MOTM

I'm not sure I fully understand the thrust of this conversation. Is it
solely about MOTM 5U not being available in *kit* form? Or about being
available in the so-called 'MOTM format' at *all*? 

 

Personally, I don't care all that much about the "kit" aspect - I had a lot
of fun building my many MOTM kits, sure. And I probably saved a few bucks
building them myself. But I personally have been deeply upset about the lack
of 5U availability in general. I don't much care about whether or not they
are kits or surface-mount pre-built modules. (The only aspect of MOTM not
being available as kits that bothers me is the fact that you would think
mass-produced SMT modules would be cheaper than hand-soldered pre-built
ones, not twice as expensive.)

 

Ten-plus  years ago I was one of the people crying for more "weird" modules.
We started to get tantalizing hints about things that eventually became the
Cloud Generator, Morphing Terrarium, etc. Then they finally came out in a
non-5U format and after all this time have not made it into "MOTM format."

 

When I think of the THOUSANDS of dollars/hours I spent adapting modules of
other formats (Euro/Frac/DotCOM) into MOTM format, buying custom panels,
etc., it really burns me up that now I would have to do the same thing with
a $400 MOTM-branded module. I'm just not going to do it.

 

So, yeah, you can count me - one of the early customers that put a LOT of
time into MOTM and waving the banner very high - as part of the seething,
angry mob outside the window over MOTM moving to Euro format.

 

I'm grateful that Bridechamber is carrying the torch for the format, and
it's cool that even Blacet Research has offered the occasional MOTM-format
module over the years. Cyndustries, Encore, and ModCan, too. But it just
makes it all the more galling that Synth Tech itself has apparently
abandoned it, after establishing it as the benchmark for a 21st century
synthesizer module.

 

Just my $0.02.

 

--Ken

From: motm@yahoogroups.com [mailto:motm@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Greg
James
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 10:12 AM
To: gjames@...; 'Paul Schreiber'; motm@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [motm] 5xx series in a MOTM format

 

  

Apologies to John - I didn't see his response until just now. Yeah - what he
said J

-Greg

 

  _____  

From: Greg James [mailto:gjames@...] 
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 10:07 AM
To: gjames@...; 'Paul Schreiber'; motm@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [motm] 5xx series in a MOTM format

 

Any answer to my question below? If the module is compelling enough, I have
no problem with $400. I just don't believe there's enough demand at $400 to
reach 100 units. And then we're back to not seeing anything at any price.

 

Also, what happened to the notion of a little production design, like
designing the PCBs for *multiple* formats. Main module PCBs with a
standardized connector for a format-specific daughterboard (yeah, a few
bucks more, but they could be standardized and end up cheap)?

 

If that's too ambitious then just add power connectors and whatever other
pads are needed for MOTM to the opposite end of the monolithic PCB. Have the
MOTM power connector soldered on along with the Euro hardware. Just make a
run where you save $2.55 + the cost of pots and jacks by not having them do
those operations. This is standard production stuff and doesn't really cost
to have them do.

 

Worst case when we retro-fit a Euro module to MOTM, we cut off the Euro
pots, jacks, etc. and solder wires the old fashioned way to the proper pads.
Bridechamber still gets to sell us MOTM panels and parts.

 

-Greg

 

  _____  

From: motm@yahoogroups.com [mailto:motm@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Greg
James
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 10:09 PM
To: 'Paul Schreiber'; motm@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [motm] 5xx series in a MOTM format

 






A 50 unit minimum looks to me like an awfully high bar to reach. Especially
at $400 per. And the rest of the criteria isn't clear to me. Are you saying
you need 50 MOTM AND 50 MU (going by the $40,000 figure you throw out)
before we've got a run? Regardless, I don't see how this is going to happen.
Echoing Thomas' sentiment, my MOTM 'investment' has not been pretty.

