MOTM

At 8:48 PM -0600 2002/02/13, J. Larry Hendry wrote:
>Here is the idea:  Feed the gate signal into the VC lag.  Set the down lag
>time for zero. Take the output and run to 3 comparators.  Each comparator is
>set to turn on its output at a progressively higher level. The output of
>each comparator is used as the delayed gate.  So, now I have 4 gate signals
>turning on a 4 different times - the original gate, and the 3 comparator
>outputs. The up lag time sets the overall delay range.  The comparator set
>points set the relationship between gate times. Since the 820 is set for lag
>only in the up position, all gates would end at the same time.

You can sort of do this will a few 700s. Plug the 820 outs to the 700 
CV ins. Plug a DC bias into the IO A/C inputs. Plug nothing into IO 
B/D inputs. Set the thresholds to different values to get delayed 
gate outputs.

>The more I think about comparators, the more useful I see these generic and
>apparently useful utility circuits.  I guess I am surprised that more people
>on the list have not talked about them.

I'd like to see some kind of comparator functionality in a future 
module. With thresholds for both the up side and the down side (sort 
of like adjustable hysteresis). These thresholds would be voltage 
controllable, of course.

My little brain has been thinking a lot about comparators lately.  I was
just thinking of a concept where some comparators coupled with the wonderful
MOTM-820 VC lag might make nice "multiple gate delay."

Here is the idea:  Feed the gate signal into the VC lag.  Set the down lag
time for zero. Take the output and run to 3 comparators.  Each comparator is
set to turn on its output at a progressively higher level. The output of
each comparator is used as the delayed gate.  So, now I have 4 gate signals
turning on a 4 different times - the original gate, and the 3 comparator
outputs. The up lag time sets the overall delay range.  The comparator set
points set the relationship between gate times. Since the 820 is set for lag
only in the up position, all gates would end at the same time.

The more I think about comparators, the more useful I see these generic and
apparently useful utility circuits.  I guess I am surprised that more people
on the list have not talked about them.

Of course, I have to admit to absolutely no modular experience before MOTM.
So, I run into ideas that are "new" to me that may be completely old hat to
you guys with more experience.

Stooge Larry

Scott is correct. DC into 700 'B IN' = comparator. I have a standard 
patch that uses this to generate a delayed gate. 

Moe

Well, I guess I never thought about the 700.  I tend to forget about that
great module all the time. And, I guess instead of using a bias voltage as
the voltage is switches to, the gate could be mult-ed over to that input
too.  Then you would be absolutely certain all gates ended exactly at the
same time.

The more I think I know about this, the less I realize I do.

Thanks Scott and Dave.  Off to do some delayed gates with the 700 + 820...
:)
Larry

----- Original Message -----
From: mate_stubb <mate_stubb@...>
To: <motm@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 10:22 PM
Subject: Re: [motm] Comparators


Scott is correct. DC into 700 'B IN' = comparator. I have a standard
patch that uses this to generate a delayed gate.

Moe





Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

The 700 _can_ be used for some of these comparator purposes, and it's great in a pinch for things like this, but it is a bit of overkill for a very simple electronic function, if you're going to use it a lot. And personally, I find gate delays _very_ useful.

This is not in any way a negative endorsement of the 700---I think every system should have several of them! But I hate to tie mine up long-term doing things that an 8-pin chip from Radio Shaft can do. (Yes, I know it's not quite that simple.)

Considering how simple comparator circuits are... and how useful... it might be nice to have a module or two with simple workhorse/utility functions like this (and logic / electronic gate functions) to add some of the "analog computer" features to the modular which might lead to some wild gating effects.

For those who wonder, "Why on earth would I want my modular to act like an analog computer?" I re-submit this link that went around the list last year: http://www.nearfield.com/~dan/music/chaos/Chaosrel.htm

Mr. T

> Considering how simple comparator circuits are... and how useful... it might
> be nice to have a module or two with simple workhorse/utility functions like
> this (and logic / electronic gate functions) to add some of the "analog
> computer" features to the modular which might lead to some wild gating
> effects.

YES!!!!!!! oh how i fiend for such circuitry for my real modular... the
nord is my only way to get those particular jollies off at the moment...
if modules like this ever saw the light of day, i wouldn't see much
daylight for a long time. :) i would go way overboard on them. there's
always the "buy a rack of doepfer option", but you have to get the whole
case too and it's just a mess...

bleep.
out.

