers, the iteration function in 2 is nothing more than  z_(n+1) = 
z_n squared.  And that's amazingly simple for such a highly 
complicated result...


Uhm... does this all still qualify as "Logic off topic"??? :-))


have a nice weekend everyone,
HJ
-- 
Hendrik Jan Veenstra  <h@...>
Omega Art: http://www.ision.nl/users/h/index.html

Re: [L-OT] Fractal Music

2002-07-12 by Sumit Das

----- Original Message ----- 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "Hendrik Jan Veenstra" <h@...>
To: <logic-ot@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 12:31 AM
Subject: RE: [L-OT] Fractal Music



> That's not amazing, I think: music in general is highly structured 
> and non-chaotic.  Fractals, by their very nature, _are_ chaotic, and 
> so don't lend themselves that well to "automated composition".  All 
> imo of course.

I worked with a guy who did a LOT of research in fractal rendering
(in 4 dimensions no less!), and we created a soundtrack for one of
his animations that was based on IFS (iterated function systems).

It was an interesting sound.  He created a simple line of two or
three notes at the lowest resolution (so the total length of the line
was the length of the entire piece).  Then, each note in the original
line was replaced with a copy of the line, transposed to the note and
sped up so it fit in place of the note.  Continue this process until the
resolution is high enough to sound the way you want.

So, the form of the piece, the melodies, and the ornamentation
all had the same "shape."

It ended up sounding strangely Baroque, where the filligrees were
similar to the large-scale features of the piece.

This worked the best of any fractal-related music I have heard.
If people are interested, I can find and post what we created
(recorded using Cakewalk version 1.0!).

   -smeet

RE: [L-OT] Fractal Music

2002-07-12 by Tim.Dylla@t-online.de

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sumit Das [mailto:smeet@...]
> Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 7:44 PM
> To: logic-ot@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [L-OT] Fractal Music
 
> This worked the best of any fractal-related music I have heard.
> If people are interested, I can find and post what we created
> (recorded using Cakewalk version 1.0!).
> 
>    -smeet
> 
> 
I would be very interested!

Tim

RE: [L-OT] Fractal Music

2002-07-12 by Tim.Dylla@t-online.de

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Hendrik Jan Veenstra [mailto:h@...]
> Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 5:58 PM
> To: logic-ot@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [L-OT] Fractal Music
>

> Thanks, I'll take a look.  I had to read Kant and Hegel in German
> when I did philospohy, so I think I'll manage with the language :-).

sounds like real pleasure ;oP - at least not for me, as I had to go through
the same stuff... you have my sympathy


>>Maybe you have time for a second lecture ;o)
>
> Phew... not today or this weekend...

alright, your last post said it all. Thanks once more!

>
>
> Uhm... does this all still qualify as "Logic off topic"??? :-))

Sure, or can you imagine something more off topic? ;o)

>
> have a nice weekend everyone,
> HJ

same

Re: [L-OT] Fractal Music

2002-07-12 by Sumit Das

> > This worked the best of any fractal-related music I have heard.
> > If people are interested, I can find and post what we created
> > (recorded using Cakewalk version 1.0!).
> > 
> >    -smeet
> > 
> > 
> I would be very interested!
> 
> Tim 

OK, let me try and dig it up...

   -smeet

Re: [L-OT] Fractal Music

2002-07-12 by TazmnianDv@aol.com

Hendrik, you didn't read Mandelbrot's book by any chance did you?

>The nice coloured pictures that everyone has come to know as fractals 
>are nothing but maps of this behaviour.  .... Do the 
>values become huge?  Colour it red.  Do they move towards zero? 
>Colour it black.  Etc.


        The method of creation of these picture is simple enough, but what 
principle 
        causes these iterative processes to be self-similar? I always 
wondered that.
        (There are all manner of other algorhitms by the way - for example, 
on the 
        complex plain (where many fractals live), picking a point and seeing 
which
        of the 4 roots of z^4 -1 that point converges to using Newton's 
Method.) Its 
        interesting that there is a connection of some type between geometry 
and "algebra".


