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LPC2148 identifyed as a LPC2138?

LPC2148 identifyed as a LPC2138?

2006-01-07 by tiltedkeyboard

Is it normal for the Philips Flash Utility (2.2.3) to ID a LPC2148 as
a LPC2138?

I'm using a Olimex LPC-P2148 with a clearly marked and correcly
identifyed LPC-2148 part (ID 196389).
I know that they have equal amount of ROM & RAM, but since the LPC2148
*do exist* in the dropdown box *i assumed* it would be selected.

One other thing.
Why have a dropdown box if the only thing the user can do is to
autodetect the part and watch the dropdownbox get 'locked' with
whatever the program feels i correct?
Back to the drawingboard guys! ;-)

What else can i expect to be wierd in this utility?
Is there anything i should know of that can
render my part useless?

Re: LPC2148 identifyed as a LPC2138?

2006-01-07 by jayasooriah

On LPCs the part ID is stored as a parameter in the boot sector.  It
is quite possible the boot sector was loaded or updated incorrectly.

--- In lpc2000@yahoogroups.com, "tiltedkeyboard" <tiltedkeyboard@y...>
wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Is it normal for the Philips Flash Utility (2.2.3) to ID a LPC2148 as
> a LPC2138?
> 
> I'm using a Olimex LPC-P2148 with a clearly marked and correcly
> identifyed LPC-2148 part (ID 196389).
> I know that they have equal amount of ROM & RAM, but since the LPC2148
> *do exist* in the dropdown box *i assumed* it would be selected.
> 
> One other thing.
> Why have a dropdown box if the only thing the user can do is to
> autodetect the part and watch the dropdownbox get 'locked' with
> whatever the program feels i correct?
> Back to the drawingboard guys! ;-)
> 
> What else can i expect to be wierd in this utility?
> Is there anything i should know of that can
> render my part useless?
>

Re: LPC2148 identifyed as a LPC2138?

2006-01-07 by tiltedkeyboard

--- In lpc2000@yahoogroups.com, "jayasooriah" <jayasooriah@y...> wrote:
>
> On LPCs the part ID is stored as a parameter in the boot sector.  It
> is quite possible the boot sector was loaded or updated incorrectly.
> 

No, the part is correctly identifyed as a "196389".
According to the User Guide that is a LPC-2148.

It seems that it is the Philips Flash Util that don't *select* the
right part (probably due to a bug) after having read a correct ID.

Re: [lpc2000] Re: LPC2148 identifyed as a LPC2138?

2006-01-07 by Peter Jakacki

You will find that the 2148 manual is incorrect and has not been updated 
in this respect. Read the 2138 manual and you will find that the part id 
for the 2138 is 196389 which is what you are reading and so the utility 
is correct. My 2148s read 67305253 (0x0402FF25) which is the correct 
part id for 2148s.

Here is my cpu id table I use to identify devices.

CPUID:   
    dc32    2104d,0xFFF0FF12
    dc32    2105d,0xFFF0FF22
    dc32    2106d,0xFFF0FF32
    dc32    2114d,0x0101FF12
    dc32    2119d,0x0201FF12
    dc32    2124d,0x0101FF13
    dc32    2129d,0x0201FF13
    dc32    2131d,0x0002FF01
    dc32    2132d,0x0002FF11
    dc32    2134d,0x0002FF12
    dc32    2136d,0x0002FF23
    dc32    2138d,0x0002FF25
    dc32    2141d,0x0402FF01
    dc32    2142d,0x0402FF11
    dc32    2144d,0x0402FF12
    dc32    2146d,0x0402FF23
    dc32    2148d,0x0402FF25
    dc32    2194d,0x0301FF13

    dc32    2210d,0x0301FF12
    dc32    2290d,0x0301FF12

    dc32    2212d,0x0401FF12
    dc32    2214d,0x0601FF13
    dc32    2292d,0x0401FF13
    dc32    2294d,0x0501FF13
    dc32    0


*Peter*

tiltedkeyboard wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> No, the part is correctly identifyed as a "196389".
> According to the User Guide that is a LPC-2148.
>
> It seems that it is the Philips Flash Util that don't *select* the
> right part (probably due to a bug) after having read a correct ID.

Re: LPC2148 identifyed as a LPC2138?

2006-01-07 by tiltedkeyboard

--- In lpc2000@yahoogroups.com, Peter Jakacki <peterjak@t...> wrote:
>
> You will find that the 2148 manual is incorrect and has not been
updated 
> in this respect. Read the 2138 manual and you will find that the
part id 
> for the 2138 is 196389 which is what you are reading and so the utility 
> is correct. My 2148s read 67305253 (0x0402FF25) which is the correct 
> part id for 2148s.

Hmm...Okay. 

Thank you for that input. Seems like one can't trust the manual
- Great! ;-)

Is there any possibility to fix the ID on my 2148 chip? It's located
in ROM i guess?

I don't really see why a 2148 part ever need to identify itself as a
2138, even thou they are almost identical apart from the USB device port.

