Wiardgroup

AT THE MOMENT* my 300 system consists of 8 modules and a controller.
Can I use a single Blacet power supply instead of two? 

Thanks,
TD

By "single power supply" do you mean a single ELPAC Power systems
supply (Model WM071-1950 +115VDC 0.24A)? If so, then absolutely
not! Grant usually supplies two of these to supply six modules. He supplies
a little harness that distributes the power to the six modules but there
are at least two of these supplies. That said, if this is not the case and
you have another type of supply, then you will have to check the power
rating of the supply. I use a PowerOne supply that is rated at 1.5A for
six modules. Allied stock number is 218-3006 and the manufacturers number is
HBB15-1.5-A (they are ~$60.00 each).




--- In wiardgroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tommy DOG" <mrsvomit@...> wrote:

>
> AT THE MOMENT* my 300 system consists of 8 modules and a controller.
> Can I use a single Blacet power supply instead of two? 
> 
> Thanks,
> TD
>

Thanks everyone for responding.

I am using two power supplies and I was just curious if I could get
away with less. No real need to, just a organizing of space issue.

The 4 modules to a Blacet power supply is probably a good measure.
Probably one could do 6 but that's probably the limit.

TD

--- In wiardgroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tommy DOG" <mrsvomit@...> wrote:

>
> AT THE MOMENT* my 300 system consists of 8 modules and a controller.
> Can I use a single Blacet power supply instead of two? 
> 
> Thanks,
> TD
>

Tommy,

I think you'll need more than a single power supply.  When I purchased 
my six module system plus New Controller earlier this year, Grant 
measured the current draw and found that the controller pushed things 
over the edge to the extent where he recommended two Blacet supplies. 
The six modules drew a peak of 475 mA from the +15V supply with all 
lights on, and the controller drew another 125 mA.  I believe the PS500 
supplies +15V @ 500mA.

Hope this helps.

George


Tommy DOG wrote:

> AT THE MOMENT* my 300 system consists of 8 modules and a controller.
> Can I use a single Blacet power supply instead of two? 
> 
> Thanks,
> TD

Speaking of current draw, a couple of questions...

I've got a 6 module system on order with Grant which I'm expecting in 
a few months.  I have some unused Blacet PS500's that I'm planning to 
use, but I'm wondering if anyone has measured or knows the current 
draw of the various 300 series modules.  I have never come across 
this information anywhere, and I'd like to know if I can power my 6 
module rack (VCO, Wogglebug, Sequantizer, Borg I, Envelator, 
Mixolator) from one PS500.

I believe that Grant once said the 1200 Series JAGs pulled about 
100ma each, and the joystick no more than 20.  So that would mean the 
New Controller would be pulling something like 240ma - almost half 
what a PS500 can manage.  I assume that's a lot more than any single 
300 Series module.

John Blacet told me the PS500 is very conservatively rated and one 
can safely draw up to 550ma from it.

A second question - it seems the PS500 doesn't have the ground prong 
of its power inlet wired up.  I have quite a few of these supplies 
and they are all configured this way by Blacet.   I know the 300 
series has been designed to automatically provide star grounding, but 
does it not compromise this when the path to ground through the power 
inlet is not available?

thanks everyone

--- In wiardgroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tommy DOG" <mrsvomit@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks everyone for responding.
> 
> I am using two power supplies and I was just curious if I could get
> away with less. No real need to, just a organizing of space issue.
> 
> The 4 modules to a Blacet power supply is probably a good measure.
> Probably one could do 6 but that's probably the limit.
> 
> TD
> 
> --- In wiardgroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tommy DOG" <mrsvomit@> wrote:
> >
> > AT THE MOMENT* my 300 system consists of 8 modules and a 
controller.