>straight lines, circles, squares.  Looking at just a single leaf from 
>a tree it's painfully obvious how inadequate circles and lines are to 
>explain its shape. It was therefore thought that the "laws of nature" 
>would be extremely complex since the shapes of nature are so complex.
...
>So apparently achieving "natural complexity" _was_ possible without 
>the need for terribly complex formulas.  In fact, the formulas used 
>were so simple, that nowadays you could even let a 15-year old with a 
>computer make fractals.  


        But the "natural" patterns like coastlines, clouds, etc.. have a 
significant amount 
        of randnomness in them - not simple mathematical formulas.


>Wouldn't it be possible, using similar algorithms, to 
>create complex sounds?  Up to a point the answer is probably: yes. 
>You can create "fractal waveforms" and use those instead of plain saw 

        There are at least two levels of fractacality - the wave form of a 
single pitch
         and the actual composition of tones. In either case, the method 
fails to be 
         truly fractal because there are small finite number of levels of 
self-similarity.


>That's not amazing, I think: music in general is highly structured 
>and non-chaotic.  Fractals, by their very nature, _are_ chaotic, and 


       I think you are mixing the concepts of randomness and order. 
       Many fractals are highly ordered - for example, the Koch curve
       (an equilaterial triangle where the sides are lengthened by 4/3 each
        iteration and you end up with a 'fuzzy' boundary, with an infinite
        perimeter, but finite area, and fractal dimension of ln(4)/ln(3)).

>so don't lend themselves that well to "automated composition".  All 
>imo of course.

        This is how this topic came up originally - a totally randomly created
         series of tone would be garbage - but if there were some 
self-similarity
         like the way a chorus had a similar melody to the verse line but 
transposed
         speed up 2x, with added embellishment notes - but similar in some 
way -
         then there must be some way of composing music that sounds good. In 
the 
         original article 20 years ago, the writer took samples of various 
types of 
         music, and processed it "fractally" and generated original music 
that sounded
         authentic in some way (but no hit songs! Unless you consider Britney 
Spears
         and the rest to be fractal processed madonna songs or whatever).


>Think about it: how would you translate the "graph" of a coastline 
>into music?  Would it be interesting music?  The human eye is rather 
>good at seeing structure on different scales simultaneously -- you 
>can see structures that are just a few millimeters big and at the 
>same time see structure on the 2-meter-canvas scale.  

        Thats just similarity, not self-similarity. You can recognize the 
        same musical motifs played high and fast or low and slow in 
        music from Beethoven's 5th to Queen's Night at the Opera.


>I think the average human ear is less capable in that respect. 


    Maybe or maybe not. Isn't there something of a universal agreement
    on the beauty of certain melodies ... from Beethoven's Fur Elise or
    Tchaikosky's Swan Lake, to "Yesterday", "Eleanor Rigby", "Satisfaction"
    "Billy Jean", .... these things have enjoyed popularity because there is 
      something beautiful about their patterns of notes. And this is where my 
      interest is. If many (but not all) people can appreciate one melody as
      beautiful but another as rubbish, there must be some inherent rules
      or reasons for this.


>Still that doesn't mean fractal principles are totally unsuited for 
>making music.  Even in music there's an amount of chaos present -- 
>chorusses repeat but are not exact copies, each performance of a 
>piece is slightly different, etc, etc.  Plenty of "structured chaos" 
>there.  Maybe we just have to find the right perspective before being 
>able to apply fractals in music in a meaningful way.

       I think you are talking about some "random" variation of a very 
controlled thing
     - actual "chaos" is more the reverse - some unexpected order in a 
seemingly 
      chaotic situation.

Re: [L-OT] Fractal Music

2002-07-12 by TazmnianDv@aol.com

Thanks for your message "Holy one" Tim. Sorry to disagree with some of the 
myths but ....

>I knew it!!! One more reason to drop Logic for Macintosh, and support Logic
>for PC ;o) for they are the better computers, as they can calculate fractals
>;o)))))

I have a fractal graphic program for Mac from some years ago -  like most 
things Windows, there is some catch up going on - Windows copying the mac 
features of yesteryear and calling them new.  I also know that the Math dept 
at Cornell University (in NY), is one of the leading research institutions 
which have developed the theory of fractals (along with UC Santa Cruz) - and 
they use Macs a lot. Much like music, movies, novels, and graphic design - 
mac-created materials thrown like pearls before the swinish Windows masses.


