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Re: [motm] [OT] Vocoders

Re: [motm] [OT] Vocoders

2000-06-13 by Paul Schreiber

The vocoder used by Wendy Carlos in "A Clockwork Orange" is in Figures 28
and 29 of the
boxed set booklet.

It used 10 bandpass filters, 10 envelope followers, and 10 VCAs.

Paul S.

----- Original Message -----
From: "skinny bastard" <skin_job@...>
To: <motm@egroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2000 11:42 AM
Subject: [motm] [OT] Vocoders


> Forgive my ignorance, but in vocoders, what would be a general equivelant,
> in terms of modules used, and what special features are generally
available
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> on these that would be difficult to do with a system of modules.
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RE: [motm] [OT] Vocoders

2000-06-13 by Tkacs, Ken

She had two modified Moog 914 Fixed Filter Banks, one acting as the spectrum
decoder and the other as the spectrum encoder, plus ten each VCAs & Envelope
Followers.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
 -----Original Message-----
From: 	Dave Bradley [mailto:daveb@...] 
Sent:	Tuesday, 13 June, 2000 1:54 PM
To:	motm@egroups.com
Subject:	RE: [motm] [OT] Vocoders

Wouldn't she have needed 2 sets of 10 bandpass filters, a set for the
analyzer and a set to feed the output VCAs?

Dave Bradley
Principal Software Engineer
Engineering Animation, Inc.
daveb@...

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul Schreiber [mailto:synth1@...]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2000 12:00 PM
> To: motm@egroups.com
> Subject: Re: [motm] [OT] Vocoders
>
>
> The vocoder used by Wendy Carlos in "A Clockwork Orange" is in Figures 28
> and 29 of the
> boxed set booklet.
>
> It used 10 bandpass filters, 10 envelope followers, and 10 VCAs.
>
> Paul S.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "skinny bastard" <skin_job@...>
> To: <motm@egroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2000 11:42 AM
> Subject: [motm] [OT] Vocoders
>
>
> > Forgive my ignorance, but in vocoders, what would be a general
> equivelant,
> > in terms of modules used, and what special features are generally
> available
> > on these that would be difficult to do with a system of modules.
> > ________________________________________________________________________
> > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Porsche Boxter. You and a friend. Nine dream days from
> > Napa Valley to Beverly Hills. Provided by CarsDirect.com.
> > Click to enter.
> > http://click.egroups.com/1/4882/5/_/529958/_/960914567/
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Get a NextCard Visa, in 30 seconds!
> 1. Fill in the brief application
> 2. Receive approval decision within 30 seconds
> 3. Get rates as low as 2.9% Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR
> http://click.egroups.com/1/5197/5/_/529958/_/960915329/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>


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RE: [motm] [OT] Vocoders

2000-06-13 by Dave Bradley

Wouldn't she have needed 2 sets of 10 bandpass filters, a set for the
analyzer and a set to feed the output VCAs?

Dave Bradley
Principal Software Engineer
Engineering Animation, Inc.
daveb@...
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul Schreiber [mailto:synth1@...]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2000 12:00 PM
> To: motm@egroups.com
> Subject: Re: [motm] [OT] Vocoders
>
>
> The vocoder used by Wendy Carlos in "A Clockwork Orange" is in Figures 28
> and 29 of the
> boxed set booklet.
>
> It used 10 bandpass filters, 10 envelope followers, and 10 VCAs.
>
> Paul S.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "skinny bastard" <skin_job@...>
> To: <motm@egroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2000 11:42 AM
> Subject: [motm] [OT] Vocoders
>
>
> > Forgive my ignorance, but in vocoders, what would be a general
> equivelant,
> > in terms of modules used, and what special features are generally
> available
> > on these that would be difficult to do with a system of modules.
> > ________________________________________________________________________
> > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Porsche Boxter. You and a friend. Nine dream days from
> > Napa Valley to Beverly Hills. Provided by CarsDirect.com.
> > Click to enter.
> > http://click.egroups.com/1/4882/5/_/529958/_/960914567/
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Get a NextCard Visa, in 30 seconds!
> 1. Fill in the brief application
> 2. Receive approval decision within 30 seconds
> 3. Get rates as low as 2.9% Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR
> http://click.egroups.com/1/5197/5/_/529958/_/960915329/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>

Re: [motm] [OT] Vocoders

2000-06-13 by jhaible

> Wouldn't she have needed 2 sets of 10 bandpass filters, a set for the
> analyzer and a set to feed the output VCAs?

I think so. I heard a rumor that it were two modified fixed fiter banks.
But think of it, with 20 band pass filters (and garden variety
2-pole state variable will *not* do the trick!) you just get a 10 channel
vocoder. Not exactly amazing.

JH.