> > Can I use a single Blacet power supply instead of two? 
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > TD
> >
>

My six module system is nearly the same configuration as yours, with the 
exception that I have a Waveform City instead of a Classic VCO.  As I 
mentioned in my earlier post to Tommy, Grant measured the draw on my 
system to be 475 mA with all LED's illuminated.  I would imagine that 
your system will be in that general vicinity, which would mean that one 
PS500 will be pretty close to capacity, with perhaps a bit of headroom. 
  Grant also measured the draw on my New Controller to be 125 mA, which 
is why he recommended a second power supply for maximum stability.



muffwiggler wrote:

> Speaking of current draw, a couple of questions...
> 
> I've got a 6 module system on order with Grant which I'm expecting in 
> a few months.  I have some unused Blacet PS500's that I'm planning to 
> use, but I'm wondering if anyone has measured or knows the current 
> draw of the various 300 series modules.  I have never come across 
> this information anywhere, and I'd like to know if I can power my 6 
> module rack (VCO, Wogglebug, Sequantizer, Borg I, Envelator, 
> Mixolator) from one PS500.
> 
> I believe that Grant once said the 1200 Series JAGs pulled about 
> 100ma each, and the joystick no more than 20.  So that would mean the 
> New Controller would be pulling something like 240ma - almost half 
> what a PS500 can manage.  I assume that's a lot more than any single 
> 300 Series module.
> 
> John Blacet told me the PS500 is very conservatively rated and one 
> can safely draw up to 550ma from it.
> 
> A second question - it seems the PS500 doesn't have the ground prong 
> of its power inlet wired up.  I have quite a few of these supplies 
> and they are all configured this way by Blacet.   I know the 300 
> series has been designed to automatically provide star grounding, but 
> does it not compromise this when the path to ground through the power 
> inlet is not available?
> 
> thanks everyone

From: atonal <atonal@nycap.rr.com>
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 12:50:37 -0400
To: <wiardgroup@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [wiardgroup] Re: Power supply question

Hi Muff

--- In wiardgroup@yahoogroups.com, "Muff" <muff@...> wrote:
> It would be great if Grant or someone could provide some specs on
each module estimating the amount of current they use. I know these
aren't always absolute numbers though, perhaps that is part of the
concern with posting them. 

i have yet to see an analog module that did not draw a fluctuating
quantity of current. Admittedly it's a common* practice to publish a
current-draw that's an 'average' (sort of like RMS power ratings.)
Many makers do this and so did Wiard for a time.  
But a few bad experiences brought Grant to see that publishing
rule-of-thumb specs in good faith and assuming that everybody with the
cash to buy a Wiard would also be savvy enough to realize that 'actual
mileage may vary' was not in his best interest. 
Like most issues concerning Wiard i find it best to call him on the
phone and  work things out in a dialogue. i have an envelator with a
non-standard display and when i called Grant about it's special needs
, like power-supplies and critical spare parts, he took great pains
and spent lots of time making sure that not only my questions were
answered but that i grasped the big picture. This equipped me to
figure-out a lot of future issues on my own.

 In the early days of the 300 series, Grant neatly circumvented the
problem of matching of the module to it's power supply by selling
those large , very robust, Elpac pro-quality wall-warts ...one for
each module. So there was plenty of current-headroom on tap for
everybody in the rack. Sadly Elpac discontinued those redoubtable gadgets.
and....arguably,  it was overkill , (and it made for a very crowded
power strip)  but it was a good ounce of prevention against a user who
powered 9 modules with a single 200ma supply and then held Wiard
liable for the scorched power-supply chassis.

avanti!
-doc


* but the commonality of the practice muddies the water by creating a
false conventional perception that current draw is a point rather than
a line (and a fairly wiggly one at that)

--- In wiardgroup@yahoogroups.com, "Muff" <muff@...> wrote:
>
> Good to know, thanks!
> 
> It would be great if Grant or someone could provide some specs on
each module estimating the amount of current they use. I know these
aren't always absolute numbers though, perhaps that is part of the
concern with posting them. 
> 


Guys, this is analog, so all specs are just guide lines....  Of
course, I am not a technical expert, but in my practical experience,
the more amps, the merrier....