>tazmanian devil eats carrion ?... 

He eats everything ... including furniture. Don't taunt him, or put your hand 
near his mouth when feeding . ;->


>let us do the petition 


For what purpose? Apple does not care. They want you to buy Macs and they 
want Macs to be the main pro music platform. No amount of complaining  or 
petitions will convince them to screw themselves. And they (and all of us Mac 
users) have had our hearts hardened by Microsoft's antics - including using 
their monopoly power to

Re: [L-OT] Fractal Music

2002-07-12 by TazmnianDv@aol.com

In a message dated 7/12/02 8:58:31 AM, h@... writes:

>2. Calculate the next x and y by means of these two:
>        x_(n+1) = x_n squared  -  y_n squared  +  p
>        y_(n+1) = 2 * x_n * y_n  +  q
>


ah .... the real and imaginery parts of the complex function w = z^2!  
Complex plane after all. 

Thanks for the detailed program. For fun, without programming, you can also 
use Kai Power Tools 5.0 ... "Fractal Explorer" to create all sorts of 
pictures of fractals.

Sound Forge vs Altiverb for Sampled Reverb

2002-07-13 by Paul Nicholls

Hello,

Has anyone heard the difference between the Altiverb sampled reverb for MAS
and sound Mac VST and the sample reverbs in Sound Forge? Any assessment of
qualitative differences here?

Regards


-- Paul Nicholls
New Traditions Media
#421-6450 East Boulevard
Vancouver BC
V6M 3V9
604 269-9202
paulnicholls@...

RE: [L-OT] Fractal Music

2002-07-13 by Tobias Seyb

Hi,

I thought this could be of interest. It�s a Mac Application which creates
strange sounds out of existing sound files.

Have fun.

http://www.audioease.com/Pages/Free/FreeMain.html

RE: [L-OT] Fractal Music

2002-07-13 by Tim.Dylla@t-online.de

> -----Original Message-----
> From: TazmnianDv@... [mailto:TazmnianDv@...]
> Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2002 1:52 AM
> To: logic-ot@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [L-OT] Fractal Music
>
>
> Thanks for your message "Holy one" Tim. Sorry to disagree with
> some of the
> myths but ....
>
> >I knew it!!! One more reason to drop Logic for Macintosh, and
> support Logic
> >for PC ;o) for they are the better computers, as they can
> calculate fractals
> >;o)))))
>
> I have a fractal graphic program for Mac from some years ago -  like most
> things Windows, there is some catch up going on - Windows copying the mac
> features of yesteryear and calling them new.  I also know that
> the Math dept
> at Cornell University (in NY), is one of the leading research
> institutions
> which have developed the theory of fractals (along with UC Santa
> Cruz) - and
> they use Macs a lot. Much like music, movies, novels, and graphic
> design -
> mac-created materials thrown like pearls before the swinish
> Windows masses.
>
Never thought, it would be different. I would own a Mac, too, if there were
the right programs for me and/or more money in my pocketbag. Peace ;o) (says
holy Tim :))))
>
> >tazmanian devil eats carrion ?...
>
> He eats everything ... including furniture. Don't taunt him, or
> put your hand
> near his mouth when feeding . ;->
>
I'll be aware of this - thanks for warning..

>
> >let us do the petition
>
>
> For what purpose? Apple does not care. They want you to buy Macs and they
> want Macs to be the main pro music platform. No amount of complaining  or
> petitions will convince them to screw themselves. And they (and
> all of us Mac
> users) have had our hearts hardened by Microsoft's antics -
> including using
> their monopoly power to
>
My personal thought: it's mainly for us Users - to be free to have feelings,
and not to get overwhelmed by cold business-athmosphere and helplessness...
One very important ability of the Internet is to unite people in this very
individualistic 'global' western world in a strange and abstract way. Why
not use this benefit to feel better? And at least... maybe it changes
something little in the future - who knows?..

Regards,

 the not so holy one Tim Dylla ;o)
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Re: [L-OT] Fractal Music

2002-07-14 by Hendrik Jan Veenstra

Thoughts from the mind of Paul Wheeler&Kerry Ritson, 14-07-2002:

>                    So would it be right to say that
>                                e=dj*

Not sure how to interpret this.  Let me guess.  'e' stands for 
'empty', the asterisk (*) is the grep symbol for "zero or more 
occurences of the previous pattern", and dj is the lowercase version 
of the more commonly known DJ, or disk-jockey.
So what you say is that no matter how many DJs you take, the result 
is still empty?  Well, I guess that up to a point I would have to 
agree probably :-).

