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Re: [motm] Module Idea -- Harmonic Bias Source

Re: [motm] Module Idea -- Harmonic Bias Source

2000-04-13 by J. Larry Hendry

----------
> From: Tkacs, Ken <ken.tkacs@...>
> To: 'MOTM Forum All' <MOTM@egroups.com>
> Subject: [motm] Module Idea -- Harmonic Bias Source 
> Date: Thursday, April 13, 2000 3:43 PM
> 
> 
> Please bear with me on a long ramble (or you can just delete this Email
now,
> Mr. Phelps---it's always your choice).
> 
> I've been thinking about an idea for a module that I'd like to throw out
to
> the group for merciless comment. This discussion probably wont interest
95%
> of you, and wont even make _sense_ to anyone that does not understand the
> relationships of partials (harmonics) and how they mix to create a sound
in
> additive/'Fourier-fashion'... but if created, I think many people would
see
> the value in it once they heard it.
> 
> Anyway:
> 
> This idea sprang out of Mr. Hendry's recently posted concept for an
octave
> switch a week or so ago. To refresh your memories, his idea was something
> like this:
> 
> The MOTM VCO does not have an octave switch, so whenever you want to tune
> multiple VCOs to octaves-apart, it must be done carefully with the
> continuous pots. Now, if one wanted to add this feature, modifying the
VCO
> is a bad idea for several reasons. First of all, it ruins your warranty
<g>
> and collectibility, but also, having the VCO as it currently exists is
very
> often desirable. So you don't want to mess with it; a better solution is
to
> have an off-board module for the times when you need an octave switching
> function. By creating a bias voltage source with a rotary switch to
> switch-in trimmer resistors, and then feed this bias voltage into the
VCOs'
> FM inputs, you can make this happen. Just need some trim pots on the
> switching module to get the precise octave intervals on the VCOs.
> 
> Okay, that got me thinking.
> 
> Tuning VCOs to octaves is certainly something that is done often,
especially
> for that big fat analog sound. But what if you wanted to find *other*
useful
> intervals. What would these be? The Partial relationships between the
> fundamental tone (VCO #1, let's say) and "harmonic #n" (played by VCO
#2),
> etc.! Reinforcing harmonically-related partials is very cool. After all,
> that's why tuning to *octaves* is so cool---the octave is a strong
harmonic
> relationship. But it's not the *only* one. There are very sophisticated
> harmonic tunings possible. A musical 'twelfth,' for example, because the
> twelfth reinforces the octave+fifth which is the third Partial (second
> harmonic). [See, I knew this would bore those not 'into' musical acoustic
> physics. But therein lies the basis of all we do as synthesists,
consciously
> or not.]
> 
> AAAs some of you may have noticed from all my bitching about "partials"
on
> the list, > I'm really interested in working with the harmonic series in
> pseudo additive synthesis fashion. With a module like this, these very
> important relationships could be easily dialed in. So first you would
tune
> your VCOs to unison (for simplicity let's say there are only two VCOs)
with
> this Harmonic Biasing module set at the null position, #1. > At position
1,
> there is no bias, so VCO #2 > is at unison with VCO #1. Switching to
> position #2 would put VCO#2 up one > octave (the first harmonic). The
next
> position is octave-fifth (2nd > harmonic), then 2-octaves,
2-octaves-third,
> two-octaves-fifth.... etc, up to > as many harmonics as you have switch
> positions and trim pots for.
> 
> [Using terminology like "twelfth" and "two-octaves-fifth" is technically
> erroneous, but it gets the idea across. Due to compromises made in Equal
> Temperament, as you go up the harmonic series you start to drift from the
> "notes on the piano." This module should be tuned to the true partial
> relationships, not their Equal Tempered counterparts. The intervals need
to
> be f/2, f/3, f/4...&c.]
> 
> (Please hold your criticism until the end... I'm building this idea in
your
> minds one step at a time.)
> 
> > This ability to easily dial in exact partials on secondary VCOs, to me,
> would be awesome. Most people detune oscillators by octaves to > get that
> big fat "organ" sound, but the really cool way to tune VCOs is to >
> emphasize the real positions of other "natural" harmonics.
> > 
> (> In fact, there is a little known property of acoustic physics called >
> "sub-harmonics." I don't mean sub-octaves. But a sound can induce a
larger >
> object to resonate at frequencies LOWER than its fundamental by exciting
a >
> higher harmonic of the resonant properties of the second object. It is
very
> > subtle. Henry Cowell wrote about this in his book "New Musical
Resources"
> back in 1911. I think Walter Piston even addresses it in one of is famous
> books on harmony and/or orchestration. The first sub-harmonic of C is a
> lower F. The sounding board of a > piano actually adds these
sub-harmonics
> in VERY subtle amounts. It would be > neat to be able to play with these
> easily.
> > 
> > 
> > Now, to make this *more* of a nightmare project...
> > 
> > 
> > What if, instead of using rotary switches for selecting the offset
> relationship, you use pots with smooth, internal > electronic switching?
As
> you turned the pot, the voltage would jump the VCO's pitch in >
quantized,