 

Greg James

 

  _____  

From: motm@yahoogroups.com [mailto:motm@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul
Schreiber
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 8:49 PM
To: motm@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [motm] 5xx series in a MOTM format

 

 

This is sort of a 2-part MOTM issue

 

MOTM as DIY-based

 

Certainly since the first module the kits out-sold the assembled like 25:1.
In some modules probably 75:1. Things went OK until the RoHS directive
killed both the Switchcraft jacks and the Spectrol pots at once. It took
nearly 2 years to get those parts back and running, only to have Vishay
(that made the RoHS version) drive the price from $1.80 to $7.50. This
clogged the pipeline, blew up the backlog and it was not until BI came out
with the P260 family that I could finally get going. This is just on the
"business" side of things. 

 

So, I decided to have Scott at BrideChamber take over and I think he has
done a great job. The parts, kits, panels and pc boards are still there.

 

But what is missing? New offerings specifically for DIYers. (and some MOTM
kits I need to ship out, more on that later).

 

I have not decided yet if the ROI (return on investment) is worth it for
doing more DIY-specific MOTM modules. Right now I am thinking not.

 

MOTM as Assembled

 

The current MOTM modules were not engineered to be 'quick' to assemble, in
fact (and you know who you are) some folks think the longer it takes/the
more parts the better the overall fun factor. Which is exactly what DIYers
want but not exactly great for one-at-a-time assembly. It's not that the ROI
isn't good (it is) but the time required is a problem.

 

MOTM as a 'Hobby'

 

It started as a hobby and I want it to remain a hobby. I do NOT want to do
this 100% as my 'living'. But since Jan. it has been (and hopefully next
month will revert back to full hobby status). I have focused on Euro because
that is how I have to support my family. I have NOT ignored MOTM entirely
but yes Euro has "stolen" the bulk of time because it is necessary to do so.
I do not like doing this, it is not fair to 5U customers but it is just what
has to be done now.

 

I have interviewed twice recently and feel at least 1 of them will result in
full time, with health insurance benefits, employment. This will allow me to
then go back to 5U more and more. Note that I may have to physically move
(again) so there will be 3-4 weeks where not much will go on. May people
take holiday/vacation in August so it's a good time to move anyway. I will
not know for sure until next week. But I am optimistic.

 

Will there ever be new 5U stuff?

 

Yes, but as assembled. And I will start with going to Kickstarter
(www.kickstarter.com) in order to judge the demand. In this way, no money
exchanges hands until a goal is reached (in dollars, but that is just a
minimum number of modules). SMT tooling is expensive, like $900. Each pc
board run is $250 setup on the machines. The prices will be "high" (say in
the $400 range) initially. But with SMT assembly, I can go from the boards
in front of me to a finished, calibrated module in about 9 minutes. The
years of waiting are over, I can build 50 modules a week in my spare time.

 

I think offering a 50 module minimum run is fair and the way Kickstarter is
set up I can ship more than 50 but not LESS than 50. So if for example I
offer a 5U and a MU Cloud Generator both at $400 with 50 of each and there
is a dollar pledge over $40,000 then I would just make more and everyone
that pledged gets a module. I think this is fair, I do not even have to buy
parts until the goal is met, unlike the current way where I have to HOPE
there is a demand. I could split it and say "as long as I get 80 modules of
a mix of MU/5U we have a go".

 

BUT..I will NOT do this until EVERY current MOTM user has their modules from
me. I might tinker on the CAD system beforehand but nothing 'official' until
then.

 

And when will this be?

 

The honest answer: I have no idea. Will it be in 2012? Yes it will but not
going to say 'by Oct 1' or whatever. Because I never hit the dates anyway.
So instead of a watch or calendar I'm looking at the leaves of tress J A LOT
may happen in the next 6 weeks. I may not get a job offer and then the 5U
time is what it is now.

 

If people think MOTM is 'dead' or in a 'death spiral' or they feel
'abandoned' they certainly have the data to point to that. And it's 100% on
me. But as Granny liked to say, "The proof is in the pudding". So, after I
get the MOTM backlog  shipped, and I post the modules to KickStarter (there
will be 3 of them) then the user base will decide MOTM's fate. 

 

Paul S.

Ten-plus  years ago I was one of the people crying for more "weird" modules.
We started to get tantalizing hints about things that eventually became the
Cloud Generator, Morphing Terrarium, etc. Then they finally came out in a
non-5U format and after all this time have not made it into "MOTM format."

