The Logic Off Topic list

I will keep posting this till the new forum at rocketnetwork's scrolling
issues are resolved

This weeks forum was attended by: janpulsford, haggan, BetaBrett,
LennieJ, OnlineSupport-TDM, BrianF, MixMasterMark, timmymacdd, DJ-Allard
and oink.

The topic this week was pre-mastering for CD production.

The following is a heavily edited summary of the forum chat:


 janpulsford says, "ok so what's on the agenda oinksahib"
oink says, "back to mastering plugins and apps"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "i think mastering at home is dangerous"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "if you dont have super speakers"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "and first item for good mastering is a jitter
eliminator IMO"
 janpulsford says, "yes but sometimes mastering else-where is cost
prohibitive"
 LennieJ says, "I suppose U could do more harm than good  "
 janpulsford says, "what is a jitter eliminator?"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "it cleans the digital clock signal"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "most times the gritty sound of digital is
caused by jitter"
oink says, "what do you use for that ?"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "jitter is caused by cables, bad converters"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "there are a bunch of companies that make
jitter cleaneup devices"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "one cheap solution seems the Rosendahl"
oink says, "tell us more"
 janpulsford says, "so the jitter affects the sound or the timing, tdm?"

 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "well once you got the box you use it during
recording too"
 janpulsford says, "or both?"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "yes the clock signal is a square wave and it
shifts in time which is called jitter"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "just  a small shift and the sound gets gritty"

 janpulsford says, "oh interesting. . "
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "these boxes inject a stabile clock signal into
the converter"
oink says, "sounds expensive"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "so you have the converter always locked to
THAT sync"
 janpulsford says, "so this is a seperate issue from D/A convertors as
far as sound goes?"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "yes not cheap"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "no its part of the DA problem jan"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "3 important issues in mastering :"
 janpulsford says, "so if i wanted to improve my sound would u recommend
this box or a really good convertor?"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "1: phase coherency"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "2: DC offset"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "3: jitter"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "often they do just that and it becomes crystal
clear again"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "all these mastering plugs wont cure it"
 janpulsford says, "right"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "often they just compress and worsen it"
oink says, "what if we do everything internally, soft synths etc, will
we still get jitter ?"
 janpulsford says, "very good tip here hanno"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "jitter happens at the AD/DA stage"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "and inside the cables"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "the longer the digital cables the more jitter"

oink says, "understood"
 LennieJ says, "K so is this box automatic  or does it require tweaking"

 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "so thats why the mastering guys have the
price+advantage"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "no the box just gives a clean clock signal to
the converter"
oink says, "so if we stay in the digital domain....... "
oink says, "will this be of advantage ?"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "no oink you burn the jitter to CD "
 LennieJ says, "ah OK"

