MOTM

Here is the BOM for the 6-channel MOTM-750 Interpolating Scanner:

http://www.synthtech.com/misc/m750.txt

Just a DOS text file (opens in Notepad/Wordpad, etc).

Even though this is a 3U wide module (if you don't know what it is, look at JH's pages on
oldcrows.net),

http://www.oldcrows.net/~jhaible/tonline_stuff/jh_ipscan.html

 this module has:

99 resistors
12 jacks
6 LEDs (yellow this time)
16 discrete transistors
8 matched pairs
25 caps
11 (!!) panel pots and 1 switch (not really 2 as the BOM says)
12 dual op amps
15 diodes

or about *230* individual parts.

Now, the though of soldering this beast I'm sure has several folks drooling already. However, on
my end, assuming I sell 50 kits (about average for a new model), that's about *12,000* total
parts to be bought, counted bagged and shipped.

There is 1 thing I can to to GREATLY speed up the process (and reduce errors!), and that it to
sequence all the axial parts (resistors, most caps, diodes) on tape. This is done by machine by
an outside contractor. The downside: it's more expensive, roughly 12 cents/part. So, that's
99+20+15 = 134 or $16 labor (plus cost of the parts, not much maybe $8).

The other thing is that I have a 100 "set minimum", or I have to run 100 sets. That's $1900 for
labor + parts.

So, I don't mind doing this, but here is what I'm thinking: asking for a $50 'deposit' via PayPal
or money order. This is to offset this cost. The module kit cost is not yet calculated, but it
WILL be over $300 but less than $500. So, as a %, the deposit is small. But it does greatly
assist my cash flow :)

The alternative: 100% SMT, no kits.

Paul S.

I'm one of those freaks who loves to solder. I wouldn't be happy with 
an SMT version. I don't mind paying a bit more to get all the parts 
on tape (saves me from having to check all the parts too). A Paypal 
deposit is fine with me for this and any future modules.

> The alternative: 100% SMT, no kits.

I all for this. Especially if it means I can get more modules, and make 
more sounds, sooner.

--mikes

Ditto.
Stooge Larry

----- Original Message -----
From: Scott Juskiw <scott@...>
I'm one of those freaks who loves to solder. I wouldn't be happy with an SMT
version. I don't mind paying a bit more to get all the parts on tape (saves
me from having to check all the parts too). A Paypal deposit is fine with me
for this <snip>

I'm in no problem with a deposit.

jan

Hi all-

The deposit thing is fine with me.
Sure, I'd still buy one if it only came in the SMT all assembled format,
though!  :-)

Frank Vanaman

-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Schreiber [mailto:synth1@...]
Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2003 4:34 PM
To: MOTM listserv
Subject: [motm] Mega-kits?

So, I don't mind doing this, but here is what I'm thinking: asking for a $50
'deposit' ...

The alternative: 100% SMT, no kits.

In a message dated 9/11/03 3:21:02 PM Central Daylight Time, 
synth1@... writes:

> So, I don't mind doing this, but here is what I'm thinking: asking for a 
$50 '
> deposit' via PayPal
>  or money order. 


 I'm all for the parts on tape thing. Can I send my deposit now? :-)

 Andrew

--- In motm@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Schreiber" <synth1@a...> wrote:

> 
> So, I don't mind doing this, but here is what I'm thinking: asking 
for a $50 'deposit' via PayPal
> or money order. This is to offset this cost. The module kit cost is 
not yet calculated, but it
> WILL be over $300 but less than $500. So, as a %, the deposit is 
small. But it does greatly
> assist my cash flow :)

I am in.   I would pay the $50 deposit.   The parts on the tape is 
cool.   I do like building, but I will take it as SMT also.

Andy

My idea of the perfect Saturday is one spent in my studio putting 
together a MOTM kit and listening to classic synth music.
So whatever it takes to make this a kit, rather than SMT, is OK by me.
Count me in!
(I will miss straining my eyes trying to read the numbers on those 
tiny axial caps under the magnifying glass!)




--- In motm@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Schreiber" <synth1@a...> wrote:
> Here is the BOM for the 6-channel MOTM-750 Interpolating Scanner:
> 
> http://www.synthtech.com/misc/m750.txt
> 
> Just a DOS text file (opens in Notepad/Wordpad, etc).
> 
> Even though this is a 3U wide module (if you don't know what it is, 
look at JH's pages on
> oldcrows.net),
> 
> http://www.oldcrows.net/~jhaible/tonline_stuff/jh_ipscan.html
> 
>  this module has:
> 
> 99 resistors
> 12 jacks
> 6 LEDs (yellow this time)
> 16 discrete transistors
> 8 matched pairs
> 25 caps
> 11 (!!) panel pots and 1 switch (not really 2 as the BOM says)
> 12 dual op amps
> 15 diodes
> 
> or about *230* individual parts.
> 
> Now, the though of soldering this beast I'm sure has several folks 
drooling already. However, on
> my end, assuming I sell 50 kits (about average for a new model), 
that's about *12,000* total
> parts to be bought, counted bagged and shipped.
> 
> There is 1 thing I can to to GREATLY speed up the process (and 
reduce errors!), and that it to
> sequence all the axial parts (resistors, most caps, diodes) on 
tape. This is done by machine by
> an outside contractor. The downside: it's more expensive, roughly 
12 cents/part. So, that's
> 99+20+15 = 134 or $16 labor (plus cost of the parts, not much maybe 
$8).
> 
> The other thing is that I have a 100 "set minimum", or I have to 
run 100 sets. That's $1900 for
> labor + parts.
> 
> So, I don't mind doing this, but here is what I'm thinking: asking 
for a $50 'deposit' via PayPal
> or money order. This is to offset this cost. The module kit cost is 
not yet calculated, but it
> WILL be over $300 but less than $500. So, as a %, the deposit is 
small. But it does greatly