Re: [lpc2000] Re: LPC2148 identifyed as a LPC2138?

2006-01-08 by Peter Jakacki

That's what I was wondering, is it really a 2148? How is it marked?

If you wanted to force the 2148 bootloader in then I guess you could try 
updating the bootloader at your own risk. There is an appnote at;

http://www.semiconductors.philips.com/files/products/standard/microcontrollers/utilities/lpc2000_bl_update.zip

I can send you a copy of the 2148 hex file if you need this.

What I'm worried about is if your chip is really a 2148 then why does it 
have the 2138 bootloader. If you conclusively confirm it is a 2148 
(markings, fast I/O, USB, etc) then I would find out from Philips what 
is going on first.

*Peter*


tiltedkeyboard wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Hmm...Okay. 
>
> Thank you for that input. Seems like one can't trust the manual
> - Great! ;-)
>
> Is there any possibility to fix the ID on my 2148 chip? It's located
> in ROM i guess?
>
> I don't really see why a 2148 part ever need to identify itself as a
> 2138, even thou they are almost identical apart from the USB device port.
>

Re: LPC2148 identifyed as a LPC2138?

2006-01-08 by tiltedkeyboard

Well,

I took the Keil (eight LED) blinkyIRQ (my first ever ARM project) and
modified the LED output a little for my (two LED) Olimex board. 
Worked the first time.

Encouraged, i moved on to the USB Memeory example project...
...which didn't work (did anyone get suprised? :P). 
Probably due to the hardware looking a bit different around the
connect pin....

Then i found the IAR HID Mouse example (Olimex = IAR starterkit, i
think) as a HEX and uploaded it to the flash.
Worked like a charm. 

So this one is a LPC214x for sure. :)

Chip top marking:
LPC2148FBD64
S60652.1
ZPG0521-Y

LPC2000 flash utility 223 says:

Part ID: 196389
Boot loader ID: 2.1

Go figure.. 

--- In lpc2000@yahoogroups.com, Peter Jakacki <peterjak@t...> wrote:
>
> That's what I was wondering, is it really a 2148? How is it marked?
> 
> If you wanted to force the 2148 bootloader in then I guess you could
try 
> updating the bootloader at your own risk. There is an appnote at;
> 
>
http://www.semiconductors.philips.com/files/products/standard/microcontrollers/utilities/lpc2000_bl_update.zip
> 
> I can send you a copy of the 2148 hex file if you need this.
> 
> What I'm worried about is if your chip is really a 2148 then why
does it 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> have the 2138 bootloader. If you conclusively confirm it is a 2148 
> (markings, fast I/O, USB, etc) then I would find out from Philips what 
> is going on first.
> 
> *Peter*

Re: [lpc2000] Re: LPC2148 identifyed as a LPC2138?

2006-01-08 by Peter Jakacki

Ok, looks like this may have been an earlier sample as I have bootloader 
2.11 and it ids as a 2148 fine.

FYI, my chip markings are:

LPC2148FBD64
S60652.20
ZPG0528-Y


Maybe you can take a stab at updating the bootloader, I'll email you the 
hex file.

*Peter*

tiltedkeyboard wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Well,
>
> I took the Keil (eight LED) blinkyIRQ (my first ever ARM project) and
> modified the LED output a little for my (two LED) Olimex board. 
> Worked the first time.
>
> Encouraged, i moved on to the USB Memeory example project...
> ...which didn't work (did anyone get suprised? :P). 
> Probably due to the hardware looking a bit different around the
> connect pin....
>
> Then i found the IAR HID Mouse example (Olimex = IAR starterkit, i
> think) as a HEX and uploaded it to the flash.
> Worked like a charm. 
>
> So this one is a LPC214x for sure. :)
>
> Chip top marking:
> LPC2148FBD64
> S60652.1
> ZPG0521-Y
>
> LPC2000 flash utility 223 says:
>
> Part ID: 196389
> Boot loader ID: 2.1
>
> Go figure..

Re: LPC2148 identifyed as a LPC2138 ?

2006-01-08 by jayasooriah

I find it strange that users have to struggle part ID which this is
the very first parameter in the boot block.

Has Philips said anythig about this anywhere?

--- In lpc2000@yahoogroups.com, Peter Jakacki <peterjak@t...> wrote:
>
> Ok, looks like this may have been an earlier sample as I have
bootloader 
> 2.11 and it ids as a 2148 fine.
> 
> FYI, my chip markings are:
> 
> LPC2148FBD64
> S60652.20
> ZPG0528-Y
> 
> 
> Maybe you can take a stab at updating the bootloader, I'll email you
the 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> hex file.
> 
> *Peter*

Re: [lpc2000] Re: LPC2148 identifyed as a LPC2138 ?

2006-01-09 by Peter Jakacki

Since these parts are officially still sampling then the earlier parts 
would logically have the 2138 bootloader as the Philips engineers would 
know this would work, the 2148 being the same as the 2138 but with some 
enhancements. The part ID is a very minor thing in what are essentially 
prototypes so I guess they may have overlooked it or there may have been 
lack of communication between the engineers, production, and sales 
(yeah, it works).

