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RE: [motm] Delay Module.. Digital bad?

2000-04-19 by Tkacs, Ken

Analog and digital delays are really two different animals. One of each
would be cool!

But there's a particular sound to an analog delay that's kind of neat, and
the way the two sound while being modulated can be very distinctive. If you
haven't spent years using each, it's hard to describe the different
experiences of using them.

I don't know if it's *still* true of DDLs, but when they first came out,
they could not modulate the delay line NEARLY as deeply as an analog; analog
delays gave much deeper flanging effects, etc.

Normally you want longer and longer delays, but ironically, several of us on
this list are actually hoping for SHORTER delays--accurate in a range less
than 4 ms, so that we can do physical modeling!

So it's not that analog is good, digital is bad, etc. The point is (as
usual) that they are both DIFFERENT, but it sure is a helluva lot easier to
pick up a digital delay these days than an analog one. So you will tend to
find more people begging for an ADL. Me included. I have digital delays out
the wazoo; now I'm looking for an appropriate analog delay module for my
analog synthesizer.

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 -----Original Message-----
From: 	revtor@... [mailto:revtor@...] 
Sent:	Wednesday, 19 April, 2000 4:40 PM
To:	motm@egroups.com
Subject:	[motm] Delay Module..  Digital bad? 

Ill second the wish for a delay module.
But I was wondering if it could be digital?  I mean analog is nice but with 
digital the delays can be longer with no signal degradation and maybe even 
potentially cheaper.  Maybe the digital delay cuts out some of the signal at

the low and high end?  Could these delays be used for CV's as well as audio?

Why is everyone so desiring an analog delay?  Anyway, as long as the delay 
time and wet/dry controls are voltage controllable any delay is fine with
me. 
 Plus Blacet and Moog already have analog delay boxes out, lets make a
better 
one... Loong delays with a hold option, VC as many params as possible, maybe

be able to sync the delay to a clock or something like that too..
I was actually considering mounting a Boss delay pedal onto a MOTM panel
with 
the MOTM knobs and stuff anyway...
Why is Digital Delay bad?
Why is analog Delay good?
food for threads..

RE: [motm] Delay Module.. Digital bad?

2000-04-19 by Brousseau, Paul E (Paul)

For starters, I don't think that digitial delay is not bad.  It has many
advantages, as you pointed out.  Although I think that digital delays would
actually *keep* more of the high and low end than the analog counterparts.

Analog delay is simply different.  I haven't expirienced it myself (or at
least, not knowingly), but my understanding is that you can get "better"
(subjective!) control with an analog delay.  In particular, sweeping delay
time produces a much "smoother" effect with analog.  Digital delays, I've
heard, produce stair-stepped delay times.  Analog delays run into trouble
with high frequencies due to aliasing, but I'd wager that analog aliasing
sounds different ("better"?) than digital aliasing.

Again, this is all subject to hear-say.

I have a few racked digital delays as part of other boxes.  I like them.
They're neato, peachy, and keen too.  I've been thinking about getting a
Line6 LM-4 (?) for analog delay modelling, but it doesn't have enough
control for my tastes.  The Blacet comes in the wrong package for my setup,
and the Moog is not only expensive, but I don't have any more table-top
space!

--PBr

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> -----Original Message-----
> From:	revtor@... [SMTP:revtor@...]
> Sent:	Wednesday, April 19, 2000 1:40 PM
> To:	motm@egroups.com
> Subject:	[motm] Delay Module..  Digital bad? 
> 
> Ill second the wish for a delay module.
> But I was wondering if it could be digital?  I mean analog is nice but
> with 
> digital the delays can be longer with no signal degradation and maybe even
> 
> potentially cheaper.  Maybe the digital delay cuts out some of the signal
> at 
> the low and high end?  Could these delays be used for CV's as well as
> audio?  
> Why is everyone so desiring an analog delay?  Anyway, as long as the delay
> 
> time and wet/dry controls are voltage controllable any delay is fine with
> me. 
>  Plus Blacet and Moog already have analog delay boxes out, lets make a
> better 
> one... Loong delays with a hold option, VC as many params as possible,
> maybe 
> be able to sync the delay to a clock or something like that too..
> I was actually considering mounting a Boss delay pedal onto a MOTM panel
> with 
> the MOTM knobs and stuff anyway...
> Why is Digital Delay bad?
> Why is analog Delay good?
> food for threads..
>

RE: [motm] Delay Module.. Digital bad?

2000-04-19 by Kevin Peek

I must third the motion for an analog delay. I have used many, MXR, Boss
DM-2, DM-3, Memoryman.
All are different. Some are deeper, some are noisier, and some are darker. I
have found BIG differences within the same models depending on what the
serial number is.

There really is some difference in the sound of a digital delay. They
(digital delays) seem to sound more similar across brands and models. The
only difference I hear is in the sample bit (8 vs 12 vs 16).