> assist my cash flow :)
> 
> The alternative: 100% SMT, no kits.
> 
> Paul S.

Bring it on! I say,
  I just finished the Patchell Vocal Filter this morning at around 
2:30am.  With 159 100k resistors,  106 .1uf caps,  a mess of 
other parts, and  not to mention 57 pots (half of which I wired 
backwards and need to fix). After that one I am feeling like I can 
take on just about any Mega Kit!  OK, I will get off my high horse.

I would be happy to make a deposit via PayPal... 

Howard



--- In motm@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Schreiber" <synth1@a...> 
wrote:
> Here is the BOM for the 6-channel MOTM-750 Interpolating 
Scanner:
> 
> http://www.synthtech.com/misc/m750.txt
> 
> Just a DOS text file (opens in Notepad/Wordpad, etc).
> 
> Even though this is a 3U wide module (if you don't know what it 
is, look at JH's pages on
> oldcrows.net),
> 
> http://www.oldcrows.net/~jhaible/tonline_stuff/jh_ipscan.html
> 
>  this module has:
> 
> 99 resistors
> 12 jacks
> 6 LEDs (yellow this time)
> 16 discrete transistors
> 8 matched pairs
> 25 caps
> 11 (!!) panel pots and 1 switch (not really 2 as the BOM says)
> 12 dual op amps
> 15 diodes
> 
> or about *230* individual parts.
> 
> Now, the though of soldering this beast I'm sure has several 
folks drooling already. However, on
> my end, assuming I sell 50 kits (about average for a new 
model), that's about *12,000* total
> parts to be bought, counted bagged and shipped.
> 
> There is 1 thing I can to to GREATLY speed up the process 
(and reduce errors!), and that it to
> sequence all the axial parts (resistors, most caps, diodes) on 
tape. This is done by machine by
> an outside contractor. The downside: it's more expensive, 
roughly 12 cents/part. So, that's
> 99+20+15 = 134 or $16 labor (plus cost of the parts, not much 
maybe $8).
> 
> The other thing is that I have a 100 "set minimum", or I have to 
run 100 sets. That's $1900 for
> labor + parts.
> 
> So, I don't mind doing this, but here is what I'm thinking: asking 
for a $50 'deposit' via PayPal
> or money order. This is to offset this cost. The module kit cost 
is not yet calculated, but it
> WILL be over $300 but less than $500. So, as a %, the deposit 
is small. But it does greatly

> assist my cash flow :)
> 
> The alternative: 100% SMT, no kits.
> 
> Paul S.

I'd send a deposit if you go the pre taped route. Though, I wouldn't mind if 
you went to SMT boards if that made it easier (for you), or cheaper and faster 
delivery for us.

I remember a time when you asked about pre-stuffed PCBs -- I wouldn't mind 
pre-assembled boards if that would help you in the production side of it.

JB

In a message dated 9/11/2003 1:21:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
synth1@... writes:
There is 1 thing I can to to GREATLY speed up the process (and reduce 
errors!), and that it to
sequence all the axial parts (resistors, most caps, diodes) on tape. This is 
done by machine by
an outside contractor. The downside: it's more expensive, roughly 12 
cents/part. So, that's
99+20+15 = 134 or $16 labor (plus cost of the parts, not much maybe $8).

The other thing is that I have a 100 "set minimum", or I have to run 100 
sets. That's $1900 for
labor + parts.

So, I don't mind doing this, but here is what I'm thinking: asking for a $50 
'deposit' via PayPal
or money order. This is to offset this cost. The module kit cost is not yet 
calculated, but it
WILL be over $300 but less than $500. So, as a %, the deposit is small. But 
it does greatly
assist my cash flow :)

The alternative: 100% SMT, no kits.

More U -> more fun.
More parts -> more fun.
More soldering -> more fun.
All parts scattered in one bag -> more fun.
But if sequencing them on tape helps you -> go for it.
You want a deposit -> you got it.
(Yep, I got a job -> heh heh)

MOTM750 -> will kick a@@.
George -> drooling.

Er....