The fact that my chips which were supplied quite some time ago have the 
proper bootloader indicates that Philips has attended to this minor 
hiccup (this one at least).

I would be interested to hear more about bootloader corruption as I have 
not experienced this myself. Unlike you, I am "unfortunate" not to have 
a bunch of students invoking the uninvocable :) :)

*Peter*



jayasooriah wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> I find it strange that users have to struggle part ID which this is
> the very first parameter in the boot block.
>
> Has Philips said anythig about this anywhere?

Re: LPC2148 identifyed as a LPC2138 ?

2006-01-10 by jayasooriah

Dear Peter,

This response is for you, and like minded people here who are curious
as to where I am coming from with respect the LPC boot loader.

If those who are easily upset or offended when I challenge your esteem
of Philips or their LPC microcontroller, please read no further.  With
due respect, I will however say to you that Philips can take care of
itself without you having to shoot down this thread.

No Peter, I do not have a bunch of students working on this.  All I
found and said here is arises from work I did myself.  Here is the
story of how I am involved with LPC and how I found out what I did.

As open as I like to be, you will appreciate my not discussing things
related to "client requirements" in this forum for obvious reasons.

I first looked at LPC2105 as a viable alternative to expose students
to the ARM architecture.  The Intel StrongARM and XSCALE variants they
are now using is more expensive.

The very nature of ARM/THUMB interworking is that when (bad) code
fails, there is an added level of complexity because there are two
instruction sets involved that are intermixed.

My experience with students working on Intel StrongARM with AMD flash
was quite different to that for the LPC when such things happen.

In the StongArm/XSCALE platforms with AMD flash, there was never an
instance of flash corruption arising out of bad code.  [Aside, even
when this happened, we simply used JTAG to re-flash and we were back
in business.]

In the case of LPC, I destroyed one prototype myself because (I think)
I missed out on linker warning that interworking call was incorrect. 
Considering we already had three prototypes out of action, I decided
to contact Philips for help.

Philips offered to send me a hex file containing boot loader if I had
access to a parallel programmer.  [After this parallel programming
method raised in this forum, Philips thought it fit to advice me that
its earlier advice was incorrect.]

I explained to Philips my requirement to replace the boot loader, and
asked if it would publish the flash architecture.  Alternatively I
asked if it was expressed forbidden to reverse engineer the algorithm
by disassembly of the code in the boot sector or boot loader updates
it had published.

The response from Philips was that flash algorithms were not available
in a form that did not have proprietary information in it.  Philips
also said that because there are timing requirements that may not be
met if I write my own algorithms, it will not guarantee the part.

I spent a good part of an entire week disassembling the boot loader. 
I extracted on-chip flash algorithms quite easily.  I was surprised to
learn that it would be possible to destroy on-chip flash by  simply
trashing one or more locations in memory.

Unlike in the case of AMD flash in the earlier board which had feed
sequence requirements (0xaa followed by 0x55), the on-chip flash
controller for LPC had no such requirements.

This meant that even if I took away the flash programming code in the
boot loader for my students, they could still destroy the part by this
way quite easily.  If it happened in three of five prototypes, that is
not a good sign

The other thing I found that was of academic interest initially, was
that it appears that charge pump timing parameters are required to be
set when flash is programmed.

I can see why Philips would not publish flash architecture: algorithm
is not protected, and charge pump timings have to be specified.  It is
quite possible that the part could be fried (permanantly destroyed) by
incorrect timing parameters, and hence said it would not guarantee the
part.

Having looked at the boot loader, I could not help visually composing
the code myself such that GNU assembly of the equivalent source would
produce an identical binary image.  I did this as an exercise to make
sure my interpretation was accurate at the binary image level.

I was less than impressed with the code.  The CSI (command string
interpreter that decodes and dispatches ISP commands) was broken.  In
the context of CRP in the other LPC parts I was quite shocked at the
claims made in relation to how safe is CRP.

How can one be expected to rely on a CRP regime that requires boot
loader code to secure the device on reset, when the primary external
world interface to boot loader, CSI, on the 2105 part is broken.

Many have argued that I have to do the same for current code in other
LPC parts with CRP feature to prove my point.  I beg to disagree.  I
do not have access to any other part than 2105.  More importantly I
dont have to prove to anyone CRP can be defeated.   People in this
field can make up their own minds.

I have just stated on this forum what I found broken, and what I think
the consequences are for CRP, and so on.  It would be simple matter
for Philips to comf forth and acknowledge the CSI problem in 1.51 boot
loader for 2105, and tell us if this exists for the other parts.

Philips has chosen not to acknowledge the CSI problem.  This must mean
that either Philips does not know of this vulnerability, or that if it
does, it does not wish to discuss this to mitigate damages.  By the
way, I use the term "damages" not in a legal sense, but damage to its
esteem in the eyes of its customers.