 

Because in Euro, I have a customer base that is 100X larger than 5U. Yes,
100 TIMES larger. And there is no DIY issues and SMT is not "frowned upon"
nor is "digital". So, the risk was VERY low and due to the distribution
model, I had POs in hand for over 300 EACH of these before 1 was shipped.

 

When I think of the THOUSANDS of dollars/hours I spent adapting modules of
other formats (Euro/Frac/DotCOM) into MOTM format, buying custom panels,
etc., it really burns me up that now I would have to do the same thing with
a $400 MOTM-branded module. I'm just not going to do it.

 

I do not understand this at all. If I decide to do the Cloud Generator and
the MT in 5U/MU they would be $399 each. You don't have to do anything
except plug it in. I would put them on Kickstarter, and you pay NOTHING
until the project is funded. If there is not 50 people in each format that
are interested, that says it all right there. Cynthia sold over *200* MOTM
format ZOs assembled for $1000. That did not 'deter' anyone, did it? People
thought the function of the modules outweighed both PRICE and 'DIY-ness'. 

 

Paul S.

>>>.If I decide to do the Cloud Generator and the MT in 5U/MU they would be
$399 each. You don't have to do anything except plug it in. I would put them
on Kickstarter, and you pay NOTHING until the project is funded. If there is
not 50 people in each format that are interested, that says it all right
there. Cynthia sold over *200* MOTM format ZOs assembled for $1000. That did
not 'deter' anyone, did it? People thought the function of the modules
outweighed both PRICE and 'DIY-ness'. 

 

 
<http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=88644/grpspId=1705032277/msgId=3
3999/stime=1345303477/nc1=4025304/nc2=5028928/nc3=5898817> And I have a ZO.
A Saw Animator, too. I didn't care that they weren't kits, only that they
were MOTM format.

 

I wouldn't take a lack of interest on Kickstater as a sure sign of a lack of
interest in general. Personally, sites like that just aren't on my radar.

Maybe there isn't going to be anything new there, but we still like to look!
;-)

 

John

When I think of the THOUSANDS of dollars/hours I spent adapting modules of
other formats (Euro/Frac/DotCOM) into MOTM format, buying custom panels,
etc., it really burns me up that now I would have to do the same thing with
a $400 MOTM-branded module. I'm just not going to do it.

 

Could you enlighten us as to what modules you converted over from these
other formats to MOTM? This is news to me.

 

-Greg

 

  _____  

From: motm@yahoogroups.com [mailto:motm@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul
Schreiber
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 11:25 AM
To: 'MOTM'
Subject: RE: [motm] 5xx series in a MOTM format

 






Ten-plus  years ago I was one of the people crying for more "weird" modules.
We started to get tantalizing hints about things that eventually became the
Cloud Generator, Morphing Terrarium, etc. Then they finally came out in a
non-5U format and after all this time have not made it into "MOTM format."

 

Because in Euro, I have a customer base that is 100X larger than 5U. Yes,
100 TIMES larger. And there is no DIY issues and SMT is not "frowned upon"
nor is "digital". So, the risk was VERY low and due to the distribution
model, I had POs in hand for over 300 EACH of these before 1 was shipped.

 

When I think of the THOUSANDS of dollars/hours I spent adapting modules of
other formats (Euro/Frac/DotCOM) into MOTM format, buying custom panels,
etc., it really burns me up that now I would have to do the same thing with
a $400 MOTM-branded module. I'm just not going to do it.

 

I do not understand this at all. If I decide to do the Cloud Generator and
the MT in 5U/MU they would be $399 each. You don't have to do anything
except plug it in. I would put them on Kickstarter, and you pay NOTHING
until the project is funded. If there is not 50 people in each format that
are interested, that says it all right there. Cynthia sold over *200* MOTM
format ZOs assembled for $1000. That did not 'deter' anyone, did it? People
thought the function of the modules outweighed both PRICE and 'DIY-ness'. 

 

Paul S.