What is "SMT?"


johnm

> What is "SMT?"
> 

SMT = surface mount technology. Resistors and capacitors are reduced 
to the size of a gnat's ass, and have no legs. The board has no 
holes, just tiny pads that the exposed ends of the parts solder to. 
ICs have leads that are thousandths of an inch apart instead of 
hundredths.

It's very high density packaging, designed for modern production 
electronics. The parts are basically too small to be handled by hand, 
and must be placed and soldered by precision robotic machines.

Aside from possible audio emasculation from shrunken down circuit 
paths, many people on this list love the act of assembly, and are 
opposed to SMT on general principles for that reason. You will never 
be able to easily repair a module years down the road if it is SMT.

OTOH, Paul will have increasing difficulty as time goes on in 
sourcing parts for traditional through-hole design. Many of these 
parts are disappearing, and can only be purchased as SMT.

So we kit builders and module hot rodders need to enjoy it for as 
long as we can.

Moe

>I'd send a deposit if you go the pre taped route. Though, I 
>wouldn't mind if you went to SMT boards if that made it easier (for 
>you), or cheaper and faster delivery for us.
>
>I remember a time when you asked about pre-stuffed PCBs -- I 
>wouldn't mind pre-assembled boards if that would help you in the 
>production side of it.

I agree with anything that saves Paul's time.  If he wanted a 
deposit, or even all the money upfront, that would be fine with me 
too.

If he offered kits with pre-assembled SMT PCBs and where we still had 
to build the front panel, then that would be fine with me as long as 
the schematics and theory of operation were included.  I would prefer 
that to having new modules only available as assembled (like the 
Cloud Generator).  Also, considering the price and availability of 
through-hole vs. surface mount parts, SMT might allow for a better 
design.

Otoh, Moe might have a point about "possible audio emasculation from 
shrunken down circuit paths".  On yet another hand, audio IC's with 
insides much more miniature than SMT sound perfectly fine.  There are 
also possible noise advantages using SMT due to reduced lead 
inductance and trace resistance.

Isn't debate fun? ^_^

> It's very high density packaging, designed for modern production
> electronics. The parts are basically too small to be handled by hand,
> and must be placed and soldered by precision robotic machines.

SMT is considerably cheaper in higher volumes as well. The parts 
themselves tend to be cheaper, and the final assembly is much, much 
cheap. A robot places all the parts on top of tiny little bits of 
solder paste and it goes into an oven, 15 minutes later, presto! 
finished board. Contrast that with spending an hour of human time 
(+cost of feeding/clothing human, etc) and it's not hard to see why 
modern electronics use surface mount components.

> Aside from possible audio emasculation from shrunken down circuit
> paths,

Only if the circuit is designed poorly. Same goes for through-hole.

> many people on this list love the act of assembly, and are
> opposed to SMT on general principles for that reason. You will never
> be able to easily repair a module years down the road if it is SMT.

Actually, I disagree. At the current pace of technology, many years 
from now I may find it difficult to find through hole components to 
replace certain dead ones on my boards. Quick, who has easy access to a 
68000? Or a core memory winding? Or any sort of vacuum tube?

I agree, soldering a gnats ass to a pad is kinda annoying, but not 
impossible.  You need the right tools, and they're kind of expensive 
right now. You don't know soldering until you've soldered SMT!  Where's 
you sense of adventure! ^_^

That being said, there's still lots to solder on MOTM kits that can't 
be done by machine. I personally enjoy soldering but for me the reason 
I buy MOTM modules was to make music, and I find the current turn 
around times to be rather limiting. It's also hard to convince newbies 
to pony up for a system when it will take over a month for it to 
arrive, unassembled. That's a really hard sell, and limits the MOTM's 
appeal to the truly hard core (of pocket book, patience, or technical 
ability.) How long can Paul keep going appealing to such a limited 
group? I don't know.

I hope forever, the MOTM rules.

--mikes

On Fri, 12 Sep 2003, Mike Estee wrote:

> I agree, soldering a gnats ass to a pad is kinda annoying, but not 
> impossible.  You need the right tools, and they're kind of expensive 
> right now. You don't know soldering until you've soldered SMT!  Where's 
> you sense of adventure! ^_^

  Reflow soldering of SMT parts is really not that hard.  The trick is to 
use solder paste and a toaster oven (really!).  The only really tedious 
part is using a toothpick to apply the paste to each solder pad, then 
using tweezers to place the parts.  I've done this even with 0.5mm 
pin-pitch microcontrollers, and they turn out fine.

  On critical designs, I'll ante up and have a paste stencil made--then 
you just lay the stencil over the PCB and trowel a thin layer of paste 
over the stencil such that all the pads are done in about 10 seconds.

  Anyway, just heat a toaster oven to 420F, put the prepared board in and 
watch till the solder melts under the pins of the largest IC.  Then remove 
the board and set it on a cooling rack (takes about 3 minutes in my 
toaster oven desigated for flow soldering).  After it cools, solder on any 
through-hole parts and its ready.

  I've seen the paste dispenser and picker-placer robots at work on boards 
at a factory I hire from time to time.  Those are awesome. ;)

Crow
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