The more I look at my boot loader source the more I find out about
things like hidden "T" command that allows you to modify boot loader
state (where CRP information is kept) using GPIO pins to toggle the
data in, the "tEsT" argument that programmers thought no one will
discover because it is spelt in alternate case, and so on.

If this is the thought process of the boot loader programmers, there
is no way I would recommend anyone, be it my clients or not, to rely
on the boot loader for purposes of securing IP whether or not CRP is
enabled.

So why am I beating up dead horse?   Well I have invested enough time
to and effort on LPC that is still useful in different circumstances.

Although 2105 does not have the CRP feature, IP can nonetheless be
protected in this part, and indeed on any of the other LPCs including
those with external memory interface, if you decided not to use the
supplied boot loader.

For those who seem bent on shooting down this thread with statements
like "you have not proven how to break CRP", ask yourself what would
be gained by publishing exploits on this forum.

As an academic I am committed to telling all I know so that others may
learn, but at the same time, I also recognise and accept that it is
not responsible to post vulnerabilities, especially if there are
already parts in the field with code that is "CRP protected".

Sorry this is a long answer to your short question, but I thought
telling the full story could help quench some of the anger coming from
a vocal few bent on shooting down discussion by abuse and insults.

I am off for two weeks starting next week.  I am happy to address any
issues arising from this post on this forum or by email as appropriate
in the meanwhile.

Kind regards,

Jaya


--- In lpc2000@yahoogroups.com, Peter Jakacki <peterjak@t...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> I would be interested to hear more about bootloader corruption as
> I have  not experienced this myself. Unlike you, I am "unfortunate"
> not to have a bunch of students invoking the uninvocable :) :)
> 
> *Peter*

Re: [lpc2000] Re: LPC2148 identifyed as a LPC2138 ?

2006-01-10 by Robert Adsett

At 01:19 AM 1/10/06 +0000, jayasooriah wrote:
>Unlike in the case of AMD flash in the earlier board which had feed
>sequence requirements (0xaa followed by 0x55), the on-chip flash
>controller for LPC had no such requirements.

Actually I consider that less a protective feed sequence and more the call 
sequence for invoking the state machine in the flash.  It ends up serving 
the same purpose since the flash algorithm is essentially in a hidden 
address space.

>I was less than impressed with the code.  The CSI (command string
>interpreter that decodes and dispatches ISP commands) was broken.

How so?  The obvious would be buffer overflows which cold conceivably open 
it up quite far.

>For those who seem bent on shooting down this thread with statements
>like "you have not proven how to break CRP", ask yourself what would
>be gained by publishing exploits on this forum.

I would have thought that was obvious.  It shows it can be done.  There is 
something to be said for the courtesy of informing Philips before doing so 
but most security vulnerabilities appear to have only been addressed when 
the holes are demonstrated, not just talked about.  Until it is shown with 
how much ease security can be bypassed claims about that ease are generally 
disregarded by most people concerned.

Of course in some parts of the world it may now be questionable as to 
whether it is legal to perform any research on this question so some people 
may not want to take that risk...

>As an academic I am committed to telling all I know so that others may
>learn, but at the same time, I also recognise and accept that it is
>not responsible to post vulnerabilities, especially if there are
>already parts in the field with code that is "CRP protected".

If there is a security hole is it more responsible to expose it before more 
people rely on it or to keep it hidden?  See above if you are wondering why 
I would consider the discussion so far to be one that leant towards keeping 
it hidden.

BTW, it's of little concern to me.  I don't have a lot of use for code 
protection.  For the stuff I've done, although the code is significant it 
cannot stand alone.

Exploding flash on the other hand :)

Robert

" 'Freedom' has no meaning of itself.  There are always restrictions,   be 
they legal, genetic, or physical.  If you don't believe me, try to chew a 
radio signal. "  -- Kelvin Throop, III
http://www.aeolusdevelopment.com/

Re: LPC2148 identifyed as a LPC2138 ?

2006-01-10 by jayasooriah

--- In lpc2000@yahoogroups.com, Robert Adsett <subscriptions@a...> wrote:

> I would have thought that was obvious.  It shows it can be
> done.  There is  something to be said for the courtesy of
> informing Philips before doing so but most security
> vulnerabilities appear to have only been addressed when 
> the holes are demonstrated, not just talked about.

Things come out in the public domain when one party wants to take the
other party out (usually egged by a competitor) to manipulate the
market.  The fact that this has not happened is an indication that
Philips is not a contender for the security market.

> Until it is shown with how much ease security can be
> bypassed claims about that ease are generally disregarded
> by most people concerned.

Not so by the people who make them, let me assure you.  There are far
reaching consequences when claims are relied upon that are later
discovered to be false or misleading or even deceptive.

When the manufacturers goes quiet and do not comment on such issues,
it is usually a sign heads are rolling and finger pointing is going
inside the organisation that they do not want us to know.

> Of course in some parts of the world it may now be questionable
> as to whether it is legal to perform any research on this question
> so some people may not want to take that risk...

Precisely my point.
 
> If there is a security hole is it more responsible to expose
> it before more people rely on it or to keep it hidden?  See
> above if you are wondering why I would consider the discussion
> so far to be one that leant towards keeping it hidden.

