Xpantastic!

Hi there,

I'm probably _NOT_ the only one in desperate need, but I'd really, really like to find one or two CEM3374 chips for my Matrix-12 project. I bought from a German guy, insisting everything in it is all right, but it turned out it had "quite a few" problems, among which:

- dead left output
- Midi Out and Thru terminals are quite badly corroded (!)
- at least one CEM3374 is gone, the second one is being tested today
- two CEM3372s are dead
- 13 push buttons are totally dead
- 4 of the rotary encoders are what I call beyond dead

All this with a "yez it'z a perffecktly funkzionink" Matrix-12. :-D Ok, it was relatively cheap and I could turn it into a 6-voice thingy, but that would destroy the profound essence of its beauty. But still I find it very tempting to drive a few kilometers and visit the guy with some ugly motorist friends of mine. 

(I know. Violence is _not_ an answer, an aggressive lawyer is. If anyone knows a good German-speaking lawyer, let me know. ;-D Thank goodness I saved all the seller's emails where he was insisting it was a perfectly good, like new.)

Also, I've noticed it has sometimes "a bit" trouble tuning itself, so I'm afraid there are quite a few logic chips malfunctioning as well. How, dear Xpantastic acquaintances, should I start troubleshooting my Matrix - other than doing chip-swapping, which is being done as we spe... write.

-Peter

--- In xpantastic@yahoogroups.com, "mursupeppe" <petri.alanko@...> wrote:
>
> Hi there,
> 
> I'm probably _NOT_ the only one in desperate need, but I'd really, really like to find one or two CEM3374 chips for my Matrix-12 project. I bought from a German guy, insisting everything in it is all right, but it turned out it had "quite a few" problems, among which:
> 
> - dead left output
> - Midi Out and Thru terminals are quite badly corroded (!)
> - at least one CEM3374 is gone, the second one is being tested today
> - two CEM3372s are dead
> - 13 push buttons are totally dead
> - 4 of the rotary encoders are what I call beyond dead
> 
> All this with a "yez it'z a perffecktly funkzionink" Matrix-12. :-D Ok, it was relatively cheap and I could turn it into a 6-voice thingy, but that would destroy the profound essence of its beauty. But still I find it very tempting to drive a few kilometers and visit the guy with some ugly motorist friends of mine. 
> 
> (I know. Violence is _not_ an answer, an aggressive lawyer is. If anyone knows a good German-speaking lawyer, let me know. ;-D Thank goodness I saved all the seller's emails where he was insisting it was a perfectly good, like new.)
> 
> Also, I've noticed it has sometimes "a bit" trouble tuning itself, so I'm afraid there are quite a few logic chips malfunctioning as well. How, dear Xpantastic acquaintances, should I start troubleshooting my Matrix - other than doing chip-swapping, which is being done as we spe... write.
> 
> -Peter
>

Ah yes I feel your anger I two am looking for voice chips, my xpander dropped a voice and is now only running on five. Luckily I got my seller to stump up the cash to fix it. I've always had trouble with big synths and always payed a bit too much...I did want a 12 originally but ended up with the Xpander?!?! Though I do love it. Also think power supply needs re-capping as its getting noisey?! Anyway after swapping chips and finding out which ones faulty by process of elimination I would contact a synth repairer, I realise it can be pricey but will usually avoid any major headaches..things like left output could be a simple dry joint and just need a new bit of solder, a real possibilty if its suffering from a bit of rust around the midi ports, they also are relitively simple to replace. I don't think I've ever heard of that many buttons being dead, could it possibly be a problem with the board or are the 13 dotted about all over the place?!? That could be better than replace all those buttons, also the rotarys would be time consuming. Things like these seem like they'll be easy to replace but can end up being a nightmare I had a simple pot to replace on a Prophet 5 and the nut had fused itself to the pot which meant if I had forced it I would have ripped it off the board. There are a few guys in the UK that deal with Oberheims and parts but...I know that most of them are fully booked for a while, they nearly always are. Wherabouts are you? Sorry I'm not of much help I'm sure someone else will chime in eventually!!