 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "another place where jitter can be induced :
cd-burners"
 janpulsford says, "is that why mastering engineers prefer dats?"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "and lastly the DA of the consumers cd player
wil add jitter again for sure"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "well dats have another type of error
correction than CDs"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "both write errors though"
 janpulsford says, "hmm . .so back to analog?"
 janpulsford says, "hehe"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "the preferrred medium is data tapes like
exabyte= no errors written"
oink says, "expensive again"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "sure "
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "but the jitter box is a good investment"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "and it will eliminate so much jitter that it
al sounds better again"
oink says, "so if we can have our stuff mastered without jitter, it will
improve the final result on home players, even if they get jitter at
their end ?"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "the problem is all the added up jitter from AD
to final consumers CD player"
 janpulsford says, "so which box do you reommend hanno?"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "the less jitter the better"
 janpulsford says, "with a url if possible (-:"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "i know weiss makes a small good one"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "i want to try the rosendahl"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "let me check the urls"
 janpulsford says, "thanx"
 LennieJ says, "so ideally this box should be used from start ta
finish?"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "yep"
 BrianF joined the Session.
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "http://www.weiss.ch/clockwork/clockwork.html"
oink says, "hmm"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "this one is about 500 $"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "the rosendahl is more versatile and is around
1k$"
 BrianF says, "what are we chatting about?"
oink says, "about jitter at the moment"
 BrianF says, "that's a nasty subject"
oink says, "and why its better to get mastering done by Pros"
 BrianF says, "hmm, that what I mainly do these days"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "ahh aardvark is another one"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "its the most expensive i think"
 BrianF says, "a  very nice box"
 BrianF says, "but a bit pricey"
 BrianF says, "did anyone see the article in Audio Media with the clock
shoot out?"
oink says, "no , what was the conclusion ?"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "lets hear it"
 BrianF says, "well the clocks used were the Aardsync,Rosendal, Apogee
PSX 100 and Digi VSD"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "and ???"
 BrianF says, "The Aardsync was first then the Apogee and Rosendal and
then Digi"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "thanx for the info"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "i heard the aardsync was good"
 BrianF says, "very good"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "i dont like apogee at all"
 BrianF says, "though bang for the buck the psx did quite well. the
article should be on the audio media web site"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "http://www.syence.co.uk/rosendahl.html#nano"
oink says, "here's a good resource:
http://www.essrl.wustl.edu:80/~adl/mastering/"
 janpulsford says, "http://www.aardvark-pro.com/aardsync_lit.html"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "anyway I recommend these kind of boxes for
anybody doing pro-audio work"
 BrianF says, "so are we talking about sync issues or just clocking"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "actually it was mastering plugs"
oink says, "pre-mastering"
 BrianF says, "ok"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "but i brought up the issue because its often
the cure no1"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "jitter "
oink says, "Brian; did you get the PSP plugs ?"
 BrianF says, "no "
 BrianF says, "PSP plugs are...?"
 janpulsford says, "were they free oink?"
oink says, "no, they had a deal for lug-ers"
 janpulsford says, "how much?"
oink says, "half price"
oink says, "theyare from poland"
oink says, "but quite nice it seems"
 BrianF says, "link?"
 janpulsford says, "and they are worth it?"
oink says, "or so far i find them good"
oink says, "haven't had much time with them yet"
 janpulsford says, "http://www.pspaudioware.com/indexen.html"
oink says, "but at that price the supplement LAP quite well"
 BrianF says, "for most of my mastering stuff I'm in SADiE land so I use
a bit of outboard and some pc bits. But for mixing and logic this looks
great"
  janpulsford says, "anyone finding a lot of the vst plug ins make the
treated sound too quiet?"
BrianF says, "like which one?"
 janpulsford says, "i'm always having to boost the mixed signal"
oink says, "hmm"
 janpulsford says, "well most of them"
 BrianF says, "hmm... too"
oink says, "on Logic's plugs ?"
 janpulsford says, "yes there's always a noticle diff"
 BrianF says, "wierd I haven't had that"
 janpulsford says, "well i wonder what it would be"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "with all plugs?"
 janpulsford says, "i'm using the motu 1224"
 janpulsford says, "i would say 75% of them"
 BrianF says, "logic plugs or vst?"
 janpulsford says, "both"
oink says, "I'm wondering too"
oink says, "channel inserts or bus FX ?"
 janpulsford says, "channel inserts"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "tell us of a plug where you notice it a lot"
 janpulsford says, "well let me do one now . .  .give me a mo"
oink says, "now i want to throw open the question of dithering"
 BrianF says, "Pow-R"
oink says, "who has an opinion on when not to dither"e"
 BrianF says, "only at the end of the day. Unless you're using something
like the L2 which is 48bit and needs to come back down. When mastering I
only dither at the very end when I got to make the CD"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "same here"
 BrianF says, "lots of flavors out there"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "what i really want to know is : when i use the
audio window command : copy/convert, what does it do?"
oink says, "ok that sounds good, what about L2"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "i guess they truncate"
 BrianF says, "I imagine in convert they do but I would hope not in
"copy:"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "sure"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "you can choose a new format but no dithering"
 BrianF says, "if you change the bit depth then it gets chopped"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "they need to give a choice !"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "i want to be able to dither there"
 BrianF says, "then if would have to be a bounce"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "thats no good IMO"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "so jan , you say the echo plug reduces
volume?"
 janpulsford says, "when you add the delay it's set at 50% default and
is always quiter then the original signal"
 janpulsford says, "yes hanno you can see and hear it using the bypass
button"
oink says, "notice that volume is at full at either end of the mix fader
in delay"
oink says, "Jan: it seems they used linear faders instead of
logarithmic"
oink says, "I was talking about the mix fader in the tape dealy plugin"
 janpulsford says, "ok . . u can see what i mean though?"
oink says, "yes"
 janpulsford says, "there is a notable difference"
oink says, "its definitely there at 50%"
oink says, "but at 0 and 100% it goes back to normal"
oink says, "thats why i drew the analogy of linear faders in hardware"
 janpulsford says, "well oink . .there is more level at 100 than 0"
oink says, "yes there is too, but feedback probably accounts for some"
 janpulsford says, "ok i see but with the bypass on it's dead even"
 janpulsford says, "i just find it a real pain  . . . "
oink says, "it is"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "I understand you jan"
oink says, "its like someone picked the wrong algorithm for mixing"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "but I would just make up some gain at the
faders knowing it"
 janpulsford says, "thanks  . . "
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "its maybe just 2db difference"
 BrianF says, "so who is using which dither, UV22, IDR POW-R ect"
oink says, "I got more than 2db here"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "good question brian"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "til now i used the waves idr mostly"
oink says, "recommendations please ?"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "uv 22 is supposed to dangerous if you have to
re-dither"
 BrianF says, "pow-r is nice but pricey and mainly in hardware."
 BrianF says, "UV22 on low is ok and then redither not a problem"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "what about logics dither plug?"
 BrianF says, "you will get some low level noise and distortion"
 BrianF says, "I haven't tried the LOGIC one, sorry Gerhard!"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "so which do you prefer brian?"
 BrianF says, "I have a Cranesong Dither that is really nice. I did a
test recenlty with the POW-R, the UV22 and L2. Made a cd and gave it to
some folks ,everyone liked something different"
 BrianF says, "The pow-R is the most transparent"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "and thats hardware ?"
 BrianF says, "yes"
oink says,"i guess the hearing range of the listener will come into it
too"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "and were back to speakers hehe"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "i still havent found my speakers that i keep
forever"
 BrianF says, "the powr is available for SADiE as a plug and in the Z
systems boxes. The L2 IDR is much better the L1"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "isnt there a soft L2 out now?"
 BrianF says, "yes but I haven't tried it"
 BrianF says, "TDM only"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "i heard its good"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "ahh tdm only"
 BrianF says, "I'm sure it's good. The hardware has nice A/D as well"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "thats what i hear yes"
 BrianF says, "much nicer than Apogee"
 OnlineSupport-TDM says, "so the powr is in the zelnicker boxes as well
...didnt know that"





***********************************************************************
 Disclaimer: I have edited this chat substantially, but done my utmost
to maintain the sense of what was said. This is to be regarded as only a

precis of the actual chat, and any unforseen or contentious inference
that can be drawn form one line to the next, is purely unintentional on
my part, and cannot be attributed to the persons who posted the chat.

***********************************************************************

I am now posting the ART summary in the new Forums in the rocketnetwork
studio centers. From this week I will be reducing the size of this
summary down to a few lines. If you still wish to receive the Summary in

this fuller form, email me at oink@..., and I'll continue
sending it to you.

Dave Eager [oink]