There are good arguments for and against.  So it is a matter of ethics
really, and which side you lean on.

IMO it perfectly okay to discuss risks relating to is to putting the
front door key in the flower pot or under the floor rug but saying
so-and-so puts his key at such-and-such a place is just not on.

IMO it is NOT okay to fetch the encrypted password files for a bunch
of users without seeking their permission and and trying crack it for
academic purposes with the undertaking that any cracked password will
not be used.

This is akin to allowing someone to try a of keys on your front door
without your knowledge with the undertaking they will will not remove
anything from your house if they succeeded.

This is an area where there two people have three opinions.

If we come back to the topic, why 2148 identifies itself as 2138, it
can be as minor as slackness to as grave as systemic problems at the
organisation level.

Undocumented commands and hidden arguments is a serious breach of
security because this was a deliberate action on the part of the
programmers.

Watever the reasons are, these impact on the trust issue I spoke
about.  When Philips will not admit to the existence of methods that
you know and can prove exist (by disassembling boot sector of your
part), I cannot why anone should admit boot loader code or Philips
into their trust domain.

Jaya

Re: [lpc2000] Re: LPC2148 identifyed as a LPC2138 ?

2006-01-10 by Robert Adsett

At 09:35 AM 1/10/06 +0000, jayasooriah wrote:
>--- In lpc2000@yahoogroups.com, Robert Adsett <subscriptions@a...> wrote:
>
> > I would have thought that was obvious.  It shows it can be
> > done.  There is  something to be said for the courtesy of
> > informing Philips before doing so but most security
> > vulnerabilities appear to have only been addressed when
> > the holes are demonstrated, not just talked about.
>
>Things come out in the public domain when one party wants to take the
>other party out (usually egged by a competitor) to manipulate the
>market.

Well, that's one motivation.  Public service and reputation are others.

> > Of course in some parts of the world it may now be questionable
> > as to whether it is legal to perform any research on this question
> > so some people may not want to take that risk...
>
>Precisely my point.

It is?  I missed that completely then.  BTW, if it wasn't obvious I think 
banning research on security flaws is somewhere between pointless and 
self-defeating.

>
> > If there is a security hole is it more responsible to expose
> > it before more people rely on it or to keep it hidden?  See
> > above if you are wondering why I would consider the discussion
> > so far to be one that leant towards keeping it hidden.
>
>There are good arguments for and against.  So it is a matter of ethics
>really, and which side you lean on.
>
>IMO it perfectly okay to discuss risks relating to is to putting the
>front door key in the flower pot or under the floor rug but saying
>so-and-so puts his key at such-and-such a place is just not on.

Fair enough, but the analogy may be better put as showing whether a certain 
brand of lock  is easily bypassed.  In that case I don't think there is an 
ethical breach in demonstrating the flaw, indeed it strikes me more as a 
consumer service.  Now if you then go ahead and publish which neighbours 
are using that as the front door lock you have another issue entirely.

>IMO it is NOT okay to fetch the encrypted password files for a bunch
>of users without seeking their permission and and trying crack it for
>academic purposes with the undertaking that any cracked password will
>not be used.

I won't disagree with you on that.

>If we come back to the topic, why 2148 identifies itself as 2138, it
>can be as minor as slackness to as grave as systemic problems at the
>organisation level.

Indeed.

>Undocumented commands and hidden arguments is a serious breach of
>security because this was a deliberate action on the part of the
>programmers.

Security yes, although in the case of the 2104/5/6 that's rather a moot 
point.  The question will be how much of that was redone and to what effect.

I also agree that security through obscurity isn't.

>Watever the reasons are, these impact on the trust issue I spoke
>about.  When Philips will not admit to the existence of methods that
>you know and can prove exist (by disassembling boot sector of your
>part), I cannot why anone should admit boot loader code or Philips
>into their trust domain.

Maybe they are looking for the moral equivalent of a child lock?  Not 
something to protect against a concerted attempt, just something to 
indicate that you consider the internals proprietary.

Robert

" 'Freedom' has no meaning of itself.  There are always restrictions,   be 
they legal, genetic, or physical.  If you don't believe me, try to chew a 
radio signal. "  -- Kelvin Throop, III
http://www.aeolusdevelopment.com/

Re: LPC2148 identifyed as a LPC2138 ?

2006-01-10 by jayasooriah

[discussion mode -- please skip if you find this post long]

--- In lpc2000@yahoogroups.com, Robert Adsett <subscriptions@a...> 
> It is?  I missed that completely then.  BTW, if it wasn't obvious
> I think banning research on security flaws is somewhere between
> pointless and self-defeating.

Agreed.  I do not believe there is any such ban in effect.  If there
were, then there would not be umpteen textbooks and articles on these.

Simply put, it is not unlawful to be a locksmith by profession.  It
may be to break the prefessional code of conduct.

> Maybe they are looking for the moral equivalent of a child
> lock?  Not something to protect against a concerted attempt,
> just something to indicate that you consider the internals
> proprietary.