Sean

Sorry to hear this, you could at least name and shame the scammer?

I was offered a Matrix 12 recently from Germany...when I asked questions about sending photos of test screens he went dead on me...



-- In xpantastic@yahoogroups.com, "mursupeppe" <petri.alanko@...> wrote:

>
> Hi there,
> 
> I'm probably _NOT_ the only one in desperate need, but I'd really, really like to find one or two CEM3374 chips for my Matrix-12 project. I bought from a German guy, insisting everything in it is all right, but it turned out it had "quite a few" problems, among which:
> 
> - dead left output
> - Midi Out and Thru terminals are quite badly corroded (!)
> - at least one CEM3374 is gone, the second one is being tested today
> - two CEM3372s are dead
> - 13 push buttons are totally dead
> - 4 of the rotary encoders are what I call beyond dead
> 
> All this with a "yez it'z a perffecktly funkzionink" Matrix-12. :-D Ok, it was relatively cheap and I could turn it into a 6-voice thingy, but that would destroy the profound essence of its beauty. But still I find it very tempting to drive a few kilometers and visit the guy with some ugly motorist friends of mine. 
> 
> (I know. Violence is _not_ an answer, an aggressive lawyer is. If anyone knows a good German-speaking lawyer, let me know. ;-D Thank goodness I saved all the seller's emails where he was insisting it was a perfectly good, like new.)
> 
> Also, I've noticed it has sometimes "a bit" trouble tuning itself, so I'm afraid there are quite a few logic chips malfunctioning as well. How, dear Xpantastic acquaintances, should I start troubleshooting my Matrix - other than doing chip-swapping, which is being done as we spe... write.
> 
> -Peter
>

Well, I could, but I've been advised by a much wiser man to just give out a hint of his initials, which in turn resemble an old house music oriented Japanese thingy... ;-)

Yes, you guessed. I felt so let down and cheated that I actually had to find a German-speaking attorney-at-law. It's the principle: you just don't goddamn cheat your synth fellows and that's it. I'm not willing to part with my malfunctioning Matrix, I just want some of my helluvalotta euros back. 

Does anyone have any idea where to get a few keys for the keyboard and how to adjust the modulation levers? And where, oh, where, could I find a few oscillators? All hints are still welcome.

Of course I could go for a heavy route and strip the Matrix down, sell its parts and start looking for another. What do you think? Is anybody in need of parts? :-)

-P.

--- In xpantastic@yahoogroups.com, "eggwheatis" <phil@...> wrote:

>
> Sorry to hear this, you could at least name and shame the scammer?
> 
> I was offered a Matrix 12 recently from Germany...when I asked questions about sending photos of test screens he went dead on me...
> 
> 
> 
> -- In xpantastic@yahoogroups.com, "mursupeppe" <petri.alanko@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi there,
> > 
> > I'm probably _NOT_ the only one in desperate need, but I'd really, really like to find one or two CEM3374 chips for my Matrix-12 project. I bought from a German guy, insisting everything in it is all right, but it turned out it had "quite a few" problems, among which:
> > 
> > - dead left output
> > - Midi Out and Thru terminals are quite badly corroded (!)
> > - at least one CEM3374 is gone, the second one is being tested today
> > - two CEM3372s are dead
> > - 13 push buttons are totally dead
> > - 4 of the rotary encoders are what I call beyond dead
> > 
> > All this with a "yez it'z a perffecktly funkzionink" Matrix-12. :-D Ok, it was relatively cheap and I could turn it into a 6-voice thingy, but that would destroy the profound essence of its beauty. But still I find it very tempting to drive a few kilometers and visit the guy with some ugly motorist friends of mine. 
> > 
> > (I know. Violence is _not_ an answer, an aggressive lawyer is. If anyone knows a good German-speaking lawyer, let me know. ;-D Thank goodness I saved all the seller's emails where he was insisting it was a perfectly good, like new.)
> > 
> > Also, I've noticed it has sometimes "a bit" trouble tuning itself, so I'm afraid there are quite a few logic chips malfunctioning as well. How, dear Xpantastic acquaintances, should I start troubleshooting my Matrix - other than doing chip-swapping, which is being done as we spe... write.
> > 
> > -Peter
> >
>