---
www.mp3.com/leichenfeld
www.mp3.com/captainhotrod
www.mp3.com/silenttristero

Shouldn't be hard to do. Might make a good Stooge module. I need an 
excuse to learn PIC programming anyway - might make a good starter 
project before I tackle sequencers. Maybe some combination of:

comparators
one-shots
AND/OR/XOR/NOR universal logic
NOT

Can anyone think of anything else that should be on this list?

Moe

> Considering how simple comparator circuits are... and how useful... 
> it might be nice to have a module or two with simple 
> workhorse/utility functions like this (and logic / electronic gate 
> functions) to add some of the "analog computer" features to the 
> modular which might lead to some wild gating effects.

Only guitar players fret.

("Oh, shoot that guy!")

-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Schreiber [mailto:synth1@...] 

Stop fretting. I'll supply these in the next batch of releases.

Paul S.

Stop fretting. I'll supply these in the next batch of releases.

Paul S.

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "blip" <bleep@...>
To: "MOTM list" <motm@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 10:02 AM
Subject: Re: [motm] Comparators


> 
> > Considering how simple comparator circuits are... and how useful... it might
> > be nice to have a module or two with simple workhorse/utility functions like
> > this (and logic / electronic gate functions) to add some of the "analog
> > computer" features to the modular which might lead to some wild gating
> > effects.
> 
> YES!!!!!!! oh how i fiend for such circuitry for my real modular... the
> nord is my only way to get those particular jollies off at the moment...
> if modules like this ever saw the light of day, i wouldn't see much
> daylight for a long time. :) i would go way overboard on them. there's
> always the "buy a rack of doepfer option", but you have to get the whole
> case too and it's just a mess...
> 
> bleep.
> out.
> 
> ---
> www.mp3.com/leichenfeld
> www.mp3.com/captainhotrod
> www.mp3.com/silenttristero
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
>

> comparators
> one-shots
> AND/OR/XOR/NOR universal logic
> NOT
>
> Can anyone think of anything else that should be on this list?

other useful logic functions are positive and negative edge delays... that
sounds like a whole other module though... or can the 820 do this?

(i am unreasonably happy at hearing paul's "next batch" comment... but the
current batch is barely out, so i'm assuming it might be a while? it's fun
to be a demanding customer! :)

bleep.
out.

---
www.mp3.com/leichenfeld
www.mp3.com/captainhotrod
www.mp3.com/silenttristero

>Shouldn't be hard to do. Might make a good Stooge module. I need an
>excuse to learn PIC programming anyway - might make a good starter
>project before I tackle sequencers. Maybe some combination of:
>
>comparators
>one-shots
>AND/OR/XOR/NOR universal logic
>NOT
>
>Can anyone think of anything else that should be on this list?
>
>Moe

Yes, a digital logic delay. This is similar to a digital delay for 
audio but it is intended for logic signals. You only need one bit of 
resolution (signal is high or low), and a sampling frequency of 1 KHz 
to get millisecond resolution. You'd want to support at least 10 
seconds of delay and have multiple taps. And there's no need to 
anti-alias anything.

Consider it to be the ultimate gate delay that preserves both up and 
down transitions as well as gate sequences. If you were to input a 
sequence of gate pulses, they would come out the other end exactly as 
you put them in but delayed (by up to 10 seconds).

This module is on my "to do" list, but it could be years before I get 
around to building such a thing. Please, somebody else build it.

>Maybe some combination of:
>
>comparators
>one-shots
>AND/OR/XOR/NOR universal logic
>NOT
>
>Can anyone think of anything else that should be on this list?

Ironically, there was an old response to an earlier thread that I never
sent that I deleted while cleaning my outbox last night.  I decided it
wasn't worth posting due to current backlog of designs.

In short, my idea was that simple boolean logic wasn't up to motm standards
-- what are you going to wrap $2 in CMOS chips in $100 of hardware??   A
nice example of this would be the Serge logic module -- obviously useful,
but easily built on perfboard.