I do not think CEP security was meant as child's play or for child
proofing purposes.  See the post with the term "preying eyes".

Look a the claims and the veracity with which Philips defended its CEP
on this forum before the flaws in the boot loader were exposed.

I am not a lawyer.  I have dealt with many on such matters, IMO

a) The claims in the data sheets are at best inaccurate.

b) The claims made by Philips on this forum are misleading.  I am not
sure if or how one would show intent.

It is now in the open that the boot loader CSI fails and that it has,
hidden commands and hidden arguments for known commands (trojans).

I would not be surprised if Philips is now frantically looking into
CSI vulnerabilities as we speak.  It is quite obvious a freeze has
been put on discussoin of these issues between the engineering and
support teams within.

Should further claims be made without reference to the issues raised,
it may be quite possible to show "deceptive and misleading conduct"
that is unlawful in most countries.

Anyone who is has LPCs out in the field and relies on its CEP features
for protection of IP or for security purposes should seek profesional
opinion.

However, for the rest of us who are just using 2105 as a platform for
doing creative things and not concerned with CEP, there is nothing to
stop us from continue to enjoy this part, and the trend it has set in
terms of availability of cheap ARM cores.

Jaya

Re: [lpc2000] Re: LPC2148 identifyed as a LPC2138 ?

2006-01-11 by Robert Adsett

At 10:43 PM 1/10/06 +0000, jayasooriah wrote:
>--- In lpc2000@yahoogroups.com, Robert Adsett <subscriptions@a...>
> > It is?  I missed that completely then.  BTW, if it wasn't obvious
> > I think banning research on security flaws is somewhere between
> > pointless and self-defeating.
>
>Agreed.  I do not believe there is any such ban in effect.  If there
>were, then there would not be umpteen textbooks and articles on these.
>
>Simply put, it is not unlawful to be a locksmith by profession.  It
>may be to break the prefessional code of conduct.

Nicely put.  I was referring to the DMCA (on which there has been many 
articles). Purely U.S. of course but I have heard rumors of some countries 
considering it as a template for their own laws.  I seem to recall that 
there was one well known security researcher that left the field because of 
it.  And several from outside the US have expressed concerns about 
attending conferences inside the US.

You can see

http://www.eff.org/IP/DMCA/20030102_dmca_unintended_consequences.html
http://www.eff.org/IP/DMCA/

to see some of the concern being expressed there.

>I would not be surprised if Philips is now frantically looking into
>CSI vulnerabilities as we speak.  It is quite obvious a freeze has
>been put on discussoin of these issues between the engineering and
>support teams within.
>
>Should further claims be made without reference to the issues raised,
>it may be quite possible to show "deceptive and misleading conduct"
>that is unlawful in most countries.

You may be right.

Keep up the gadfly work.  I think the back and forth here between you and 
your critics has resulted in a firmer foundation for your questions.

>Anyone who is has LPCs out in the field and relies on its CEP features
>for protection of IP or for security purposes should seek profesional
>opinion.
>
>However, for the rest of us who are just using 2105 as a platform for
>doing creative things and not concerned with CEP, there is nothing to
>stop us from continue to enjoy this part, and the trend it has set in
>terms of availability of cheap ARM cores.


They are rather nice.

Robert

" 'Freedom' has no meaning of itself.  There are always restrictions,   be 
they legal, genetic, or physical.  If you don't believe me, try to chew a 
radio signal. "  -- Kelvin Throop, III
http://www.aeolusdevelopment.com/

LPC2148

2006-01-11 by Mauricio Scaff

Hi,

Since appears that Philips guys read this forum, maybe they could answer 
some questions:

When you will update all that <tbd> specifications in the datasheet ?
Is there any silicon bug in the USB ? Why do I have to put pulldown 
resistors in that pins to lower the power requirements ?
I just can't set my power consumption lower than 450uA, no matter what i do.

Thanks, Mauricio

Re: LPC2148 identifyed as a LPC2138?

2006-01-11 by philips_marketing_usa

First I want to apologize for the delay in our involvement in this 
posting thread.  Many good points have been raised on either side of 
the issue and this is indeed a complex issue with no easy answers.

When we first launched the LPC2148, a few hundred pieces were given 
part ID's of LPC2138 and the flash was tested as LPC2138, since the 
flash blocks are identical between the two families.  We tried to 
assure that these "LPC2138-identified" LPC2148 parts were only given 
to our evaluation board suppliers.  Unfortunately, it appears that a 
few of these parts were either circulated to our users or some of 
these parts were removed from evaluation boards.  After the initial 
batch of LPC2148 parts, all future parts were given correct LPC2148 
ID's.  I sincerely apologize for any confusion that we caused.