--- In xpantastic@yahoogroups.com, "mursupeppe" <petri.alanko@...> wrote:
>
> Well, I could, but I've been advised by a much wiser man to just give out a hint of his initials, which in turn resemble an old house music oriented Japanese thingy... ;-)
> 
> Yes, you guessed. I felt so let down and cheated that I actually had to find a German-speaking attorney-at-law. It's the principle: you just don't goddamn cheat your synth fellows and that's it. I'm not willing to part with my malfunctioning Matrix, I just want some of my helluvalotta euros back. 
> 
> Does anyone have any idea where to get a few keys for the keyboard and how to adjust the modulation levers? And where, oh, where, could I find a few oscillators? All hints are still welcome.
> 
> Of course I could go for a heavy route and strip the Matrix down, sell its parts and start looking for another. What do you think? Is anybody in need of parts? :-)
> 
> -P.
> 
> --- In xpantastic@yahoogroups.com, "eggwheatis" <phil@> wrote:
> >
> > Sorry to hear this, you could at least name and shame the scammer?
> > 
> > I was offered a Matrix 12 recently from Germany...when I asked questions about sending photos of test screens he went dead on me...
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -- In xpantastic@yahoogroups.com, "mursupeppe" <petri.alanko@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi there,
> > > 
> > > I'm probably _NOT_ the only one in desperate need, but I'd really, really like to find one or two CEM3374 chips for my Matrix-12 project. I bought from a German guy, insisting everything in it is all right, but it turned out it had "quite a few" problems, among which:
> > > 
> > > - dead left output
> > > - Midi Out and Thru terminals are quite badly corroded (!)
> > > - at least one CEM3374 is gone, the second one is being tested today
> > > - two CEM3372s are dead
> > > - 13 push buttons are totally dead
> > > - 4 of the rotary encoders are what I call beyond dead
> > > 
> > > All this with a "yez it'z a perffecktly funkzionink" Matrix-12. :-D Ok, it was relatively cheap and I could turn it into a 6-voice thingy, but that would destroy the profound essence of its beauty. But still I find it very tempting to drive a few kilometers and visit the guy with some ugly motorist friends of mine. 
> > > 
> > > (I know. Violence is _not_ an answer, an aggressive lawyer is. If anyone knows a good German-speaking lawyer, let me know. ;-D Thank goodness I saved all the seller's emails where he was insisting it was a perfectly good, like new.)
> > > 
> > > Also, I've noticed it has sometimes "a bit" trouble tuning itself, so I'm afraid there are quite a few logic chips malfunctioning as well. How, dear Xpantastic acquaintances, should I start troubleshooting my Matrix - other than doing chip-swapping, which is being done as we spe... write.
> > > 
> > > -Peter
> > >
> >
>

I am in need of parts however I wouldn't want you to strip down yours, I think yours is worth rescuing perhaps unfortunately not for you but definately for someone. I would maybe try and re-coup some money from this ass and in the mean time stick it up on ebay or the like with all the problems listed and a buy it now price that doesn't do to much damage to your pocket. You might be surprised what you get for it. Alternatively you could try and do it yourself I'm sure it would be satisfying in the end plus you get to know a synth inside out and it's weakness's as you could end up with another dud. I've felt really had a few times when I've bought synths, it's really not a pleasent feeling. Goodluck with whatever you decide I hope it goes well, keep us posted would be nice to hear a happy ending to the story.

Sean

Hi,

Try:

http://www.vintageplanet.nl

http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/xpantastic/msearch?query=cem3374&charset=windows-1252

And, follow www.ebay.com, www.ebay.co.uk, www.ebay.de, www.ebay.nl, www.ebay.jp etc. It may take months to find this chip, but you never know...

Good luck!

Hi and thanks for the links.