Rather than consider everything above a certain threshold low, and
everything above a certain threshold high -- giving two state logic -- how
about a module that was truly analogue??   For example:

AND -- produces the sum of the inputs if all are over zero
OR -- outputs the highest input voltage
XOR -- outputs the highest input voltage if the others are zero
NOT --  outputs the absolute value of the input voltage minus five volts

Consider these as "single-sided" examples where negative voltages are
considered zero (ie. blocked with a diode), notice the results of these
analogue functions are the same as their digital counterparts for inputs of
0 and 5V, but would provide all sorts of useful analogue functions for the
voltages in between.

(Granted, the AND function would need some sort of output limiter to keep
things safe.  Perhaps instead of the sum, it could output the highest
voltage if all inputs are over zero.  That would still work, and may be
more useful since a voltage mixer is now part of the system.)

You could also add:

NOR -- outputs the lowest input voltage
window comparator -- a comparator with two thresholds

Unlike a boolean version, these "analogue gates" could be used to sort note
priority, invert envelopes, process LFO's, process drum triggers with
"velocity", etc., and to a limited extent process audio (eg. using an OR
gate as a "ring mod").

Perhaps the previously discussed "analogue shift register" could be altered
to perform the function of a one-shot (a digital shift register),  creating
a pulse-divider that retains the amplitude of the input signal.

Anyway, I've played around with the "analogue gate" idea by "shadowing"
op-amp circuits with CMOS gates and muxes, so it feasible without using a
PIC or AD/DA converters.   Regardless, modules that could perform "analogue
logic" would be much more useful than modules that simply perform "digital
logic".

Better quit while you're ahead.

Moe
>>>>
Only guitar players fret.

("Oh, shoot that guy!")
<<<<

Fuzzy logic module, for sure! The front panel should be flocked and have

a small pair of fuzzy dice on the silkscreen.

(Scores of folks hit google.com with a search for "fuzzy logic".)

BTW, if anyone is interested in coding a PIC design project, contact me
privately.

Regards,
___________________
John Blacet
Blacet Research
http://www.blacet.com

This is not logic stuff, but Inverter/Clipper/Rectifier/Amplifier 
functions would be very cool.

Mike

--- In motm@y..., "mate_stubb" <mate_stubb@y...> wrote:
> Shouldn't be hard to do. Might make a good Stooge module. I need an 
> excuse to learn PIC programming anyway - might make a good starter 
> project before I tackle sequencers. Maybe some combination of:
> 
> comparators
> one-shots
> AND/OR/XOR/NOR universal logic
> NOT
> 
> Can anyone think of anything else that should be on this list?
> 
> Moe
> 
> > Considering how simple comparator circuits are... and how 
useful... 
> > it might be nice to have a module or two with simple 
> > workhorse/utility functions like this (and logic / electronic 
gate 
> > functions) to add some of the "analog computer" features to the 
> > modular which might lead to some wild gating effects.

At 8:51 PM +0000 2002/02/14, mmarsh100 wrote:
>This is not logic stuff, but Inverter/Clipper/Rectifier/Amplifier
>functions would be very cool.
>
>Mike

I've been using the Miniwave Socket Rocket to do voltage controlled 
clipping/rectification/overdrive. Can these not be done with the 
Oakley Wavefolder as well?

The "Axis of Evil Gate", the "Let's Roll" gate, the "Security Search"
gate.

I suppose you could brew up a gate that would do all kinds of transforms
on an input, according to a stored waveform. It might look a lot like a
Mini Wave.

But if you need more than one logic input, you would have to use the
wave select input and code the EPROM with that in consideration. Grant's
new Socket Rocket has a window comparator already in place.
___________________
John Blacet
Blacet Research
http://www.blacet.com

Wasn't there something mentioned before about a dual
VCA module?  Whatever happened to that?  Did all of
these forthcoming micromodules take precedence?

thanx
jeph

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> Wasn't there something mentioned before about a dual
> VCA module? 

Add me to the waiting list for that one....

Les Mizzell

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Some days you're the dog; 
some days you're the hydrant.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

How about a 1U module single vca that does pan/fade?

