Wiardgroup

SUBJECTIVITY ALERT!!SUBJECTIVITY ALERT!!SUBJECTIVITY ALERT!!

I know this is entering into squishy territory, but can anybody comment on the difference between the lowpass portion of the Borg 2 and the Boogie filter?  First off, what's the filter cutoff on the Borg 2?  I assume to get the lowpass gate effect on the Borg 2 you send an envelope to the filter and set it so you can't hear any thing when the CV is at zero.  Is there more to it than this? Couldn't I use my Boogie Filter as a LPG?

Since I have another multimode filter do I need the Borg 2 if I already have the Boogie?

OK, I'm done peppering you with questions.

Bryan



>>> djthomaswhite@yahoo.com 01/09/06 12:41 PM >>>
Hey all, glad some of you have got something out of the sample. Now 
go buy to Borg 2's to do it on your own. I love the sound!

So, regarding the sample: The high pitch sound at that time in the 
sample is a the second oscillator with a high frequency setting due 
to the randomness of the sample and hold. The sustain on that part of 
the sound is due to me slowing down the pulse rate on the LFO. This 
stretches out the pulse to be a little longer so the sound of the 
gate sustains a little bit. You can still hear the nice shapre the 
vactrol adds to the notes when it ends as a sound with decay. 

As I have the Dual Borg, I have resonance turned up on the which 
might have caused some oscillation at the point of mention in the 
sample. The dual set up can release some 25V peak to peak madness. 
Dangerous but really makes some cool sounds when attenuated down. 
Dual oscillating filters with a bit of pink noise make mean kick 
drums. Thanks folks,

Thomas

--- In wiardgroup@yahoogroups.com, "Pierre Zeeman" <pierrezee@h...> 
wrote:
>
> Hi wiardians,
> 
> > On 1/7/06, thomas white <djthomaswhite@y...> wrote:
> > >
> > > www.naturalrhythmmusic.com/WiardBorgLowpassGate.mp3 
> > >
> 
> Thomas - thanks for that demo: it has really piqued my interest.  
But
> I have a question: what causes that high pitched sustained sound 
(most
> obvious from 2:33 - 2:46)?
> 
> And then, borg owners, I have a few questions about the module 
itself: 
> 
> - does the type knob permit smooth transitions from LP to BP to HP? 
> If so, if this CV controllable in any way?
> - is the control range knob an attenuator for control in?  If so, is
> this the only difference between control in and key in?
> 
> thanks for your time,
> 
> rgds
> 
> Pierre
>







 
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The "VCA" mode of either Borg makes it a 1-pole filter; 6db/oct.  

The basic sound of the Borg2 and the Boogie is quite separate and
unique.  The Boogie is a ladder design - it has a 'Moogish" timbre. 
The Borg 2 is a 12db/oct state variable.  

The lowpass gate isn't just for pinging pulses.  In the older Buchla
200 systems, a lowpass gate could be used in any situation that a VCA
in any other system could be utilized.  

In fact, the Borg 1's decay is too slow for many applications typical
of VCA performance.  The Buchla's 292 lowpass gate was snappy and
closed off completely, but its setbacks were the fact that it had a
quasi exponential cv response, resulting in it being off for a large
portion of its cv range, and that Buchla audio systems were only 1v
peak to peak rather than the 10v peak to peak of the Wiard and other
systems.

The Borg2's performance is really stunning as a lowpass gate - much
faster than the Borg 1, it performs fantastically in just about every
instance.  The attack response is so fast that one can really tune the
woody "chunk" at the front of the transient.  

I contend that "the Wiard Sound" is the sound of two Wiard filters in
the patch.  The Boogie and Borg 2 make a great match for Filter/vca.

gc

----- Original Message ----- 
>
> The basic sound of the Borg2 and the Boogie is quite separate and
> unique.  The Boogie is a ladder design - it has a 'Moogish" timbre.
> The Borg 2 is a 12db/oct state variable.