>>>Could you enlighten us as to what modules you converted over from these
other formats to MOTM? This is news to me.--Greg

 

Converting other modules to MOTM format was all the rage a decade ago. For
me it started with finding old Moog, Roland &c schematics on the web and
trying to build MOTM-style versions of them. This led to a long series of
emails between J. Larry Hendry and me about converting a couple of PAIA and
three Blacet Research modules in particular - the Klangwerk, Dark Star, and
the divider. Larry and I worked out a few little extras for these (a switch
here, an LED or extra output there), and worked out different ways of making
our own front panels. Sometime later, Larry & "The Stooges" turned this into
a cottage industry, and now of course you can get much better panels from
Bridechamber than we were making by spray-gluing paper to metal back in the
day. I used to have a tutorial of how to do this on my old website, but once
people started 'organizing' and having panels professionally silk-screened,
I dropped that method and of jumped on board with the better panels for
sure.

There are still lots of folks on this list who have fantastic stuff on their
websites showing how they expanded their MOTM systems way beyond the
official offerings. This is not a complete list and is in no particular
order, but if you're interested:

http://pugix.com/synth/category/modules/

http://www.hotrodmotm.com/

http://www.dragonflyalley.com/billAndWillMOTMSynth.htm

http://www.tellun.com/motm/darmok/darmok.html

But I am *hugely* disappointed that I cannot buy some of these cool new MOTM
modules that are coming out in other formats.

 

I don't know how to say this any other way: they are NOT MOTM modules. They
are Euro modules that I designed and built. They are no more MOTM modules
that the Frac modules I did, or the Euro re-panels for John Blacet. They are
just "other designs".

 

 

These are MOTM but I can't use them??  I can totally understand where Ken is
coming from.  I would never have expected it.

 

So, I'm supposed to ignore a market that is 100 TIMES bigger? Where I only
have to ship a few boxes 4-5 times a year? Really?

 

Every couple of years I have posted a long list of all of the interesting 5U
modules that have been discussed, debated, planned,  and prototyped on this
list over the years that were coming down the pike *soon*.  Some nearly made
it: the 450, the fader/VCA, the Cloud Gen.  I even preordered some (but was
cancelled).  Robert Rich got a few.  The list is massive.  It's was like
engineering with Attention Deficit Disorder.  The feature and UI debate of
new modules was one of the bright spots in the MOTM community that sold me
early on (I almost went with Blacet.)  It teased our interest and kept us
coming.  We even all felt like we lost a family member when Larry passed.
But I feel like it is over.  It is unfortunate.  However, I wouldn't say I'm
pissed about it.

 

I think we all miss the "old days". It has been difficult with 2 key players
now deceased and a third disabled. Then pile that on top with my personal
family/job struggles and yes: the last 5 years or so have been VERY
non-productive for everyone involved.

 

I have said many times over - if Paul offered any new modules in 5U, I would
snap up 2 in a heartbeat.

 

I appreciate that and now I need 24 more people to do the same J In the
first 2 months, please.

 

Seeing these cool new modules come out first in other formats is
frustrating, but I understand the economics.  However, if they are never
provided in 5U, well then I will be pretty upset.  I'm fine with
Bridechamber for stuff, but can I get a 5U Morphing Terrarium from him?
That's what I'm talking about.

 

You won't be getting new MOTM 5U from Bridechamber until at least the first
3 Kickstarters are successful. Why should Scott front the $8,000 up-front
cost needed if there is no demand? That's $8,000 PER new design. I don't
want to and neither does he. That is why Kickstarter is PERFECT: no money
exchanges hands until funded, anyone can find and buy it, and there is a
page active all the time showing everyone exactly the status (good or bad).
If it doesn't fund, no one is out 1 penny (none of this Ponzi deposit scheme
stuff). There is ZERO risk on BOTH sides. If you are not familiar with the
site, please go poke around. If you want to see an example of the "power" of
the site, just look here:

 

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/597507018/pebble-e-paper-watch-for-iphon
e-and-android?ref=search

 

Yes, you will see this 1 guy raised $10 MILLION dollars for a $89 watch. And
this is not even the biggest example!

 

And, BTW: when was the last time Roger at .com released a new module? Like
2005 maybe? Is he 'killing his format', too? REALLY??!?

 

Paul S.

