The Mellotron Group

I'm amazed how everyone has thrown "Watcher" under the bus like it was a 2000 era bullshit Fripp tune...  (boring!) 

That opening defined that era...  Don't hide...

Hey...  Wake up y'all...  This is why we are here...  Not because some dude from the 18th century wrote some tune that "brings you back"...  or some dude in 2008 who pretends to write the same bull shit that  nobody gives a shit about that "brings you back"...

Don't care... What was important was hearing Wakeman destroy the sound system at the Spectrum in Philly opening up with Firebird in 73'...   That was important...

We are here because someone took this piece of machinery and played "And You and I", or "Court", or "Tuesday" or "Cirkus" or some other bull shit "Prog" tune...  Don't over-analyse...

It really pisses me off when I hear the real people slag it off like it didn't exist...

I work with a person who always wondered what the fuck that sound was...  So I played it for her and now there is another "sucker", I mean person, who understands how "Heart of the Sunrise" begins...

Never forget...


 
"But when you think of me tune in the frequency, Come out and play come out and play"
...Gandalf Murphy and The Slambovian Circus of Dreams

 "Nothing can change the shape of things to come." 
...Max Frost
 
"Any talent that we are born with eventually surfaces as a need"
...Marsha Sinetar











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Well and colorfully said!!


--- In newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com, zappaboggs <zappaboggs@...> 
wrote:
>
> I'm amazed how everyone has thrown "Watcher" under the bus like it 
was a 2000 era bullshit Fripp tune...  (boring!) 
> 
> That opening defined that era...  Don't hide...
> 
> Hey...  Wake up y'all...  This is why we are here...  Not because 
some dude from the 18th century wrote some tune that "brings you 
back"...  or some dude in 2008 who pretends to write the same bull 
shit that  nobody gives a shit about that "brings you back"...
> 
> Don't care... What was important was hearing Wakeman destroy the 
sound system at the Spectrum in Philly opening up with Firebird in 
73'...   That was important...
> 
> We are here because someone took this piece of machinery and 
played "And You and I", or "Court", or "Tuesday" or "Cirkus" or some 
other bull shit "Prog" tune...  Don't over-analyse...
> 
> It really pisses me off when I hear the real people slag it off 
like it didn't exist...
> 
> I work with a person who always wondered what the fuck that sound 
was...  So I played it for her and now there is another "sucker", I 
mean person, who understands how "Heart of the Sunrise" begins...
> 
> Never forget...
> 
> 
>  
> "But when you think of me tune in the frequency, Come out and play 
come out and play"
> ...Gandalf Murphy and The Slambovian Circus of Dreams
> 
>  "Nothing can change the shape of things to come." 
> ...Max Frost
>  
> "Any talent that we are born with eventually surfaces as a need"
> ...Marsha Sinetar
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>       
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______________
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--- zappaboggs <zappaboggs@yahoo.com> wrote:
That opening defined that era... 

Not for me, I only heard it for the first time a
couple of days ago, I love most sounds of the
mellotron, maybe there is a problem with the remix but
the sound seems flat and shallow to me and it isn't a
chord progression that I find interesting.

I quite like some Genesis, Seven Stones probably my
favourite but they weren't a band I listened to much
first time round. In contrast I recently bought Lizard
and that remix sounds pretty good.

Anyway just a personal opinion but if the sound from
Watcher was all a tron could do, I wouldn't bother.