Don't see how it's related to fractals though...

-- 
Hendrik Jan Veenstra  <h@...>
Omega Art: http://www.ision.nl/users/h/index.html

Re: [L-OT] Fractal Music

2002-07-14 by Hendrik Jan Veenstra

Thoughts from the mind of Sumit Das, 12-07-2002:

>I worked with a guy who did a LOT of research in fractal rendering
>(in 4 dimensions no less!), and we created a soundtrack for one of
>his animations that was based on IFS (iterated function systems).
>
>It was an interesting sound.  He created a simple line of two or
>three notes at the lowest resolution (so the total length of the line
>was the length of the entire piece).  Then, each note in the original
>line was replaced with a copy of the line, transposed to the note and
>sped up so it fit in place of the note.  Continue this process until the
>resolution is high enough to sound the way you want.

This is a fun idea :-).  The process is much akin to how fractals 
like the Koch-curve are generated.  Did he use just plain chromatic 
notes, or did he use micro-tonalities as well?  I would think that 
with chromatic notes you would very soon run out of sufficient 
different pitches to be able to iterate the process any longer.

-- 
Hendrik Jan Veenstra  <h@...>
Omega Art: http://www.ision.nl/users/h/index.html

Re: [L-OT] Fractal Music

2002-07-14 by Hendrik Jan Veenstra

Thoughts from the mind of TazmnianDv@..., 12-07-2002:

>In a message dated 7/12/02 8:58:31 AM, h@... writes:
>
>>2. Calculate the next x and y by means of these two:
>>         x_(n+1) = x_n squared  -  y_n squared  +  p
>  >        y_(n+1) = 2 * x_n * y_n  +  q
>>
>
>ah .... the real and imaginery parts of the complex function w = z^2! 
>Complex plane after all.

Yes -- a large part of the fractal stuff takes place in the complex 
plane.  Esp. the more "natural looking" ones...

>Thanks for the detailed program. For fun, without programming, you can also
>use Kai Power Tools 5.0 ... "Fractal Explorer" to create all sorts of
>pictures of fractals.

There's a host of fractal programs for the Mac out there.  Mandella, 
for instance.  Just search some Mac shareware archives, graphics 
directory...  However, that's just the pics, which is no good if you 
want to experiment with sound.

-- 
Hendrik Jan Veenstra  <h@...>
Omega Art: http://www.ision.nl/users/h/index.html

Re: [L-OT] Fractal Music

2002-07-14 by TazmnianDv@aol.com

>>I worked with a guy who did a LOT of research in fractal rendering
>>(in 4 dimensions no less!), and we created a soundtrack for one of
>>his animations that was based on IFS (iterated function systems).

IFS was founded by a mathematician named Barnsely I believe. I bought his 
book on the subject in 1989  - its a  very fascinating book. His method is to 
use "affine" transformations which are a combination of rotations, 
reflections, stretches, compressions, and translation. Take several of these 
functions (which are expressable as matrices), and start with a single point 
- and randomly apply one transformation or the others - if you plot all of 
the points you get a fractal dust of sorts. I wrote some programs to do this 
and they created a lot of great graphics.

Re: [L-OT] Fractal Music

2002-07-14 by Paul Wheeler&Kerry Ritson

Err... it was a little einsteinian joke Hendrik.... jeez.
      I believe I unfortunately started this fractal excitement out of a
heading that went lighten up oh .......
      Sorry didn't mean to sully the rarified mathematical space with coarse
humor but I guess thats me  .Never mind I'll probably be in SX land soon .
FYI  the e stood for eccy and the * stood for squared ( couldn't work out
how to put a tiny two up there ) pretty pathetic joke really when you look
at it that way but then jokes don't stand for much examination do they .
oooh it can give a girl the quivers surrounded by such fiercely clever
people . :-))   <  thats a joke too ....one among a few over the last
fortnight

