MOTM

>
>>>4. No imagination. Just listen to the damn radio<<
>
>When you have a few song writers writing songs for most of todays groups,
>they're all going to sound the same.
>
A very good point, I think, and not an obvious one, until someone points 
it out.  What really annoys me is the routine over-application of 
levelling soft- or hardware to EVERY DAMN CD I'VE BOUGHT FOR THE LAST 2 
YEARS AT LEAST.  I mean "dynamic" does not necessarily mean everything 
at the same level, right?

-- 
Norman Fay

:: What really annoys me is the routine over-application of
:: levelling soft- or hardware to EVERY DAMN CD I'VE BOUGHT
:: FOR THE LAST 2 YEARS AT LEAST.  I mean "dynamic" does not
:: necessarily mean everything at the same level, right?

I do a LOT of music editing for many local and regional dance companies, so
I get to look at the waveform displays on a lot of CDs.  There are many that
still have a pretty good dynamic range - the "Cirque du Soleil" music for
example. Take something like Tori Amos though - sheesh! It's a solid
perfectly smooth thick black line! You're hard pressed to even see bass drum
or snare hits in the display without scanning back and forth through the
waveform to hear where it is....

Jezz....

--- In motm@yahoogroups.com, "Les Mizzell" <lesmizz@s...> wrote:
> 
> :: What really annoys me is the routine over-application of
> :: levelling soft- or hardware to EVERY DAMN CD I'VE BOUGHT
> :: FOR THE LAST 2 YEARS AT LEAST.  I mean "dynamic" does not
> :: necessarily mean everything at the same level, right?
> 
> I do a LOT of music editing for many local and regional dance 
companies, so
> I get to look at the waveform displays on a lot of CDs.  There are 
many that
> still have a pretty good dynamic range - the "Cirque du Soleil" 
music for
> example. Take something like Tori Amos though - sheesh! It's a solid
> perfectly smooth thick black line! You're hard pressed to even see 
bass drum
> or snare hits in the display without scanning back and forth 
through the
> waveform to hear where it is....
> 
> Jezz....


Maybe this is causing my aural fatigue.   I will put on a CD, and 
after a bit, I will just stop it much to my relief.   Now, I am not 
talking any kind of grinding, head-splitting, noise puke.   It is any 
number of regular CD's.   It is weird, and the best way to describe 
it is "my ears get tired".  Does not happen on all CD's, does not 
happen with live music, does not happen with TV (lo-fi) music.   
There seems to be a level of subtle boringness I cannot clearly 
identify.   When I stop the CD it goes away, and I am glad stopped 
the music.

This did not happen with old analog vinyl records.   This could also 
be natural aging going on, however if that was the case all music 
would sound like this.   

Well for now, I am going with the smoothing theory.  I guess it is 
like removing all the bright colors from a painting, or the sparkly 
spices from food.   The end result is bland and dull.

Andy

You've nailed it right on the head-- long durations of highly clipped and compressed music is very taxing.  The worst part is that you can't just turn it down to eliminate the effect; it's still terribly taxing.  My understanding is that this isn't typically the fault or the band, but more often the record label ordering the mastering engineers to make it LOUDER becasuse LOUDER IS BETTER!!!!  <ahem>  This is a fairly recent trend, which is why your records don't hurt, and live shows don't have evil mastering engineers.

(And no, not all mastering engineers are evil.)

I've read that Rush's latest CD (whatsitcalled-- afterburn something or other?) falls prey to this unfortunate trend.  From my own collection, I've noticed that Madonna's "Music" is somewhat taxing.  I can't recall others off the top of my head.