The bottom line is stability - even with power supplies operating
within the specs of the necessary current draw of the modules in your
system, the issue is really, "How stable do you want your oscillators
to be?"

If you really want VCO stability, you really want a separate PSU for
the VCOs, so that when your Woggle bug is wigging out with its LEDs,
there will be no microscopic pitch deviation due to the additional
current draw from the LED show.

In my system, I have a separate 1.5A PSU specifically for the
VCO/WFCs.  The rest are on a two other PSUs, isolating the VCOs from
any CV antics that I might conjur up in a patch.  Thie way, no changes
in the current draw resultant from LEDs of the other modules will
effect the VCOs tuning in any way.

The bottom line is that there is really not too much PSU amperage that
you can throw at your system - it is more about what you want to
afford....  But VCO stability is the major guideline.


gary

Hey Doc (and list),

How's it going? Note that the Elpac Supplies are still very much available.
Go to www.alliedelec.com and search for part number WM071-1950 they
sell for $37 USD.



--- In wiardgroup@yahoogroups.com, "drmabuce" <drmabuce@...> wrote:

>
> Hi Muff
> 
> --- In wiardgroup@yahoogroups.com, "Muff" <muff@> wrote:
> > It would be great if Grant or someone could provide some specs on
> each module estimating the amount of current they use. I know these
> aren't always absolute numbers though, perhaps that is part of the
> concern with posting them. 
> 
> i have yet to see an analog module that did not draw a fluctuating
> quantity of current. Admittedly it's a common* practice to publish a
> current-draw that's an 'average' (sort of like RMS power ratings.)
> Many makers do this and so did Wiard for a time.  
> But a few bad experiences brought Grant to see that publishing
> rule-of-thumb specs in good faith and assuming that everybody with the
> cash to buy a Wiard would also be savvy enough to realize that 'actual
> mileage may vary' was not in his best interest. 
> Like most issues concerning Wiard i find it best to call him on the
> phone and  work things out in a dialogue. i have an envelator with a
> non-standard display and when i called Grant about it's special needs
> , like power-supplies and critical spare parts, he took great pains
> and spent lots of time making sure that not only my questions were
> answered but that i grasped the big picture. This equipped me to
> figure-out a lot of future issues on my own.
> 
>  In the early days of the 300 series, Grant neatly circumvented the
> problem of matching of the module to it's power supply by selling
> those large , very robust, Elpac pro-quality wall-warts ...one for
> each module. So there was plenty of current-headroom on tap for
> everybody in the rack. Sadly Elpac discontinued those redoubtable gadgets.
> and....arguably,  it was overkill , (and it made for a very crowded
> power strip)  but it was a good ounce of prevention against a user who
> powered 9 modules with a single 200ma supply and then held Wiard
> liable for the scorched power-supply chassis.
> 
> avanti!
> -doc
> 
> 
> * but the commonality of the practice muddies the water by creating a
> false conventional perception that current draw is a point rather than
> a line (and a fairly wiggly one at that)
>

Hi Mike! 
always a pleasure to hear from you! and...

Sho NUFF! there they are!!!! big and heavy as life, +/-15V,
240ma-per-rail!

Obviously i am misinformed.

i had despaired of ever seeing them again and this was a real drag for
me because those things are the handiest thing EVER for powering my
goofy little electroniums.

In my defense, Newark canceled a 8-month backorder on me and when i
asked for an explanation they referred me to Elpac HQ and a lady there
told me that Elpac had discontinued the series and they were slowly
getting out of the linear supply business altogether. So i'm tickled
to death that the old iron has proven harder to kill than they imagined.