Ken,

 

I wasn't referring to all of the DIY and MOTM-conforming folks (Stooges,
Oakley, Scott, yourself, etc.) who HAVE made and offered these conversions.
I was directing the question to Paul who made the claim that HE's spent
thousands doing the same. If he's referring to what's officially available
in MOTM format, then I don't have sympathy his outlay claims. If he's
converted Paia/Blacet or CGS or some other module to MOTM format like the
aforementioned folks, then I'd like to know how I missed that.

 

Official MOTM is ~44.3% of my panel space and 52.9% of my total module
count. OMS is in second place with 12% and 12.5% respectively. CGS is third
with 9.9% and 8.7%. And Cyndustries, Tellun, Blacet, Haible, Encore, and
various other DIY modules make up the remainder: 33.9% and 26%. Power
supplies are not mounted in front and therefore are not counted.

 

I have all three of your Paia/Blacet modules (actually 2 of each). I also
own Jeurgen's Living VCO prototype that's waiting for a front panel. So I am
well into the Non-Synthesis Technologies alternatives. Scott can also vouch
for my support of Bridechamber over the years. I've been negligent about
reviewing all the new Oakley stuff and that's something I will rectify over
the coming Winter. Tony makes some top notch stuff - to the point that I
wouldn't blush at all having a core OMS system at all. He and Krisp are like
the little engine that could. They keep cranking out new and improved
modules which Paul claims is not practical.

 

And lastly I have to one again commend Scott Deyo at Bridechamber who has,
in my opinion, done more to keep my MOTM system alive than anyone else. For
me he has become the custodian of the format. I owe him an order just
because.

 

-Greg

 

  _____  

From: motm@yahoogroups.com [mailto:motm@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ken
Tkacs
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 12:59 PM
To: 'MOTM'
Subject: FW: [motm] 5xx series in a MOTM format

 






 

>>>Could you enlighten us as to what modules you converted over from these
other formats to MOTM? This is news to me.--Greg

 

Converting other modules to MOTM format was all the rage a decade ago. For
me it started with finding old Moog, Roland &c schematics on the web and
trying to build MOTM-style versions of them. This led to a long series of
emails between J. Larry Hendry and me about converting a couple of PAIA and
three Blacet Research modules in particular - the Klangwerk, Dark Star, and
the divider. Larry and I worked out a few little extras for these (a switch
here, an LED or extra output there), and worked out different ways of making
our own front panels. Sometime later, Larry & "The Stooges" turned this into
a cottage industry, and now of course you can get much better panels from
Bridechamber than we were making by spray-gluing paper to metal back in the
day. I used to have a tutorial of how to do this on my old website, but once
people started 'organizing' and having panels professionally silk-screened,
I dropped that method and of jumped on board with the better panels for
sure.

There are still lots of folks on this list who have fantastic stuff on their
websites showing how they expanded their MOTM systems way beyond the
official offerings. This is not a complete list and is in no particular
order, but if you're interested:

http://pugix.com/synth/category/modules/

http://www.hotrodmotm.com/

http://www.dragonflyalley.com/billAndWillMOTMSynth.htm

http://www.tellun.com/motm/darmok/darmok.html

I appreciate that and now I need 24 more people to do the same :-) In the
first 2 months, please.

 

So put up, or. Post a link to your Kickstarts and let the chips fall where
they may. I'm willing to bet that even if you get 100 orders we won't see
product for 6 months. The 100 unit threshold is a red herring that you know
will never be met. It's just an excuse for you to claim there's not enough
demand for your new business model. Why don't you just man up to it and tell
everyone you're out of the MOTM business.

 

Yes, you will see this 1 guy raised $10 MILLION dollars for a $89 watch. And
this is not even the biggest example!

 

If you are comparing us to that, then you're in the wrong hobby.

 

And, BTW: when was the last time Roger at .com released a new module? Like
2005 maybe? Is he 'killing his format', too? REALLY??!?

 

Roger ships product, you don't. And how is it that he's got a thriving
third-party market going like STG and Moon Modular? Some of their stuff
looks really interesting. I may have some MU in my future. The .com
ecosystem is a lot more compelling than MOTM right now. Bad example to use.

 

  _____  

From: motm@yahoogroups.com [mailto:motm@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul
Schreiber
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 2:05 PM
To: 'MOTM'
Subject: RE: [motm] 5xx series in a MOTM format

 






But I am *hugely* disappointed that I cannot buy some of these cool new MOTM
modules that are coming out in other formats.

