The Logic Off Topic list

Mike Connelly wrote:
> Haven't been offensive?  "You US dudes don't give a damn" is supposed
> to be accepted as a fact backed by statistics?  Get real.

Don't rip that quote out of its context. The context was about high fuel
usage. I allready explained that I could have said "the average american
citizen".
Then the sentence would have read "the average american citizen doesn't give
a damn" - which again is backed up by facts, just have a look a the fuel
usage per person in the US, compare that to ANY other country in the world
and you'll know what I'm talking about. You might also find the word "damn"
to be inappropriate language, but then... hm.

However, most likely I know what it is that you find offensive, it's the
generalization of my comment.
But then, think about it, could you imagine saying "you german folks started
WW2"? Maybe you can and I wouldn't find that offensive at all because as a
historical fact it's just true, even if it was in no way me who started WW2.
Actually some relatives of mine died in Auschwitz.

>  So are any
> racist comments "OK" just because you can find a statistic to back it
> up?

Of course not, but usually you also won't find any statistics to back up
racist comments.
Plus, that's quite a different thing as I have been talking about economical
facts.
And it's just true that the average american doesn't give a damn about
ecological things, otherwise you wouldn't have a 100% higher per person
usage of energy than he whole rest of the world.
Of course it's 100% clear that I don't mean you as a person, but hey, there
must be someone causing these facts, and if it's noone in special, then it
must be the north american person in general.

I have no idea if this makes sense to you at all, but I can't explain it any
better in english which isn't my native language.

Regards,
Sascha

> But then, think about it, could you imagine saying "you german folks started
> WW2"? Maybe you can and I wouldn't find that offensive at all because as a
> historical fact it's just true, even if it was in no way me who started WW2.

Correction, Hitler was an Austrian... although one could argue that if there
wasn't Hitler, it would have been someone else who would have inspired enough
people to go to war. And when we go back even more, one could say that actions
against Jewish people have started in the UK before 1900... but I guess I'm
posting this to the wrong list (way too OT).

> And it's just true that the average american doesn't give a damn about
> ecological things, otherwise you wouldn't have a 100% higher per person
> usage of energy than he whole rest of the world.

I think many Europeans don't give a damn either. The only reason why we use less
energy is because it costs much more to us, I think. American fuel prices are
about half of European fuel prices e.g.

Ciao,
Joeri
--
Joeri Vankeirsbilck
joeri@...

Belway Productions      -     http://www.belway.com
List-admin   Logic-users/SoundD*ver-users/Logic-TDM

Joeri Vankeirsbilck wrote:
> Correction, Hitler was an Austrian...

Well, of course I know he was an austrian, but people usually tend to say
"the germans started WW2". And of course nobody is finding this offensive
(well, maybe some of those neo-fascistic assholes will...).

> although one could argue that if there
> wasn't Hitler, it would have been someone else who would have inspired
enough
> people to go to war.

Maybe, but only maybe. In the end it were "us" germans who felt the need to
follow an idiot like Hitler, for whatever reasons (there's that interesting
book of Daniel Goldhagen, dunno the english title, but it's basically
dealing with some explanations why the germans back then were appealed so
much by an obviously f***** up person like Hitler).

> And when we go back even more, one could say that actions
> against Jewish people have started in the UK before 1900...

I'm not too much experienced in this, but actions against jews started way
earlier, basically it's like a red line all through history.

> but I guess I'm
> posting this to the wrong list (way too OT).

Hm, we could easily take it back to the LUG... :-)
Honestly, it's so quite here on the LUG-OT, why not discuss way too OT stuff
as well?

> I think many Europeans don't give a damn either. The only reason why we
use less
> energy is because it costs much more to us, I think. American fuel prices
are
> about half of European fuel prices e.g.

Please don't get me wrong, it was in NO way my intention to start something
like a "Europe = good, US = bad" thread. I'm actually arguing with some of
my very best friends about their car fetischisms (damn, how do you spell
that word?) quite often, too.
And again, if you read what I wrote originally, I was saying that the "US
dudes" don't give a damn about fuel useage just because it's cheap. Maybe we
wouldn't give a damn too.
But there's lots of other prominent examples that I really don't understand.
In the US you'll find the highest drink water usage per person as well.
Now have a look what this results in in basically dry areas such as
California...
You will also find the highest meat per person consumption. Given that the
"7 plant calories to raise 1 meat calory" statement is true (and actually
things look even worse because intensive raising of animals surely results
in a lot of other disadvantages) this is just no good as well.

Ok, before I'm starting to generalize too much again, I'd better stop.

I really hope that nobody is getting me wrong, I don't have problems with
north americans as persons at all, actually I even have some friends over
there, but that wasn't what I was talking about. I was only talking about
easy to prove facts, I didn't accuse anybody to be responsible for that
personally because I know that things aren't that easy.
Maybe, if was born and grew up in the the US I would drive a Cadillac. Maybe
I would shower 3 times a day. Maybe I would eat only burgers and steaks. All
these things are up to socialization and personally I grew up in a world
where we can allready see all the mess that man-made things could result in
and I also grew up in a family where everybody cared about such things kinda
traditionally.

So far,
Sascha

>"You US dudes don't give a damn"

>"the average american citizen doesn't give
>a damn"

First off, those are two very different statements (although both 
still sweeping generalizations).

>  - which again is backed up by facts, just have a look a the fuel
>usage per person in the US, compare that to ANY other country in the world
>and you'll know what I'm talking about.

Since when can you equate fuel consumption with giving a damn?  Sure, 
there are people driving inefficient cars, but there are many other 
people who, while using as little fuel as possible, simply have no 
choice but to drive long distances to get to work!  Trust me, MANY 
people would use less gas if there were some way to make that 
possible.

Mike