Philips Marketing


--- In lpc2000@yahoogroups.com, "tiltedkeyboard" 
<tiltedkeyboard@y...> wrote:
>
> Is it normal for the Philips Flash Utility (2.2.3) to ID a LPC2148 
as
> a LPC2138?
> 
> I'm using a Olimex LPC-P2148 with a clearly marked and correcly
> identifyed LPC-2148 part (ID 196389).
> I know that they have equal amount of ROM & RAM, but since the 
LPC2148
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> *do exist* in the dropdown box *i assumed* it would be selected.
> 
> One other thing.
> Why have a dropdown box if the only thing the user can do is to
> autodetect the part and watch the dropdownbox get 'locked' with
> whatever the program feels i correct?
> Back to the drawingboard guys! ;-)
> 
> What else can i expect to be wierd in this utility?
> Is there anything i should know of that can
> render my part useless?
>

Re: LPC2148 identifyed as a LPC2138 ?

2006-01-14 by jayasooriah

Aplogise for the delayed response ...

--- In lpc2000@yahoogroups.com, Robert Adsett <subscriptions@a...> 
> Nicely put.  I was referring to the DMCA (on which there has
> been many articles). Purely U.S. of course but I have heard
> rumors of some countries considering it as a template for
> their own laws.

DCMA did not enter my mind.  If you look at the law as it stands, it
has very specific exclusions in relation to research.

> I seem to recall that there was one well known security
> researcher that left the field because of it.

However, as is the case in any law, it is subject to abuse by those
who will do anything to make more money.  It is possible the Professor
did cross the thin line between open-ended research and targeted
exploitation of security technology deployed by a particular
organisation or individual.

I had a look at the site you referred to, and skimming through the
issues, a lot of the fuss seems to be that the law is being applied
incorrectly.  I suspect when decisions of the Courts sets precedence,
this law will prove to be a winner in the long run for all.

Jaya

LPC2148

2006-02-16 by alan_in_nz

I am using an LPC2148 with a 32.768KHz crystal on the RTC oscillator 
pins. I need to internally route the resulting 32.768KHz clock and 
output it to a GPIO pin. Is this possible? If so how and what pin is 
best to use as the output GPIO pin? The datasheet I have been looking 
at does not seem to have (as far as I can see) a detailed block 
diagram which shows the clock schemes for this device and how I could 
achieve this. If anyone has done this or knows how to do this I would 
appreciate the help. Thanks. Alan

Re: [lpc2000] LPC2148

2006-02-16 by Tom Walsh

alan_in_nz wrote:

>I am using an LPC2148 with a 32.768KHz crystal on the RTC oscillator 
>pins. I need to internally route the resulting 32.768KHz clock and 
>output it to a GPIO pin. Is this possible? If so how and what pin is 
>best to use as the output GPIO pin? The datasheet I have been looking 
>at does not seem to have (as far as I can see) a detailed block 
>diagram which shows the clock schemes for this device and how I could 
>achieve this. If anyone has done this or knows how to do this I would 
>appreciate the help. Thanks. Alan
>
>
>  
>
That sounds odd.  I had to put a resistor in series with the crystal to 
drop the drive level of the LPC2xxx oscilator circuit.  That circuit 
should have plenty of output level to drive other logic?  If not, why 
not just stick a FET into the osc circuit and buffer your 32KHz into 
your other logic?

TomW


>
>
> 
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> 
>
>
>  
>


-- 
Tom Walsh - WN3L - Embedded Systems Consultant
http://openhardware.net, http://cyberiansoftware.com
"Windows? No thanks, I have work to do..."
----------------------------------------------------

Re: LPC2148

2006-02-16 by Danish Ali

I don't think there is a signal path that would allow you to route
the RTC oscillator to a pin.
Is there a reason you can't use a PWM derived from the main cystal?
Hope this helps,
Danish

--- In lpc2000@yahoogroups.com, "alan_in_nz" <alan.tompkins@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> I am using an LPC2148 with a 32.768KHz crystal on the RTC oscillator 
> pins. I need to internally route the resulting 32.768KHz clock and 
> output it to a GPIO pin. Is this possible? If so how and what pin is 
> best to use as the output GPIO pin? The datasheet I have been looking 
> at does not seem to have (as far as I can see) a detailed block 
> diagram which shows the clock schemes for this device and how I could 
> achieve this. If anyone has done this or knows how to do this I would 
> appreciate the help. Thanks. Alan
>

Re: LPC2148

2006-02-16 by arm7dude

Tom,

In production environments, you would like to "tune" the oscillator
circuit so that the rtc runs on time. Having a 32768 hz output makes
this really easy. National Semi had some rtc chips that could output
the clock for "tuning." This is the only time I ever used it. 

To do tuning, you need a calibrated crystal from the crystal
manufacturer. You can then change the load caps until the frequency
come out right. You have to do this as the stray capacitance on the
board can only be approximated.

Adding 3-5 pf with a jfet to tap off the signal can makes measuring
the clock tricky. Bob Pease in his troubleshooting books claims ~1pf
and the best I could ever do was ~ 3-5 pf. 

If you need a 32kc clock and low power, this is the best solution I've
found. Every other oscillator I built with gates or transistors
consumed more power.

As I recall, even taking the signal from the output of the chip and in
front of the series resistor still pulled the crystals frequency.