> harmonic steps. The first benefit is that you don't need a 64 position >
> rotary to be able to get 64 harmonics on the dial, but the *BEST* reason
for
> > this is... <tah-dah!> *Voltage control!!* A CV could change the
quantized
> > biasing as well as the front panel control. What could you do with
this?
> You could have a CV, like an LFO, force a VCO to > sweep the harmonic
> series! This is an effect people try to get with Serge > waveshapers,
> high-resonance bandpass filters, etc. but you could have two > VCOs
tracking
> each other with the second one sweeping its frequency, but > always its
> pitch is a true "natural" harmonic of the first VCO! Or an *EG* could
sweep
> it---on a percussive envelope, the EG would push the second VCO up to
some
> higher harmonic of the first VCO, and then VCO #2 would fall to some
other,
> still harmonic relationship. This is similar to what happens in nature
with
> pitched percussive instruments, but can be just different enough to be
> really wild.
> > 
> This to me is a VERY exciting idea. With the second VCO producing a sine
> wave and the above effect being patched up, I can only imagine that it
would
> sound like the first VCO's signal was being split and the side-chain was
> going through an impossibly tight bandpass filter that only emphasized
one
> single harmonic at a time. Of course, no real bandpass filter could be so
> flexible and selective as to single out individual harmonics like this,
> especially relatively high in the harmonic series where they get very
tight.
> 
> And, of course, it need not be used just with VCOs. If instead of
producing
> a bias voltage for the VCO FM input it actually altered a 1V/OCT voltage
> passing through it, it could be used with the VCLFO, the filters,
anything
> that works in the pitch domain. How would a filter sound with a peaky
> resonance tracking the keyboard but also being swept with
> harmonically-related control voltages? I bet it would be very cool, and
at
> the same time subtle because you are dealing with the natural harmonic
> series, not just crude 'organ stop' relationships. The difference would
be
> the difference between equal temperament and just intonation, which is
> simultaneously subtle and yet very dramatic!
> 
> (Wendy Carlos comments on "Secrets of Synthesis" that analog tends to
> deteriorate "into that quasi-organ sound that most synthesizer work
> eventually degenerates into." That's because most people tune square
waves
> to simple octaves and fifths to build a sound, which does start to sound
the
> same after a while. This need not be the case, and this module works
> *against* that organ-ish tendency.)
> > 
> > I can imagine a 2u module. The four pots on the left side set the
harmonic
> > offsets for four VCOs. The four pots on the right are attenuators for
the
> incoming CVs to modulate them. Four > jacks are CV ins, and 4 are the
biased
> outs.
> > > 
> Okay, next.
> 
> The weak link is the bank of trim pots, one per harmonic relationship.
Now,
> I know NOTHING about > PIC processors, but I'm told they are cheap and
> really useful. I'm wondering > if the DACs in these are good enough so
that
> the harmonic relationships > could be programmed into a PIC chip. That
way
> they can be exactly specified > and theoretically would not drift. And,
of
> course, no calibration would be needed---you could lose the 64 trim pots
per
> channel, a huge expense and pain in the ass. > > Several people on this
list
> are PIC gurus who may be able to answer this question. > 
> 
> As the above idea evolved, it resembled less of the original octave
switch
> and more of a really unique, specific kind of quantizer. Maybe this
function
> can work its way into any quantizer designs that might be on the drawing
> board out there. As a stand-alone module, it might be esoteric, but if
this
> could be a feature of another module, it would be more economical. It
would
> be neat if there was some kind of switch: in one position, it quantizes
in
> 1/12 volt steps, like you would *expect* a quantizer to, and in other
switch
> positions, an effect like the above could be implemented. Because really,
> what I'm describing is a quantizer for Just-Intoned tuning, if used that
> way, which is an important compliment to equal-tempered tuning. If the
> module were _uP_ based, I would think this would be a low-part
> implementation. Just a little extra programming and a switch. (Am I
> wrong...?)
> 
> I'm raving about this out loud because I'm not an engineer, and can't
> implement this nut-bag idea on my own, otherwise I would just build it
and
> demonstrate it. I understand acoustic physics a hell of a lot better than
I
> understand the nitty-gritty of the electronics. I just wanted to see if
> there was anyone out there who thinks this could be as cool as I do. Can
I
> get anyone to chant along with me...?
> 
> As you can tell, I don't use my modular just to do two-VCO leads over
guitar
> pads... I'm trying to use it to create worlds.... I have weird needs...
:) 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> Thanks for indulging this rave, folks. My vocal chords hurt now, and I
> wasn't even talking....
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> eLerts
> It's Easy. It's Fun. Best of All, it's Free!
> http://click.egroups.com/1/3080/3/_/529958/_/955659109/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
>