The cool thing about analog delays is that you can use it like another
module or instrument. Kick the feedback up and you get a modulating pad type
sound. Sweep the rate to create weird noises. Its really great stuff. PLUS
analog seems warmer. I just happen to like the analog sound a lot. However I
do use digital sometimes too.

I would suggest getting some pedals and compare them. Experiment. That is
what its about.

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-----Original Message-----
From: Tkacs, Ken [mailto:ken.tkacs@...]
Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2000 4:48 PM
To: 'motm@egroups.com'
Subject: RE: [motm] Delay Module.. Digital bad?

Analog and digital delays are really two different animals. One of each
would be cool!

But there's a particular sound to an analog delay that's kind of neat, and
the way the two sound while being modulated can be very distinctive. If you
haven't spent years using each, it's hard to describe the different
experiences of using them.

I don't know if it's *still* true of DDLs, but when they first came out,
they could not modulate the delay line NEARLY as deeply as an analog; analog
delays gave much deeper flanging effects, etc.

Normally you want longer and longer delays, but ironically, several of us on
this list are actually hoping for SHORTER delays--accurate in a range less
than 4 ms, so that we can do physical modeling!

So it's not that analog is good, digital is bad, etc. The point is (as
usual) that they are both DIFFERENT, but it sure is a helluva lot easier to
pick up a digital delay these days than an analog one. So you will tend to
find more people begging for an ADL. Me included. I have digital delays out
the wazoo; now I'm looking for an appropriate analog delay module for my
analog synthesizer.

 -----Original Message-----
From:   revtor@... [mailto:revtor@...]
Sent:   Wednesday, 19 April, 2000 4:40 PM
To:     motm@egroups.com
Subject:        [motm] Delay Module..  Digital bad?

Ill second the wish for a delay module.
But I was wondering if it could be digital?  I mean analog is nice but with
digital the delays can be longer with no signal degradation and maybe even
potentially cheaper.  Maybe the digital delay cuts out some of the signal at

the low and high end?  Could these delays be used for CV's as well as audio?

Why is everyone so desiring an analog delay?  Anyway, as long as the delay
time and wet/dry controls are voltage controllable any delay is fine with
me.
 Plus Blacet and Moog already have analog delay boxes out, lets make a
better
one... Loong delays with a hold option, VC as many params as possible, maybe

be able to sync the delay to a clock or something like that too..
I was actually considering mounting a Boss delay pedal onto a MOTM panel
with
the MOTM knobs and stuff anyway...
Why is Digital Delay bad?
Why is analog Delay good?
food for threads..

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RE: [motm] Delay Module.. Digital bad?

2000-04-20 by Brousseau, Paul E (Paul)

Do you suggest that the module use digital memory with an analog
VC-controlled clock?  That sounds interesting to me, albiet perhaps a bit
tricky.  I wonder what kind of different artifacts would be produced...

In another e-mail, you mentioned using a second delay line.  Apparently (if
I remember the discussion on SDIY correctly) you need to do this on an
analog delay as well, because while the caps (samples) in one line are
charging, you need the second line to discharge.  I suggested upping this to
more lines (3 or 4) but I don't think anyone commented.  I'm not sure what
benefit it might have.

--PBr

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> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Thomas Hudson [SMTP:thudson@...]
> Sent:	Wednesday, April 19, 2000 5:04 PM
> To:	motm@egroups.com
> Subject:	Re: [motm] Delay Module..  Digital bad? 
> 
> 
> Duh. All my previous rambling had a point I never made.
> I wonder the best of both worlds (or good parts from each)
> couldn't be had if you designed a digital circuit based
> on analog/bbd ideas. Don't do anything DSP based. Memory
> can be treated as a bbd. 
>

Re: [motm] Delay Module.. Digital bad?

2000-04-20 by davevosh@aol.com

In a message dated 00-04-19 20:21:51 EDT, you write:

<< 
 Ursa Major had a great digital multitap delay.  Not their big Space Station 
 unit, but a single rack space device.  It was very cool; got to play with 
one 
 for a week.
  >>



ivan,
the space station was pretty cool, too. years back, i had one and was quite 
fond of it. 
more recently, a friend of mine who had 3 of them sent me one saying that it 
didn`t work but it was mine and i should try to get it repaired. haven`t 
looked into that yet but it is sitting here still in the carton. maybe i 
better get moving on this........ it would be a great thing to have again !
best,
dave v.

Re: [motm] Delay Module.. Digital bad?

2000-04-20 by davevosh@aol.com

In a message dated 00-04-19 23:31:02 EDT, you write:

<< Marshall Time Modulator.  >>


ivan,
i haven`t seen one of those in years !  they were pretty neat, however. they 
used to be made in lutherville ( a suburb of baltimore ) and i went up to 
their facility to visit once ( i live in a suburb of washington,d.c. ). they 
were very friendly and i was always sad i couldn`t come up with the money to 
buy one.
best,
dave  v.