Allied shows 24 in stock today, y'all better get your orders in
because i'm going Xmas shopping pronto !!!!!! 

ho ho ho...this is one part of the economy that won't be slumping this
month!
-doc



--- In wiardgroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael A. Firman" <maf@...> wrote:
>
> Hey Doc (and list),
> 
> How's it going? Note that the Elpac Supplies are still very much
available.
> Go to www.alliedelec.com and search for part number WM071-1950 they
> sell for $37 USD.
> 
> 
> 
> --- In wiardgroup@yahoogroups.com, "drmabuce" <drmabuce@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Muff
> > 
> > --- In wiardgroup@yahoogroups.com, "Muff" <muff@> wrote:
> > > It would be great if Grant or someone could provide some specs on
> > each module estimating the amount of current they use. I know these
> > aren't always absolute numbers though, perhaps that is part of the
> > concern with posting them. 
> > 
> > i have yet to see an analog module that did not draw a fluctuating
> > quantity of current. Admittedly it's a common* practice to publish a
> > current-draw that's an 'average' (sort of like RMS power ratings.)
> > Many makers do this and so did Wiard for a time.  
> > But a few bad experiences brought Grant to see that publishing
> > rule-of-thumb specs in good faith and assuming that everybody with the
> > cash to buy a Wiard would also be savvy enough to realize that 'actual
> > mileage may vary' was not in his best interest. 
> > Like most issues concerning Wiard i find it best to call him on the
> > phone and  work things out in a dialogue. i have an envelator with a
> > non-standard display and when i called Grant about it's special needs
> > , like power-supplies and critical spare parts, he took great pains
> > and spent lots of time making sure that not only my questions were
> > answered but that i grasped the big picture. This equipped me to
> > figure-out a lot of future issues on my own.
> > 
> >  In the early days of the 300 series, Grant neatly circumvented the
> > problem of matching of the module to it's power supply by selling
> > those large , very robust, Elpac pro-quality wall-warts ...one for
> > each module. So there was plenty of current-headroom on tap for
> > everybody in the rack. Sadly Elpac discontinued those redoubtable
gadgets.

> > and....arguably,  it was overkill , (and it made for a very crowded
> > power strip)  but it was a good ounce of prevention against a user who
> > powered 9 modules with a single 200ma supply and then held Wiard
> > liable for the scorched power-supply chassis.
> > 
> > avanti!
> > -doc
> > 
> > 
> > * but the commonality of the practice muddies the water by creating a
> > false conventional perception that current draw is a point rather than
> > a line (and a fairly wiggly one at that)
> >
>

--- In wiardgroup@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Chang" <gchang@...> wrote:
>
> 
> The bottom line is stability - even with power supplies operating
> within the specs of the necessary current draw of the modules in your
> system, the issue is really, "How stable do you want your oscillators
> to be?"
> 

Thanks Gary, I agree.

Beyond the issue of caution is quality and stability.

My small system has two Power supplies at the moment but I have
learned in other instruments that a divide and conquer approach is best.

TD

This discussion has occurred many times in the past.

If you look in past discussions, they will detail the legal and technical problems with 
publishing that kind of specification.

Put simply there are many measurements of current, peak, average, RMS.

The only way to be safe legally is to use NIST traceable instruments and that service is very 
expensive.

The method I recommend doesn't need any math, and is more practical. Connect a VCO 
first to the power supply, then add modules until the VCO starts to become unstable and 
remove one.

VCO stability is the first thing to be affected when the power supply is overloaded.

Wiard VCOs normally show stability of +/- 1 cent. As the supply gets overloaded, they will 
start to wander +/- 3 cents or worse. This is you best indicator, and the most important 
parameter in the system (to some people).

Other put Variacs on the supplies and reduce voltage to deliberately destabilize oscillators 
and make the whole system behave chaoticly, to my knowledge, this does no harm and is 
a kind of circuit bending without opening the covers.

The creative techniques this group originates continues to blow my mind.