Ed

--- In lpc2000@yahoogroups.com, Tom Walsh <tom@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> alan_in_nz wrote:
> 
> >I am using an LPC2148 with a 32.768KHz crystal on the RTC oscillator 
> >pins. I need to internally route the resulting 32.768KHz clock and 
> >output it to a GPIO pin. Is this possible? If so how and what pin is 
> >best to use as the output GPIO pin? The datasheet I have been looking 
> >at does not seem to have (as far as I can see) a detailed block 
> >diagram which shows the clock schemes for this device and how I could 
> >achieve this. If anyone has done this or knows how to do this I would 
> >appreciate the help. Thanks. Alan
> >
> >
> >  
> >
> That sounds odd.  I had to put a resistor in series with the crystal to 
> drop the drive level of the LPC2xxx oscilator circuit.  That circuit 
> should have plenty of output level to drive other logic?  If not, why 
> not just stick a FET into the osc circuit and buffer your 32KHz into 
> your other logic?
> 
> TomW
> 
> 
> >
> >
> > 
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> > 
> >
> >
> >  
> >
> 
> 
> -- 
> Tom Walsh - WN3L - Embedded Systems Consultant
> http://openhardware.net, http://cyberiansoftware.com
> "Windows? No thanks, I have work to do..."
> ----------------------------------------------------
>

Re: [lpc2000] Re: LPC2148

2006-02-16 by Tom Walsh

arm7dude wrote:

>Tom,
>
>In production environments, you would like to "tune" the oscillator
>circuit so that the rtc runs on time. Having a 32768 hz output makes
>this really easy. National Semi had some rtc chips that could output
>the clock for "tuning." This is the only time I ever used it. 
>
>  
>
Good point, I'd not thought about the gate capacitance.

TomW

-- 
Tom Walsh - WN3L - Embedded Systems Consultant
http://openhardware.net, http://cyberiansoftware.com
"Windows? No thanks, I have work to do..."
----------------------------------------------------

Re: [lpc2000] Re: LPC2148

2006-02-16 by Tom Walsh

arm7dude wrote:

>Tom,
>
>In production environments, you would like to "tune" the oscillator
>circuit so that the rtc runs on time. Having a 32768 hz output makes
>this really easy. National Semi had some rtc chips that could output
>the clock for "tuning." This is the only time I ever used it. 
>
>To do tuning, you need a calibrated crystal from the crystal
>manufacturer. You can then change the load caps until the frequency
>come out right. You have to do this as the stray capacitance on the
>board can only be approximated.
>  
>
Now that brings up a thought.  You don't use surface mount caps in 
production, or do you? Do you tune each crystal or only  a few crystals 
within a Lot Number and then run the rest off with that value?

In the past, clock circuits on most boards used a higher frequency xtal 
to divide down to 32KHz.  We had set the 2.45MHz (example) using freq 
counter.  I've not a lot of experience with how the 32KHz is going to 
behave.  This board of mine is the first real 32KHz clock design so I'd 
like to avoid some problems that you've seen?

TIA,

TomW



-- 
Tom Walsh - WN3L - Embedded Systems Consultant
http://openhardware.net, http://cyberiansoftware.com
"Windows? No thanks, I have work to do..."
----------------------------------------------------

Re: LPC2148 - 32.768KHz

2006-02-16 by alan_in_nz

As I have not built the circuit yet and is still in layout I was 
unsure of the drive strength. So you are saying that I could "pick" 
off the 32.768KHz outside the LPC2148 and then buffer it and not 
have any start-up problems. The reason I was going to route it out 
through a GPIO was to make use of the internal buffering etc inside 
the device. But your suggested method would also be okay.
Thanks Tom.

--- In lpc2000@yahoogroups.com, Tom Walsh <tom@...> wrote:
>
> alan_in_nz wrote:
> 
> >I am using an LPC2148 with a 32.768KHz crystal on the RTC 
oscillator 
> >pins. I need to internally route the resulting 32.768KHz clock 
and 
> >output it to a GPIO pin. Is this possible? If so how and what pin 
is 
> >best to use as the output GPIO pin? The datasheet I have been 
looking 
> >at does not seem to have (as far as I can see) a detailed block 
> >diagram which shows the clock schemes for this device and how I 
could 
> >achieve this. If anyone has done this or knows how to do this I 
would 
> >appreciate the help. Thanks. Alan
> >
> >
> >  
> >
> That sounds odd.  I had to put a resistor in series with the 
crystal to 
> drop the drive level of the LPC2xxx oscilator circuit.  That 
circuit 
> should have plenty of output level to drive other logic?  If not, 
why 
> not just stick a FET into the osc circuit and buffer your 32KHz 
into 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> your other logic?
> 
> TomW
> 
> 
> >
> >
> > 
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> > 
> >
> >
> >  
> >
> 
> 
> -- 
> Tom Walsh - WN3L - Embedded Systems Consultant
> http://openhardware.net, http://cyberiansoftware.com
> "Windows? No thanks, I have work to do..."
> ----------------------------------------------------
>

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