Well, not quite. Grant recently wrote:
    "Personally I find state variable filters to be completely boring.
Although the SEM used one and some people like it. For musical drama, a
Sallen-Key (Borg) or Butterworth 4 pole (Boogie) gives much better results.
Five years ago I prototyped a state variable filter made with Vactrols and
it was so 'plain vanilla' I almost cried. Painfully unexciting."
--
john

true - it is a sallen-key filter, but, since it can be switched from
low pass to band pass to high pass, then, by definition, it is a state
variable, too. :-)

gc

"john mahoney" <jmahoney@g...> wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> >
> > The basic sound of the Borg2 and the Boogie is quite separate and
> > unique.  The Boogie is a ladder design - it has a 'Moogish" timbre.
> > The Borg 2 is a 12db/oct state variable.
> 
> Well, not quite. Grant recently wrote:
>     "Personally I find state variable filters to be completely boring.
> Although the SEM used one and some people like it. For musical drama, a
> Sallen-Key (Borg) or Butterworth 4 pole (Boogie) gives much better
results.
> Five years ago I prototyped a state variable filter made with
Vactrols and

> it was so 'plain vanilla' I almost cried. Painfully unexciting."
> --
> john
>

Hi All
it would appear that this discussion is in danger of foundering on the
perilous rocks of semantic conventions 
=]
(smart ass grin)
in his statements:
"Personally I find state variable filters to be completely boring." 
i believe prof. Richter was refering to the filter circuit exemplified
by the Oberheim SEm or the Serge VCFQ; a series of OTA's feeding
integrators, enclosed in an attenuated feedback loop. (& tapped at
three points to yield hi-pass, band-pass & low-pass outputs). This
topology is what techs who are immersed in the culture of analog
synths call a 'classic' state-variable. It's a convention.

But other topologies can yield multiple 'state' ouputs to the muscian
playing them . An array of sallen-key circuits can be configured to
yield various states (this is a clever trick and a trade secret of
wiard , unless i'm mistaken.)  And to the musician using the filter ,
there are 'states' and they are 'variable' so it looks like a duck and
quacks like a duck.... and so he calls it a 'duck'
To maestro Chang a sate variable is as a state variable does.
To prof. Richter a state variable is the blueprint for whats under the
hood. 
The 'state variable' term is being used in two distinctly different
contexts.

ok....
now that THAT little semantic tangle is sorted out, let's hurry up and
finalize an exhaustive definition of 'warm'... 
so that they can finally turn off that annoying Analog Heaven server
};'>
(extra smartass grin + wink, with diabolic provocateur horn attachemnt) 

-doc

The description "state variable filter" refers to a specific filter topology in engineering.

See: "A Beginner Guide to Filter Topologies"

http://www.maxim-ic.com/appnotes.cfm/appnote_number/1762

A state variable filter is the analogue computer simulation of a mass suspended on a spring.
You will find it in all analogue computing books as an introduction to analogue computer 
patching.

It is literally, the oldest trick in the book.

I should also mention that the Sallen-Key is lambasted in the engineering article, while the 
state variable is praised.

So I guess the point is, the more engineering precise a filter, the less musical it is.

Ironic, eh?

So if you want to clean up shortwave broadcasts to make a voice more intellegible,
use a state variable.

If you want to smack the sucker with a big pulse and get an acoustic sounding audio 
response, use a Sallen-Key.

What they are talking about with limited Q, I have no idea. Sallen-Key filters are resonant 
as Hell.

--- In wiardgroup@yahoogroups.com, "Grant Richter" <grichter@a...> wrote:
>
> The description "state variable filter" refers to a specific filter topology in engineering.
> 
> See: "A Beginner Guide to Filter Topologies"
> 
> http://www.maxim-ic.com/appnotes.cfm/appnote_number/1762
> 
> A state variable filter is the analogue computer simulation of a mass suspended on a 
spring.
> You will find it in all analogue computing books as an introduction to analogue 
computer 

> patching.
> 
> It is literally, the oldest trick in the book.
>

> To maestro Chang a sate variable is as a state variable does.
> To prof. Richter a state variable is the blueprint for whats under the
> hood. 
> The 'state variable' term is being used in two distinctly different
> contexts.

Doc's observation is correct from my pov - Grant's term refers to a
circuit design - I am referring to a functional description.

That is not to say that Grant and I disagree about anything - his
filters are the sound of my music....  And, as much as it seems that
using the Borg2 as the VCA instead of the filter in a patch is an
under-utilization of the Borg2 filter, I haven't found a module that
functions better in this task than the Borg2....

gc

Hi Gary
(just a quick comment)
--- In wiardgroup@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Chang" <gchang@c...> wrote:
> And, as much as it seems that using the Borg2 as the VCA instead of 
> the filter in a patch is an  under-utilization of the Borg2 filter, 

underutilization is one of the more luxurious benefits of ownership!
In my own case, i become drunk with power the minute i get the
bubble-wrap off of 'em
;'>
my current favorite VCO is the Sequantizer!

-doc

--- In wiardgroup@yahoogroups.com, "Grant Richter" <grichter@a...> wrote:

> What they are talking about with limited Q, I have no idea. Sallen-Key filters are 
resonant 
> as Hell.
> 


wow
I was unaware that Hell resonated