Mark

> I'm amazed how everyone has thrown "Watcher" under
> the bus like it was a 2000 era bullshit Fripp
> tune...  (boring!) 
> 
> That opening defined that era...  Don't hide...
> 
> Hey...  Wake up y'all...  This is why we are here...
>  Not because some dude from the 18th century wrote
> some tune that "brings you back"...  or some dude in
> 2008 who pretends to write the same bull shit that 
> nobody gives a shit about that "brings you back"...
> 
> Don't care... What was important was hearing Wakeman
> destroy the sound system at the Spectrum in Philly
> opening up with Firebird in 73'...   That was
> important...
> 
> We are here because someone took this piece of
> machinery and played "And You and I", or "Court", or
> "Tuesday" or "Cirkus" or some other bull shit "Prog"
> tune...  Don't over-analyse...
> 
> It really pisses me off when I hear the real people
> slag it off like it didn't exist...
> 
> I work with a person who always wondered what the
> fuck that sound was...  So I played it for her and
> now there is another "sucker", I mean person, who
> understands how "Heart of the Sunrise" begins...
> 
> Never forget...
> 
> 
>  
> "But when you think of me tune in the frequency,
> Come out and play come out and play"
> ...Gandalf Murphy and The Slambovian Circus of
> Dreams
> 
>  "Nothing can change the shape of things to come." 
> ...Max Frost
>  
> "Any talent that we are born with eventually
> surfaces as a need"
> ...Marsha Sinetar
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>      
>
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Perhaps for you, not for me. It's perfectly possible to love the 
instrument and loathe most of the stuff you list.

The fact that I might have listened to this when I was 14 doesn't make 
it any better.

Mike

zappaboggs wrote:

> Hey...  Wake up y'all...  This is why we are here...  Not because some 
> dude from the 18th century wrote some tune that "brings you back"...  
> or some dude in 2008 who pretends to write the same bull shit that  
> nobody gives a shit about that "brings you back"...
>
> Don't care... What was important was hearing Wakeman destroy the sound 
> system at the Spectrum in Philly opening up with Firebird in 73'...   
> That was important...
>



>
>
>
>

--- In newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com, Mike Dickson 
<mike.dickson@...> wrote:

> The fact that I might have listened to this when I was 14 doesn't 
make it any better.
> 
> Mike

Yes...Exactly Mike.  I often get a warm fuzzy nostalgic feeling when I 
hear something from 1970.  Yes, I was 14.  (Do the math)  14 must be a 
special age for auditory memory.  

A song can "take you back".  It might be a great composition or total 
crap.

Clay

Perhaps a discussion on the roots of progressive music in general would be
more productive than
a subjective back and forth. The fact that Mark is listening to Watcher
for the first time here in 2006 (which is commendable) obviously gives him
a different perspective than someone who saw them blow the balls and tw-ts
off the audience at the Academy of Music in 1974. It's not really fair to
directly compare progressive musicians to classical composers is it? I
don't think Nelson Riddle or Irving Berlin could stand up to such a thing.
Progressive rock didn't come directly out of a classical tradition
(although a lot of us did run away from music academy to join the circus).
It came out of psychedelic rock, George Martin's arrangements for the
Beatles and other odd places. What's the point in trying to figure out if
Watcher is good or not? Lets do some teaching instead.
Where did Watcher of the Skies come from and why did it make a substantial
contribution to the evolution of progressive music?

> --- In newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com, Mike Dickson
> <mike.dickson@...> wrote:
>
>> The fact that I might have listened to this when I was 14 doesn't
> make it any better.
>>
>> Mike
>
> Yes...Exactly Mike.  I often get a warm fuzzy nostalgic feeling when I
> hear something from 1970.  Yes, I was 14.  (Do the math)  14 must be a
> special age for auditory memory.
>
> A song can "take you back".  It might be a great composition or total
> crap.
>
> Clay
>
>
>

For me, it's not a question of good or bad, bashing anyone's music,  or 
throwing anything under the bus; it's a question of whether or not it's  personally 
appealing, steering away from any technical analysis or the merits of  the 
music itself -  a whole 'nother story.  In the case of  "Watcher"/Genesis, it's 
an interesting tron sound (which I have in my MkII) and  they were an 
interesting band that produced some interesting music, but neither  "Watcher" nor 
Genesis simply carried as much personal appeal for me as, say, YES  (up to and 
including Close To The Edge), Moodies (classic 7), Strawbs (up  to and including 
Ghosts), or ELP (up to and including Brain Salad Surgery) from  that era.  
Others may and certainly do feel differently.   Personal choice; I don't lose 
sleep over it.  Not limiting this idea to  bands, Celine Dion (aside from the 
fact she does not write any of her material)  sells tons of records and sells out 
all her shows and has mass appeal, but you  won't find any of her recordings 
in my collection; rather you'll find me  listening to the likes of Edwina 
Hayes, or L.A.-based Meredith  Meyer.  Again, the eye of the beholder...
 