--- In wiardgroup@yahoogroups.com, "Muff" <muff@...> wrote:
>
> Good to know, thanks!
> 
> It would be great if Grant or someone could provide some specs on each module 
estimating the amount of current they use. I know these aren't always absolute numbers 
though, perhaps that is part of the concern with posting them. 

> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: atonal <atonal@...>
> 
> Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 12:50:37 
> To: <wiardgroup@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [wiardgroup] Re: Power supply question
> 
> 
> 
> My six module system is nearly the same configuration as yours, with the 
> exception that I have a Waveform City instead of a Classic VCO.  As I 
> mentioned in my earlier post to Tommy, Grant measured the draw on my 
> system to be 475 mA with all LED's illuminated.  I would imagine that 
> your system will be in that general vicinity, which would mean that one 
> PS500 will be pretty close to capacity, with perhaps a bit of headroom. 
>   Grant also measured the draw on my New Controller to be 125 mA, which 
> is why he recommended a second power supply for maximum stability.
> 
> 
> 
> muffwiggler wrote:
> > Speaking of current draw, a couple of questions...
> > 
> > I've got a 6 module system on order with Grant which I'm expecting in 
> > a few months.  I have some unused Blacet PS500's that I'm planning to 
> > use, but I'm wondering if anyone has measured or knows the current 
> > draw of the various 300 series modules.  I have never come across 
> > this information anywhere, and I'd like to know if I can power my 6 
> > module rack (VCO, Wogglebug, Sequantizer, Borg I, Envelator, 
> > Mixolator) from one PS500.
> > 
> > I believe that Grant once said the 1200 Series JAGs pulled about 
> > 100ma each, and the joystick no more than 20.  So that would mean the 
> > New Controller would be pulling something like 240ma - almost half 
> > what a PS500 can manage.  I assume that's a lot more than any single 
> > 300 Series module.
> > 
> > John Blacet told me the PS500 is very conservatively rated and one 
> > can safely draw up to 550ma from it.
> > 
> > A second question - it seems the PS500 doesn't have the ground prong 
> > of its power inlet wired up.  I have quite a few of these supplies 
> > and they are all configured this way by Blacet.   I know the 300 
> > series has been designed to automatically provide star grounding, but 
> > does it not compromise this when the path to ground through the power 
> > inlet is not available?
> > 
> > thanks everyone
>

Well, I originally ordered a 3 module system, and Grant recommended 2
power supplies: 1 for the Wogglebug, and 1 for the Waveform City and
Borg Filters. I've since added an Omni Filter, and power it along with
the W/C and Borgs. The main reason being that the Wogglebug is
supplying almost all the control voltages to the system. And the VCO
is still plenty stable... Oh, these would both be the Elpack power
supplies...

-andrew bunny

From: "Grant Richter" <grichter@asapnet.net>
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 18:26:24 -0000
To: <wiardgroup@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [wiardgroup] Re: Power supply question

> One last question - is the fact that the PS500's power inlet ground lug is NOT wired up a > 
> concern for the 'built-in' star grounding the Wiard 300 modules employ?  The way these 
>PSU's ship there is no path to earth ground through them.

Underwriters Laboratory absolutely requires a hard earth ground to any surface that a person 
may come in contact with. This is to blow the circuit protector safely if a hot wire comes in 
contact with that surface. No one in their right mind will advise you to remove any earth 
grounds. They would be opening themselves to huge legal liability and possible criminal 
charges.

However, a recording studio built to this UL spec with all hard earth grounds will be unusable 
because of ground loops and tremendous hum problems. 

You have to read between the lines and figure it out for yourself. I can not advise you to take 
any action the may increase your risk of electrocution.

I do know the use of localized isolation transformers will isolate the hot conductor from the 
earth ground system. This may render the hard earth grounds unnecessary for electrocution 
protection. You will have to check applicable codes with local building inspectors.

From: "Grant Richter" <grichter@asapnet.net>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 03:33:08 -0000
To: <wiardgroup@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [wiardgroup] Re: Power supply question