When it comes to this nasty habit, I'd rather listen to grinding, head-splitting, noise puke, ala Merzbow or Aube... at least then I know what I'm getting into.  ;)

--PBr

-----Original Message-----
From: gooboworks [mailto:andy@...]
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 2:43 PM
To: motm@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [motm] Re: w

Maybe this is causing my aural fatigue.   I will put on a CD, and 
after a bit, I will just stop it much to my relief.   Now, I am not 
talking any kind of grinding, head-splitting, noise puke.   It is any 
number of regular CD's.   It is weird, and the best way to describe 
it is "my ears get tired".  Does not happen on all CD's, does not 
happen with live music, does not happen with TV (lo-fi) music.   
There seems to be a level of subtle boringness I cannot clearly 
identify.   When I stop the CD it goes away, and I am glad stopped 
the music.

This did not happen with old analog vinyl records.   This could also 
be natural aging going on, however if that was the case all music 
would sound like this.   

Well for now, I am going with the smoothing theory.  I guess it is 
like removing all the bright colors from a painting, or the sparkly 
spices from food.   The end result is bland and dull.

> Take something like Tori Amos though - sheesh!

Funny that you mention it - it's only her latest album, isn't it?
Great songs, but overall sound is quite disappointing.
Compressed, and obviously produced to make each song
sound like all the other ones.

JH. (big fan, must have 20+ Tori CDs / EPs)

Actually, It does come from most of the bands I've worked for. "That sounds 
great, but when we put it in the CD changer with X, Y and The Z, it's not as 
loud. We want it to be louder than X, Y and The Z. Can you do that?" I use a 
number of metering systems including a Dorrough Loudness Monitor and I try 
to keep the crest factor (peak to average ratio) at about 12 dB, it usually takes 
around 6 dB peak reduction to achieve this with the Waves L1 (or L2) limiter 
on top of some mild "riding" compression for moderately dynamic material. At 
more than 6 dB of peak reduction I hear the limiter, so I go with multiband 
compression to bring the level up from there. Anyway, I also get masters from 
all the major mastering houses - some of them have 0 crest factor! But, a good 
one can do it with a minimum of harshness. Harshness can also come from 
cumulative bit depth truncations...

B a r r y  S t r a m p - evil mastering engineer

--- In motm@yahoogroups.com, "Brousseau, Paul E (Paul)" <noise@A...> 
wrote:
> You've nailed it right on the head-- long durations of highly clipped and 
compressed music is very taxing.  The worst part is that you can't just turn it 
down to eliminate the effect; it's still terribly taxing.  My understanding is that 
this isn't typically the fault or the band, but more often the record label 
ordering the mastering engineers to make it LOUDER becasuse LOUDER IS 
BETTER!!!!  <ahem>  This is a fairly recent trend, which is why your records 
don't hurt, and live shows don't have evil mastering engineers.
> 
> (And no, not all mastering engineers are evil.)
> 
> I've read that Rush's latest CD (whatsitcalled-- afterburn something or 
other?) falls prey to this unfortunate trend.  From my own collection, I've 
noticed that Madonna's "Music" is somewhat taxing.  I can't recall others off 
the top of my head.
> 
> When it comes to this nasty habit, I'd rather listen to grinding, head-splitting, 
noise puke, ala Merzbow or Aube... at least then I know what I'm getting into.  
;)

> 
> --PBr
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gooboworks [mailto:andy@g...]
> Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 2:43 PM
> To: motm@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [motm] Re: w
> 
> Maybe this is causing my aural fatigue.   I will put on a CD, and 
> after a bit, I will just stop it much to my relief.   Now, I am not 
> talking any kind of grinding, head-splitting, noise puke.   It is any 
> number of regular CD's.   It is weird, and the best way to describe 
> it is "my ears get tired".  Does not happen on all CD's, does not 
> happen with live music, does not happen with TV (lo-fi) music.   
> There seems to be a level of subtle boringness I cannot clearly 
> identify.   When I stop the CD it goes away, and I am glad stopped 
> the music.
> 
> This did not happen with old analog vinyl records.   This could also 
> be natural aging going on, however if that was the case all music 
> would sound like this.   
> 
> Well for now, I am going with the smoothing theory.  I guess it is 
> like removing all the bright colors from a painting, or the sparkly 
> spices from food.   The end result is bland and dull.