--- In motm@y..., "Paul Schreiber" <synth1@a...> wrote:
> The MOTM-130 is not dead. It's a dual VCA with Pan/Fade.
> 
> But, maybe a 1U simpler dual VCA without pan/fade should be 
released first? Discuss!
> 
> Paul S.
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "VCOVCAVCF" <vcovcavcf@y...>
> To: <motm@y...>
> Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 4:27 PM
> Subject: [motm] MOTM dual VCA???
> 
> 
> > Wasn't there something mentioned before about a dual
> > VCA module?  Whatever happened to that?  Did all of
> > these forthcoming micromodules take precedence?
> > 
> > thanx
> > jeph
> > 
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
> > http://greetings.yahoo.com
> > 
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> > 
> >

The MOTM-130 is not dead. It's a dual VCA with Pan/Fade.

But, maybe a 1U simpler dual VCA without pan/fade should be released first? Discuss!

Paul S.

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "VCOVCAVCF" <vcovcavcf@...>
To: <motm@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 4:27 PM
Subject: [motm] MOTM dual VCA???


> Wasn't there something mentioned before about a dual
> VCA module?  Whatever happened to that?  Did all of
> these forthcoming micromodules take precedence?
> 
> thanx
> jeph
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
> http://greetings.yahoo.com
> 
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
>

At 4:34 PM -0600 2002/02/14, Paul Schreiber wrote:
>The MOTM-130 is not dead. It's a dual VCA with Pan/Fade.
>
>But, maybe a 1U simpler dual VCA without pan/fade should be released 
>first? Discuss!
>

More VCAs are always useful, but I'd MUCH rather see the 130 first.

> The MOTM-130 is not dead. It's a dual VCA with Pan/Fade.
> 
> But, maybe a 1U simpler dual VCA without pan/fade should be released first? Discuss!
> 
No, dual vca pan/fade is my strong preference as the next module for
release (after the micromodules and cs-80 type filter you have listed on
the motm order form).

I like the micro's, especially for the small real estate impact (I can mix
signals with a mixer instead of having the mixer in a 2U module).
However, the pan/fade is going to be a very useful addition that I don't
currently have (but have long been looking forward to).
Jeff

Just ordered another 110, which makes that # 3.  Would of rather had a 130.
Maybe we should vote?
Joe

Personally, I would prefer the MOTM-130 dual VCA
first.

jeph


--- Paul Schreiber <synth1@...> wrote:
> The MOTM-130 is not dead. It's a dual VCA with
> Pan/Fade.
> 
> But, maybe a 1U simpler dual VCA without pan/fade
> should be released first? Discuss!

> > Wasn't there something mentioned before about a
> dual
> > VCA module?  Whatever happened to that?  Did all
> of
> > these forthcoming micromodules take precedence?


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Moe sez:

130!
130!
130!
130!

> The MOTM-130 is not dead. It's a dual VCA with Pan/Fade.
> 
> But, maybe a 1U simpler dual VCA without pan/fade should be 
> released first? Discuss!

In the next few days, we will have a Quad VCA/Mixer. It doesn't have a
zillion parts but works extremely well. For for a panel layout keep an
eye on the Blacet site.

There are a lot of ways to design VCAs; I suspect this one will be very
useful. I plan on a motm kit (panel guys, oh panel guys...).

Regards,

--
___________________
John Blacet
Blacet Research
http://www.blacet.com

Please... Dual w/ Pan/Fade!

--- Paul Schreiber <synth1@...> wrote:
> The MOTM-130 is not dead. It's a dual VCA with
> Pan/Fade.
> 
> But, maybe a 1U simpler dual VCA without pan/fade
> should be released first? Discuss!
> 



__________________________________________________
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http://greetings.yahoo.com

Maybe I am missing the whole point here. If the connections were done right
couldn't a dual VCA function either as pan or fade.  Bear with me as I
frequently have stupid ideas.  Lets say you have a dual VCA. They are normal
in every way except since they are in the same module, in addition to the
two normal separate inputs, you have a common input to both  (still done
with two jacks, one normalled to the switch on the other).  In addition to
the two separate outputs, you have a mixed output.  So, to use it as fade,
you plug the two ins and the mixed out.  To use it as pan, you use the
common input and two outputs.  One CV inverter is required to make an equal
and opposite control voltage.  OR, maybe the CV attenuators for the control
voltage are reversing style.

I think the concept of having one module for VCA and fade pan functions is
right. Why run your signal through two separate VCA type devices for
envelope plus pan fade function.  Give us multiple CVs in (one for EG and
one for pane / fade) and let one module do it all. Of course, we are talking
2U wide here for all that.