Re: [motm] Module Idea -- Harmonic Bias Source

2000-04-13 by elhardt@aol.com

ken.tkacs@... writes:

>>I'm really interested in working with the harmonic series in
 pseudo additive synthesis fashion. With a module like this, these very
 important relationships could be easily dialed in.<<

Not that I want to steer business away from MOTM for this, but it sounds like 
you need the Nord Modular.  They even have a Sinewave oscillator bank just 
for doing additive synthesis.

Re: [motm] Module Idea -- Harmonic Bias Source

2000-04-14 by Paul & Alleyne

hello all,

one thing i do miss on my ever evolving MOTM is a rotary octave pot - i've
always get that urge to just wind the pot up and down halfway thu a track,
my Yamaha CS5 is great for this - you'll probably find that William Orbit
does this quite a lot.
anyway, Ken's idea sounds like an absolute winner, especially the voltage
control bit, when tax mayhem is over, maybe we can get the technical ball
rolling on this..? or kill it dead - whatever...

as a side line to this - i've been kind of wandering about an automatic
tuning source - as not being a keyboard player or guitar player, i find it a
real pain to powerup my VL1m and tuneup. anyone had any thoughts on a set of
precision voltage sources (using 0.1% resistors etc) to aid in this - or am
i barking up the wrong tree etc etc

must dash to work now...
cheers
paul b

Re: [motm] Module Idea -- Harmonic Bias Source

2000-04-14 by davevosh@aol.com

In a message dated 00-04-13 16:52:41 EDT, you write:

<< Can I
 get anyone to chant along with me...? >>


ken,
this seems like a useful idea to me. don`t know whether there would be enough 
interest to justify paul creating such a module, though. in my ongoing search 
for oddball modules to augment my machine, i`d have to give this one a 
serious look.
re : sub-harmonics - i haven`t heard one, only seen the literature but a 
swiss synth maker offers a subharmonic oscillator. they make it sound 
interesting but i`m not sure how they are implementing it.
best,
dave v.
p.s. - i love these "long rants" - they encourage thinking !!!! always a good 
thing and , to its credit, this list is often awash with good ideas being 
tossed about.

RE: [motm] Module Idea -- Harmonic Bias Source

2000-04-14 by Tkacs, Ken

They *should* hire here: I'm doing the work of three people! (Three
synthesizer enthusiasts, that is.)

Come to Connecticut; we'll set you up with a nice office and MOTM
synthesizer! :) 

I'm the senior in the IT department, so I get to delegate. I'm "master of my
own domain," if you'll forgive the pun (and the Seinfeld reference).

It's true that my correspondence with JLHendry is having an effect on me!!
Is there a self help center that I can call...?
Show quoted textHide quoted text
 -----Original Message-----
From: 	jwbarlow@... [mailto:jwbarlow@...] 
Sent:	Thursday, 13 April, 2000 8:08 PM
To:	motm@egroups.com
Subject:	Re: [motm] Module Idea -- Harmonic Bias Source 


In a message dated 4/13/2000 1:52:40 PM, ken.tkacs@... (who has clearly 
taken online typing courses from JLHendry -- and excelled!!!!) writes:


><blah blah blah>

><typing typing typing>

><yawn>

><yadda yadda yadda>



Ken, I've got a question for you! At your work? Are they hiring right now? 
I'm willing to move, and clearly there are some flexible break times!