 

I don't know how to say this any other way: they are NOT MOTM modules. They
are Euro modules that I designed and built. They are no more MOTM modules
that the Frac modules I did, or the Euro re-panels for John Blacet. They are
just "other designs".

 

 

These are MOTM but I can't use them??  I can totally understand where Ken is
coming from.  I would never have expected it.

 

So, I'm supposed to ignore a market that is 100 TIMES bigger? Where I only
have to ship a few boxes 4-5 times a year? Really?

 

Every couple of years I have posted a long list of all of the interesting 5U
modules that have been discussed, debated, planned,  and prototyped on this
list over the years that were coming down the pike *soon*.  Some nearly made
it: the 450, the fader/VCA, the Cloud Gen.  I even preordered some (but was
cancelled).  Robert Rich got a few.  The list is massive.  It's was like
engineering with Attention Deficit Disorder.  The feature and UI debate of
new modules was one of the bright spots in the MOTM community that sold me
early on (I almost went with Blacet.)  It teased our interest and kept us
coming.  We even all felt like we lost a family member when Larry passed.
But I feel like it is over.  It is unfortunate.  However, I wouldn't say I'm
pissed about it.

 

I think we all miss the "old days". It has been difficult with 2 key players
now deceased and a third disabled. Then pile that on top with my personal
family/job struggles and yes: the last 5 years or so have been VERY
non-productive for everyone involved.

 

I have said many times over - if Paul offered any new modules in 5U, I would
snap up 2 in a heartbeat.

 

I appreciate that and now I need 24 more people to do the same :-) In the
first 2 months, please.

 

Seeing these cool new modules come out first in other formats is
frustrating, but I understand the economics.  However, if they are never
provided in 5U, well then I will be pretty upset.  I'm fine with
Bridechamber for stuff, but can I get a 5U Morphing Terrarium from him?
That's what I'm talking about.

 

You won't be getting new MOTM 5U from Bridechamber until at least the first
3 Kickstarters are successful. Why should Scott front the $8,000 up-front
cost needed if there is no demand? That's $8,000 PER new design. I don't
want to and neither does he. That is why Kickstarter is PERFECT: no money
exchanges hands until funded, anyone can find and buy it, and there is a
page active all the time showing everyone exactly the status (good or bad).
If it doesn't fund, no one is out 1 penny (none of this Ponzi deposit scheme
stuff). There is ZERO risk on BOTH sides. If you are not familiar with the
site, please go poke around. If you want to see an example of the "power" of
the site, just look here:

 

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/597507018/pebble-e-paper-watch-for-iphon
e-and-android?ref=search

 

Yes, you will see this 1 guy raised $10 MILLION dollars for a $89 watch. And
this is not even the biggest example!

 

And, BTW: when was the last time Roger at .com released a new module? Like
2005 maybe? Is he 'killing his format', too? REALLY??!?

 

Paul S.

>> And, BTW: when was the last time Roger at .com released a new module?
Like 2005 maybe? 

 

I think it was last year? Or 2010?? He came out with the two quantizer
modules.

 

John

>>>You won't be getting new MOTM 5U from Bridechamber until at least the
first 3 Kickstarters are successful. 

Does this mean they ARE on Kickstart? Because I searched and found nothing.

Why not let Scott make the decision? If he wants to float the project out on Muff's - like many others due to gauge interest - so be it. At this point, we all are comfortable with Scott and his penchant for timely delivery. Let Scott be the face of 5U MOTM - just like UK Paul is the face of 5U Oakley.


________________________________
 
Seeing these cool new modules come out first in other formats is frustrating, but I understand the economics.  However, if they are never provided in 5U, well then I will be pretty upset.  I'm fine with Bridechamber for stuff, but can I get a 5U Morphing Terrarium from him?  That's what I'm talking about.
 
You won’t be getting new MOTM 5U from Bridechamber until at least the first 3 Kickstarters are successful. Why should Scott front the $8,000 up-front cost needed if there is no demand? That’s $8,000 PER new design. I don’t want to and neither does he.