More and more these days, Mastering engineers are forced screw up good  
originals so that it can be heard o n radio etc...   You can hear just  
about every recording pumping before you hear a note.   Weare currently  
victims of  golden ear instructions from the top..

Here is the test everybody.  Get out a Major  label CD and it vinyl  
brother.    You will listen to the vinyl  twice pops scratches and all   
before the CD and will even  physically feel better..

Fashion in technology like Psycho-cosmetology is  just plain wrong.

gw

On Thursday, June 26, 2003, at 05:42 PM, gooboworks wrote:

> --- In motm@yahoogroups.com, "Les Mizzell" <lesmizz@s...> wrote:
>>
>> :: What really annoys me is the routine over-application of
>> :: levelling soft- or hardware to EVERY DAMN CD I'VE BOUGHT
>> :: FOR THE LAST 2 YEARS AT LEAST.  I mean "dynamic" does not
>> :: necessarily mean everything at the same level, right?
>>
>> I do a LOT of music editing for many local and regional dance
> companies, so
>> I get to look at the waveform displays on a lot of CDs.  There are
> many that
>> still have a pretty good dynamic range - the "Cirque du Soleil"
> music for
>> example. Take something like Tori Amos though - sheesh! It's a solid
>> perfectly smooth thick black line! You're hard pressed to even see
> bass drum
>> or snare hits in the display without scanning back and forth
> through the
>> waveform to hear where it is....
>>
>> Jezz....
>
>
> Maybe this is causing my aural fatigue.   I will put on a CD, and
> after a bit, I will just stop it much to my relief.   Now, I am not
> talking any kind of grinding, head-splitting, noise puke.   It is any
> number of regular CD's.   It is weird, and the best way to describe
> it is "my ears get tired".  Does not happen on all CD's, does not
> happen with live music, does not happen with TV (lo-fi) music.
> There seems to be a level of subtle boringness I cannot clearly
> identify.   When I stop the CD it goes away, and I am glad stopped
> the music.
>
> This did not happen with old analog vinyl records.   This could also
> be natural aging going on, however if that was the case all music
> would sound like this.
>
> Well for now, I am going with the smoothing theory.  I guess it is
> like removing all the bright colors from a painting, or the sparkly
> spices from food.   The end result is bland and dull.
>
> Andy
>
>
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Gino Wong writes:
>>Here is the test everybody.  Get out a Major  label CD and it vinyl 
brother.   You will listen to the vinyl  twice pops scratches and all before 
the CD and will even  physically feel better..<<


And carrying Computer Music Journal over from another thread, according to CMJ, 
listening to CD's has some detrimental effects.  For example, in a test when 
listening to CD's people became weaker and couldn't lift as much weight as they 
could when listening to analog tape/vinyl recordings.  So CMJ not only was 
nearly useless, but also spreading falsehoods like this.

-Elhardt

:: For example, in a test when listening to CD's 
:: people became weaker and couldn't lift as much 
:: weight as they  could when listening to analog 
:: tape/vinyl recordings.



It's the Slim Whitman "Greatest Hits" CD will do that to you EVERY TIME!!!

Well, I'm certainly in the minority here [heh], but I think if 
anything CDs have led to the worst abuse of dynamics.  It is carried 
to an extreme, simply because it CAN be. Classical CDs, for example, 
are way, way more dynamic than classical LPs for obvious reasons--and 
it can be damn annoying!

Unlike frequency, amplitude doesn't carry any information, to speak 
of.

Harder to hear
Easier to hear
Harder to hear
Easier to hear

It's rather annoying.

Yea, I'm sounding like a broken record on this subject, but 
I'm "warm", a little scratchy, can take a lot of needling, and you'll 
want to play me again and again!

johnm
johnm

> It's rather annoying.

And this is coming from a Carlos fan? Hmm...

Jay