Actually, there's lots of interesting stuff in there Ken, I won't to read it

fully and comment a bit if I have anything to say -- plus I've still got 
thoughts and questions about soundtracks and early EM.
JB

RE: [motm] Module Idea -- Harmonic Bias Source

2000-04-14 by Tkacs, Ken

Hey, I *like* that idea of the spectrum-analyzer-like display on an additive
module! Turn a knob and one partial's amplitude changes, and so does the
display. That would be a cool module, and _showy!_

I'm *willing* to buy a whole bunch of VCOs (not all at once of course...!)
to do what I need to do, but I still need something, like that quantizer, to
make tuning them harmonically a lot easier. Otherwise I'll spend my days in
front of the modular turning fine-tune knobs while staring at a frequency
counter instead of quickly dialing in the sounds I need.

That Stooges brew was big here last summer, but I haven't seen it in a
while. Gotta put in a request for it. I'm told that in Nevada you can get
cases of Romulan Ale.

Re: [motm] Module Idea -- Harmonic Bias Source

2000-04-14 by J. Larry Hendry

> From: jwbarlow@...
> 
> First: Larry I saw a reply from you regarding this, but didn't see any 
> additional content, did you mean to add something? Did I miss something?

My mind was blank.... LOL....

No actually, that was an errant transmission.
LH

Re: [motm] Module Idea -- Harmonic Bias Source

2000-04-14 by J. Larry Hendry

> From: jwbarlow@...
> >It's true that my correspondence with JLHendry is having an effect on
me!!
> >Is there a self help center that I can call...?
> 
> Try that Three Stooges Beer -- I've also been pasting in pages of text by
G. 
> W. F. Hegel and Jacques Derrida as well as articles about super string
theory 
> in my mail to Hendry to see if he's awake. Other than that I offer my
empathy.

Awake, but very sick.  Wishing I had some three stooges right now.

Stooge Larry

Re: [motm] Module Idea -- Harmonic Bias Source

2000-04-15 by davevosh@aol.com

In a message dated 00-04-14 11:43:27 EDT, you write:

<<  But I'm wondering if you've done any experiments 
 just using regular VCOs in an additive way - >>



john,
one possible problem with using regular vco`s to do this is that you have no 
control over the phases. doesn`t mean that its not worth trying / doing but 
may lack the effect that ken was talking about / looking for.  i`m sure that 
motm vco`s are stable enough in general for a bank of them to be useful. ( i 
would suspect that most modern vco design are also. the state of the art and 
component qualities have surely improved over the years since i bought my 
first "serious" modular  and even then the serge nto`s and pco`s were quite 
good )
best,
dave v.

Re: [motm] Module Idea -- Harmonic Bias Source

2000-04-15 by davevosh@aol.com

In a message dated 00-04-14 12:35:30 EDT, you write:

<< 
 I still think that some interesting work with gating FM with simple 
waveforms 
 and synching involving several VCOs could produce some worthwhile results in 
 this respect.
  >>



john,
just to toss in my 2 cents worth, i`d have to agree with you on this. should 
be some interesting sounds in a setup like that.
best,
dave v.

Re: [motm] Module Idea -- Harmonic Bias Source

2000-04-15 by Hugo Haesaert

Hi All !

There is indeed a problem with the phases of a bank of oscillators .  
Not with sines, but with harmonically richer waveforms, as they will 
go on beating against each other, the result will be phasing like 
sounds .  Not bad in and of itself maybe, but not the result hoped 
for, i gather .

In the past a subharmonic instrument has been developed :  the 
Trautonium .  This link gives a good intro :

http://www.doepfer.de/traut/traut_e.htm

Couple of remarks after a cursory read :  the Mixturtrautonium by 
Sala had two times two HF oscs, to be correct, the D module would 
have to have had an extra input on the 4th divider for the second osc,
giving the instrument also non-harmonic possibilities .  The second 
pair would be for the second manual .  I suspect there's more of the 
same ilk, but i want to get on with this post :)

There is a module with a spectrum like display for the partials, and 
they threw in a lot besides .  It's called the Kawai K5m, ca 1986, 
can be had for not too much, 4 individual outs, 4u etc ;-)

Oh yeah, it's fully digital, has only nudge buttons and one alpha 
dial, and stacks of menus, and it's a real b@sterd to program, but a 
computer editor is available ;^)

In this context the NM has something over a bank of "real" 
oscillators :  one can do proper additive on it, and have 18 knobs to 
tweak the partials, more if you spend the money for 4 PC1600x's :)

Bye for now .


Keep 'em oscillating :)


Hugo
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