                                       A suitably chastened and emplaced
Paul

Re: [L-OT] Fractal Music

2002-07-15 by Sumit Das

> >It was an interesting sound.  He created a simple line of two or
> >three notes at the lowest resolution (so the total length of the line
> >was the length of the entire piece).  Then, each note in the original
> >line was replaced with a copy of the line, transposed to the note and
> >sped up so it fit in place of the note.  Continue this process until the
> >resolution is high enough to sound the way you want.
> 
> This is a fun idea :-).  The process is much akin to how fractals 
> like the Koch-curve are generated.  Did he use just plain chromatic 
> notes, or did he use micro-tonalities as well?  I would think that 
> with chromatic notes you would very soon run out of sufficient 
> different pitches to be able to iterate the process any longer.

Just chromatic notes.  He didn't actually subdivide pitch changes,
they were instead transposed, does this make sense?  So if
your original motif was (pitches only) C E, then:

0th iteration:  C                                    E
1st iteration:  C                E                  E                   G#
2nd iteration: C      E       E       G#       E       G#       G#      B#
3rd iteration: C  E  E G# E  G# G# B# E  G# G# B# G# B# B# D##


So, at each iteration, each note in the original motif is replaced with
a copy of the motif at half the duration, transposed to start at the
note we are replacing.  Your suggestion sounds interesting, but that
would make it much harder to hear the self-similarity, I think.

I always wanted to carry this process down to the sample level,
but I never had time to try it.

   -smeet

Re: [L-OT] Fractal Music

2002-07-16 by Hendrik Jan Veenstra

Thoughts from the mind of Sumit Das, 15-07-2002:

>[IFS]
>  > This is a fun idea :-).  The process is much akin to how fractals
>>  like the Koch-curve are generated.  Did he use just plain chromatic
>>  notes, or did he use micro-tonalities as well?  I would think that
>>  with chromatic notes you would very soon run out of sufficient
>>  different pitches to be able to iterate the process any longer.
>
>Just chromatic notes.  He didn't actually subdivide pitch changes,
>they were instead transposed, does this make sense?

Ah, yes, I see...  I'd automatically assumed that the pitch intervals 
were scaled as well.  This approach is a lot simpler...

>Your suggestion sounds interesting, but that would make it much 
>harder to hear the self-similarity, I think.

Well, it depends on what the purpose is.  If you want to hear the 
self similarity _as such_, then yes, you're right.  If you just want 
to use some fractal-ish process to create interesting sounds, then 
that doesn't matter of course.

>I always wanted to carry this process down to the sample level,
>but I never had time to try it.

Ahw, you're just lazy... :-)

-- 
Hendrik Jan Veenstra  <h@...>
Omega Art: http://www.ision.nl/users/h/index.html

Re: [L-OT] Fractal Music

2002-08-02 by Sumit Das

> > > This worked the best of any fractal-related music I have heard.
> > > If people are interested, I can find and post what we created
> > > (recorded using Cakewalk version 1.0!).
> > > 
> > >    -smeet
> > > 
> > > 
> > I would be very interested!
> > 
> > Tim 


OK, I found a link to the Iterated Function System (IFS) animation 
by John Hart with a score also generated by an IFS.  Unfortunately,
the animation is about 9MB...  If you're interested and on a slow 
connection, I can try to post just the audio somewhere.

http://graphics.cs.uiuc.edu/%7Ejch/unnatural.mov

   -smeet

RE: [L-OT] Fractal Music

2002-08-02 by Klangwerke

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sumit Das [mailto:smeet@...]
> Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 2:34 AM
> To: logic-ot@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [L-OT] Fractal Music
> 
> 
> > > > This worked the best of any fractal-related music I have heard.
> > > > If people are interested, I can find and post what we created
> > > > (recorded using Cakewalk version 1.0!).
> > > > 
> > > >    -smeet
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > I would be very interested!
> > > 
> > > Tim 
> 
> 
> OK, I found a link to the Iterated Function System (IFS) animation 
> by John Hart with a score also generated by an IFS.  Unfortunately,
> the animation is about 9MB...  If you're interested and on a slow 
> connection, I can try to post just the audio somewhere.
> 
> http://graphics.cs.uiuc.edu/%7Ejch/unnatural.mov
> 
>    -smeet
> 
Thanks smeet, fine that you kept this in mind!

Tim


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