...and I also like anchovies on a pizza; some of you don't! 

Frank 1
 
 
In a message dated 3/8/2008 6:44:11 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,  
zappaboggs@yahoo.com writes:

I'm  amazed how everyone has thrown "Watcher" under the bus like it was a 
2000 era  bullshit Fripp tune...  (boring!) 

That opening defined that  era...  Don't hide...

Hey...  Wake up y'all...  This is  why we are here...  Not because some dude 
from the 18th century wrote  some tune that "brings you back"...  or some dude 
in 2008 who pretends to  write the same bull shit that  nobody gives a shit 
about that "brings you  back"...

Don't care... What was important was hearing Wakeman destroy  the sound 
system at the Spectrum in Philly opening up with Firebird in 73'...  That was 
important...

We are here because someone took this  piece of machinery and played "And You 
and I", or "Court", or "Tuesday" or  "Cirkus" or some other bull shit "Prog" 
tune...  Don't  over-analyse. D

It really pisses me off when I hear the real  people slag it off like it 
didn't exist...

I work with a person who  always wondered what the fuck that sound was...  So 
I played it for her  and now there is another "sucker", I mean person, who 
understands how "Heart  of the Sunrise" begins...

Never  forget...





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So that's why I never got into Genesis. Problem
solved, I would have been too old!

Mark
--- ceccles_ca <ecclesreinson@rogers.com> wrote:

> --- In newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com, Mike
> Dickson 
> <mike.dickson@...> wrote:
> 
> > The fact that I might have listened to this when I
> was 14 doesn't 
> make it any better.
> > 
> > Mike
> 
> Yes...Exactly Mike.  I often get a warm fuzzy
> nostalgic feeling when I 
> hear something from 1970.  Yes, I was 14.  (Do the
> math)  14 must be a 
> special age for auditory memory.  
> 
> A song can "take you back".  It might be a great
> composition or total 
> crap.
> 
> Clay
> 
> 
> 



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Eh? What's that Sonny?

--- In newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com, Mark Pring wrote:
>
> So that's why I never got into Genesis. Problem
> solved, I would have been too old!
>
> Mark
> --- ceccles_ca ecclesreinson@... wrote:
>
> > --- In newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com, Mike
> > Dickson
> > mike.dickson@ wrote:
> >
> > > The fact that I might have listened to this when I
> > was 14 doesn't
> > make it any better.
> > >
> > > Mike
> >
> > Yes...Exactly Mike. I often get a warm fuzzy
> > nostalgic feeling when I
> > hear something from 1970. Yes, I was 14. (Do the
> > math) 14 must be a
> > special age for auditory memory.
> >
> > A song can "take you back". It might be a great
> > composition or total
> > crap.
> >
> > Clay
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
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> Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
>

Yeah, i agree- personal choice. I get a little oversensitive when people
start tearing down the accomplishments of the "classic" progressive
players of the 70's. At that time, as you know, there was acute criticism
of the progressive rock form to begin with and someone without the
advantage of bodyguards could get beaten for liking Yes or Genesis in
certain parts of Long Island!
  I certainly don't want to defend Genesis, they bash the progressive
period of their career worse than anybody. I don't know if i would
actually stop anyone from throwing Phil Collins or Tony Banks under a
bus. Sell-outs!
  I would still like to know why that album sounds the way it does. Was it
a choice made by the band, was it the producer? Trident studios
obviously had the equipment to get a mellotron sounding right. I've
heard several versions of Watchers and a few live ones. The Genesis live
album  has it played much slower and the Mellotron is more prominent- I
think it is more effective there.
Good- bad , whatever. I just like knowing about stuff. Isn't the Watchers
tape mix just 3 violin and mixed brass blended together? You'd have to add
the bass accordian on the left hand side.