Stooge Larry (still modular challenged)

----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Schreiber <synth1@...>
To: <motm@yahoogroups.com>; VCOVCAVCF <vcovcavcf@...>
Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 4:34 PM
Subject: Re: [motm] MOTM dual VCA???


The MOTM-130 is not dead. It's a dual VCA with Pan/Fade.

But, maybe a 1U simpler dual VCA without pan/fade should be released first?
Discuss!

Paul S.

----- Original Message -----
From: "VCOVCAVCF" <vcovcavcf@...>
To: <motm@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 4:27 PM
Subject: [motm] MOTM dual VCA???


> Wasn't there something mentioned before about a dual
> VCA module?  Whatever happened to that?  Did all of
> these forthcoming micromodules take precedence?
>
> thanx
> jeph
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
> http://greetings.yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>





Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

I currently have two 110s and could use more VCA's without a ringmod.
(Isn't the 110 on death row?)  I see the need for a simpler 1U VCA to
replace it, and a micro module VCA would be in big demand.  More VCAs ==
better.  But to be honest, I have a would MUCH rather see the 130 first
(even though I'm sure it's a layout NIGHTMARE).  I have a spot in my rack
for two of 'em!

And then there's the little bit about a psycho ring mod replacement (the
500?), I would rather see that too.

George

----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Schreiber <synth1@...>
Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 5:34 PM


> The MOTM-130 is not dead. It's a dual VCA with Pan/Fade.
>
> But, maybe a 1U simpler dual VCA without pan/fade should be released
first? Discuss!
>
> Paul S.

Whoops, make that four.  Where is my brain??  Must be Valentines Day
stress...

----- Original Message -----
From: George Kisslak <groovyshaman@...>


> I currently have two 110s...
<snip>

At 8:28 PM -0500 2002/02/14, George Kisslak wrote:
>And then there's the little bit about a psycho ring mod replacement (the
>500?), I would rather see that too.

Check out the News page on the new website. Lots of gossip about the 
500 series.

I vote for the 2U dual VCA/panner/fader, just like I did back in July of
last year.
John Loffink
jloffink@... 

-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Schreiber [mailto:synth1@...] 
Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 4:34 PM
To: motm@yahoogroups.com; VCOVCAVCF
Subject: Re: [motm] MOTM dual VCA???
 
The MOTM-130 is not dead. It's a dual VCA with Pan/Fade.

But, maybe a 1U simpler dual VCA without pan/fade should be released
first? Discuss!

Paul S.

> But, maybe a 1U simpler dual VCA without pan/fade should be released
> first? Discuss!

I would buy the simpler module sooner than I would the MOTM-130. I already
have Arrick's Q111 pan/fade module, and the MOTM-410 would make a really
nice mate for the simple dual VCA!

>> The MOTM-130 is not dead. It's a dual VCA with Pan/Fade.
>>
>> But, maybe a 1U simpler dual VCA without pan/fade should be released
>> first? Discuss!

I could care less :)  I think ST should market whatever gets the company
closer to releasing the VC Pulse Divider and SEM filter!!

Can either of these proposed VCA's pass DC??  At least one of them should
in order to cover what many consider a basic function.

Btw, yahoogroups has a useful polling feature for these kinds of questions.

>(Isn't the 110 on death row?)

That could give it real street credibility for hip-hop producers :)








--
My ISP has changed my address:
media@... is now media.nai@...
media@... is media.nai@...
Please make a note of it, Thanks!! :)

for anyone willing to try their hand at some DIY, check out 
http://motm.retrosynth.com/markus_stuff for an inverter/rectifier module i 
designed.  it's not VC hence it's a very simple circuit to build, and i 
find it VERY useful.

feel free to email me privately for more info.

-mark


At 01:55 PM 2/14/02 -0700, you wrote:

>At 8:51 PM +0000 2002/02/14, mmarsh100 wrote:
> >This is not logic stuff, but Inverter/Clipper/Rectifier/Amplifier
> >functions would be very cool.
> >
> >Mike
>
>I've been using the Miniwave Socket Rocket to do voltage controlled
>clipping/rectification/overdrive. Can these not be done with the
>Oakley Wavefolder as well?
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/