Re: [motm] [OT] Vocoders

2000-06-13 by Nathan Alan Hunsicker

just a stupid question, is there some internal link between bands on a
vocoder? i'm asking because i'm wondering if 2 8 band vocoders = a 16
band vocoder or if it doesn't work that way. -Nate

jhaible wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> > Wouldn't she have needed 2 sets of 10 bandpass filters, a set for
> the
> > analyzer and a set to feed the output VCAs?
>
> I think so. I heard a rumor that it were two modified fixed fiter
> banks.
> But think of it, with 20 band pass filters (and garden variety
> 2-pole state variable will *not* do the trick!) you just get a 10
> channel
> vocoder. Not exactly amazing.
>
> JH.
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>

Re: [motm] [OT] Vocoders

2000-06-13 by jhaible

> just a stupid question, is there some internal link between bands on a
> vocoder? i'm asking because i'm wondering if 2 8 band vocoders = a 16
> band vocoder or if it doesn't work that way. -Nate

No, *this* does not work at all, for obvious reasons.
But even when you double the number of bands and adjust the filter
frequencies accordingly, your efforts will have to be way more than doubled.
As a (very rough) rule of thumb, doubling the number of channels means
3 things:
(1) Doubling the number of channels (obviously)
(2) Making the filters more selective / small band -> double the amount
      of circuitry for each filter
(3) More selective -> need lower tolerance components or larger, less
      sensitive filter topologies -> more expensive components, or more
      components
These 3 factors *multiply*. So as a rule of thumb, the effort for the
filters
will increase more than quadratic, less than cubic.
Number of channels x 2 => effort x 4 ... x 8

There *are* other things to consider, but now you get an idea while
an 8-channel Paia can be so cheap and a 20-band Sennheiser or
22-band EMS 5000 are more than just 3 times as expensive.

JH.

Re: [motm] [OT] Vocoders

2000-06-13 by Nathan Alan Hunsicker

Just for the record, I picked 8 bands out of the blue, I wasn't
referring to the PAIA vocoder per se. Although didn't someone write that
when put to the test the PAIA only has 3 or so "actual" bands, I seem to
recall reading that somewhere. Although this does help me to understand
the expense and labor required. -Nate

jhaible wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> > just a stupid question, is there some internal link between bands on
> a
> > vocoder? i'm asking because i'm wondering if 2 8 band vocoders = a
> 16
> > band vocoder or if it doesn't work that way. -Nate
>
> No, *this* does not work at all, for obvious reasons.
> But even when you double the number of bands and adjust the filter
> frequencies accordingly, your efforts will have to be way more than
> doubled.
> As a (very rough) rule of thumb, doubling the number of channels means
>
> 3 things:
> (1) Doubling the number of channels (obviously)
> (2) Making the filters more selective / small band -> double the
> amount
>       of circuitry for each filter
> (3) More selective -> need lower tolerance components or larger, less
>       sensitive filter topologies -> more expensive components, or
> more
>       components
> These 3 factors *multiply*. So as a rule of thumb, the effort for the
> filters
> will increase more than quadratic, less than cubic.
> Number of channels x 2 => effort x 4 ... x 8
>
> There *are* other things to consider, but now you get an idea while
> an 8-channel Paia can be so cheap and a 20-band Sennheiser or
> 22-band EMS 5000 are more than just 3 times as expensive.
>
> JH.
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>            [GO.com. Click to find what you're looking for]
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>

Re: [motm] [OT] Vocoders

2000-06-14 by J. Larry Hendry

> From: Nathan Alan Hunsicker <nate@...>
> Although didn't someone write that
> when put to the test the PAIA only has 3 or so
> "actual" bands, I seem to recall reading that somewhere.
> Although this does help me to understand
> the expense and labor required. -Nate

I have seen this (rumor) too.  However, there was a modification to the
original PAiA design that did more to reduce noise and even out the bands
so that more are active/open at the same time.  In my opinion, these
additional op amps made for a significant improvement in the PAiA
performance.  However, my VERY limited vocoder experience has taught me to
put a nice 31 band EQ on the microphone channel when dealing with an
inexpensive vocoder like the PAiA that does not have level controls for the
individual bands.  You can manipulate the EQ to even out the levels to
greatly improve performance of even cheap vocoders.  First and foremost is
a reduction in the bass end.  It seems to me that bass frequencies of a
voice are of greater magnitude than frequencies in the upper spectrum. 
Yet, bass frequencies in an inexpensive vocoder tend to really muddy up the
sound and make the speech difficult to understand.  So, roll off the bass
end for added clarity.

I have built the PAiA vocoder, and like most PAiA products, cost cutting
was a primary initiative.  However, I was significantly impressed with the
price / performance ratio (Especially with the Scott Lee modification).  A
while back, I made several samples for John (using the PAiA vocoder) for
his web site.  I sent them to him without telling his what any of them
"said."  He pegged them all, which does at least say that the speak was
intelligible.  Now, when he put them on his site, he ruined them by
squeezing them to 8 bit resolution and 11kHz sample rate (to save space). 
I still have all the full bandwidth samples I would gladly mail to anyone
privately if they are interested.  Compared to the anticipated SynthTech
vocoder, I am positive it is totally anemic.  However, compared to other
under $500 choices, I think it stands up real well.  I think most of the
people who can't get good sounds from it (and other vocoders) just don't
know how to "adjust" their gear.

I'm not promoting the PAiA vocoder here on the motm list -- just giving a
first-hand, objective review of its actual performance.

Stooge Larry

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