> For me, it's not a question of good or bad, bashing anyone's music,  or
> throwing anything under the bus; it's a question of whether or not it's
> personally
> appealing, steering away from any technical analysis or the merits of  the
> music itself -  a whole 'nother story.  In the case of  "Watcher"/Genesis,
> it's
> an interesting tron sound (which I have in my MkII) and  they were an
> interesting band that produced some interesting music, but neither
> "Watcher" nor
> Genesis simply carried as much personal appeal for me as, say, YES  (up to
> and
> including Close To The Edge), Moodies (classic 7), Strawbs (up  to and
> including
> Ghosts), or ELP (up to and including Brain Salad Surgery) from  that era.
> Others may and certainly do feel differently.   Personal choice; I don't
> lose
> sleep over it.  Not limiting this idea to  bands, Celine Dion (aside from
> the
> fact she does not write any of her material)  sells tons of records and
> sells out
> all her shows and has mass appeal, but you  won't find any of her
> recordings
> in my collection; rather you'll find me  listening to the likes of Edwina
> Hayes, or L.A.-based Meredith  Meyer.  Again, the eye of the beholder...
>
> ...and I also like anchovies on a pizza; some of you don't!
>
> Frank 1
>
>
> In a message dated 3/8/2008 6:44:11 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
> zappaboggs@yahoo.com writes:
>
> I'm  amazed how everyone has thrown "Watcher" under the bus like it was a
> 2000 era  bullshit Fripp tune...  (boring!)
>
> That opening defined that  era...  Don't hide...
>
> Hey...  Wake up y'all...  This is  why we are here...  Not because some
> dude
> from the 18th century wrote  some tune that "brings you back"...  or some
> dude
> in 2008 who pretends to  write the same bull shit that  nobody gives a
> shit
> about that "brings you  back"...
>
> Don't care... What was important was hearing Wakeman destroy  the sound
> system at the Spectrum in Philly opening up with Firebird in 73'...  That
> was
> important...
>
> We are here because someone took this  piece of machinery and played "And
> You
> and I", or "Court", or "Tuesday" or  "Cirkus" or some other bull shit
> "Prog"
> tune...  Don't  over-analyse. D
>
> It really pisses me off when I hear the real  people slag it off like it
> didn't exist...
>
> I work with a person who  always wondered what the fuck that sound was...
> So
> I played it for her  and now there is another "sucker", I mean person, who
> understands how "Heart  of the Sunrise" begins...
>
> Never  forget...
>
>
>
>
>
> **************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money &
> Finance.      (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001)
>

Anyway you look at it it's a choice. Listen to the difference between the
sound of Mike Pinder's Mellotron and Ian MacDonald's. Crimson decided not to
use the Moodies' producer because they did not think the over drenched
reverb on the guitars and tron would suit their music. I think that Genesis
decided to make the tron sound that way. Certainly the technology was
available to color the tron in however they wanted to.

 

  _____  

From: newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Thomas C. Doncourt
Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2008 3:31 PM
To: newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [newmellotrongroup] So, getting back to Watcher...

 

Yeah, i agree- personal choice. I get a little oversensitive when people
start tearing down the accomplishments of the "classic" progressive
players of the 70's. At that time, as you know, there was acute criticism
of the progressive rock form to begin with and someone without the
advantage of bodyguards could get beaten for liking Yes or Genesis in
certain parts of Long Island!
I certainly don't want to defend Genesis, they bash the progressive
period of their career worse than anybody. I don't know if i would
actually stop anyone from throwing Phil Collins or Tony Banks under a
bus. Sell-outs!
I would still like to know why that album sounds the way it does. Was it
a choice made by the band, was it the producer? Trident studios
obviously had the equipment to get a mellotron sounding right. I've
heard several versions of Watchers and a few live ones. The Genesis live
album has it played much slower and the Mellotron is more prominent- I
think it is more effective there.
Good- bad , whatever. I just like knowing about stuff. Isn't the Watchers
tape mix just 3 violin and mixed brass blended together? You'd have to add
the bass accordian on the left hand side.

> For me, it's not a question of good or bad, bashing anyone's music, or
> throwing anything under the bus; it's a question of whether or not it's
> personally
> appealing, steering away from any technical analysis or the merits of the
> music itself - a whole 'nother story. In the case of "Watcher"/Genesis,
> it's
> an interesting tron sound (which I have in my MkII) and they were an
> interesting band that produced some interesting music, but neither
> "Watcher" nor
> Genesis simply carried as much personal appeal for me as, say, YES (up to
> and
> including Close To The Edge), Moodies (classic 7), Strawbs (up to and
> including
> Ghosts), or ELP (up to and including Brain Salad Surgery) from that era.
> Others may and certainly do feel differently. Personal choice; I don't
> lose
> sleep over it. Not limiting this idea to bands, Celine Dion (aside from
> the
> fact she does not write any of her material) sells tons of records and
> sells out
> all her shows and has mass appeal, but you won't find any of her
> recordings
> in my collection; rather you'll find me listening to the likes of Edwina
> Hayes, or L.A.-based Meredith Meyer. Again, the eye of the beholder...
>
> ...and I also like anchovies on a pizza; some of you don't!
>
> Frank 1
>
>
> In a message dated 3/8/2008 6:44:11 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
> zappaboggs@yahoo. <mailto:zappaboggs%40yahoo.com> com writes:
>
> I'm amazed how everyone has thrown "Watcher" under the bus like it was a
> 2000 era bullshit Fripp tune... (boring!)
>
> That opening defined that era... Don't hide...
>
> Hey... Wake up y'all... This is why we are here... Not because some
> dude
> from the 18th century wrote some tune that "brings you back"... or some
> dude
> in 2008 who pretends to write the same bull shit that nobody gives a
> shit
> about that "brings you back"...
>
> Don't care... What was important was hearing Wakeman destroy the sound
> system at the Spectrum in Philly opening up with Firebird in 73'... That
> was
> important...
>
> We are here because someone took this piece of machinery and played "And
> You
> and I", or "Court", or "Tuesday" or "Cirkus" or some other bull shit
> "Prog"
> tune... Don't over-analyse. D
>
> It really pisses me off when I hear the real people slag it off like it
> didn't exist...
>
> I work with a person who always wondered what the fuck that sound was...
> So
> I played it for her and now there is another "sucker", I mean person, who
> understands how "Heart of the Sunrise" begins...
>
> Never forget...
>
>
>
>
>
> **************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money &
> Finance. (http://money.
<http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001>
aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001)
>

In a message dated 3/9/2008 4:58:40 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
kornowicz@cox.net writes:

Eh? What's  that Sonny? 




Jeez Bernie... Why do you always post photos of your  mom?



**************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money & 
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--- ceccles_ca <ecclesreinson@rogers.com> wrote:

> --- In newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com, Mike
> Dickson 
> <mike.dickson@...> wrote:
> 
> > The fact that I might have listened to this when I
> was 14 doesn't 
> make it any better.
> > 
> > Mike
> 
> Yes...Exactly Mike.  I often get a warm fuzzy
> nostalgic feeling when I 
> hear something from 1970.  Yes, I was 14.  (Do the
> math)  14 must be a 
> special age for auditory memory.  
> 
> A song can "take you back".  It might be a great
> composition or total 
> crap.
> 
> Clay
> 
> 
> 

I guess I'm a member of this vintage club too.  I also
loved discovering how music was made back then. 
Example: I knew there was something different about
the Moody Blues sound, but didn't connect it to the
'tron until about '73.  The auditory memory aspect of
that era rang true for me also.   It still
rings....but that's my tinnitis.

   -Bruce D.



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