I happen to know the deep mud I'm in and so I just recently bought two Xpanders (one beyond repairs, the other should be fine), just to find out whether there's anything worth scavenging. Again, I'll let you know if and what.

> Up to now, I never had a blown 3374 in my Xpander,- but I´m on the 
> waitlist for 3374 @vintage planet for years and like many others are.
> CEM3372 are much easier to find.

I've heard people tell this about their 3374s, but after cross-checking I really have to admit that one of them is really broken. The other one's outputting triangle wave minor third higher than expected, so I cannot count that as "gone", not yet, at least. Something else could be wrong as well, but we're still doing testing and concentrating on the physical issues.

> The case:
> Buying vintage gear @ebay, you always buy "private" and because of being 
> "vintage" w/ no warranty and no return.
> You agree on this if you bid !

It didn't go like that.

I first asked a few questions very carefully, as I wasn't on the holy pony for the first time. I've owned quite a few analog synths in my past and know what they can be like. Finding a pristine - mint, whatever - thing is about as rare as waking up in Mars. Nag nag, yadda yadda, boo hoo... (cont'd)

> If someone is doing this, he should be prepared for issues unless it´s 
> made evident the item is in working condition electronically (!!!).

(cont'd)...which is what I was _told_, literally: "in 100% working condition". 

> But there´s no guarantee w/ vintage gear, (tack)-switches and pots will 
> be without issues or the unit won´t blow up the next time you power it 
> up after arrival.

I've got a few analog modulars that are about as moody as a difficult teenager after two beers. I have a faint feeling the behaviour you just described is remotely familiar. I just wouldn't sell any of those as "trouble-free" or "perfectly functioning". :-D

I'm not too keen on opening the case any more than this. What's my problem shouldn't poison the rest of you, even though I was the cat that brought the carcass in. Sorry for bad feelings, everyone, but I'll keep the lid on from now on. 

> Refurbishing a Xpander or a Matrix-12 means a big time investment in 
> search for all the available parts, investing money for the parts and 
> doing all the work yourself if you have the technical skills and own the 
> tools necessary.

Well, I'm relatively good at troubleshooting, the other guys do the dirty work since I'm about as handy as a paralyzed baboon could ever be. I'm pretty confident we'll sort this out with some amount of time. And money. Argh. :-/ 

The goal is no longer to refurbish, but reconstruct and improve, I'd say. See (x) below.

> Noone can expect to buy a piece of gear which cost over 10.000.- bucks 
> in the past for 2.000 - 3.000 $ now and it´s like new,- that´s stupid.

That wasn't the price I paid, not even close, I happened to pay quite a lot more. Obviously, though, you're talking "in general" and not probably referring to this case, but I'll agree with you completely.

> The manufacturing of dyno-synths like Matrix-12 and Prophet 10 / T-8 
> killed small companies like Oberheim and Sequential in the past because 
> of the costs and the sales.

I'd say we could blame DX7 and D50 at least partially for that. Them and the evolution of pop taste. 

> These are the CEM3374, the rotarys and the displays.
> Also, I´m not sure about the switches and numeric key pad.
> Actually, I doubt the display replacement of Steve Lenham will appear 
> near future.

(x) Newsflash! The keyboard tech replaced every rotary pot with a similar part and all he had to do was reverse the connection as the spare parts weren't identical to originals. The result: they all work now. If anyone needs further info, let me know and I'll ask dirty details. The feel is similar, but a bit quieter. No more "tr.. tr.. rrr... RRRrrr" whilst editing. The bonus: the pots have a switch built-in, so one could override the push buttons under the display as well if wanted and replace them with a nice led thingy or... never mind. :-)

He was also pretty confident he could replace the displays with an updated part of sorts, but it would lose the "Xpander/Matrix" style. Instead, it would be and LCD (if I remember correctly) and black/white. Again, don't blame me for not asking details before writing.

(Waiting for a FrankenMatrix to resurrect.)

> Switches and rotarys as well as displays are 2nd row IMO,- the 
> workaround is to use bankloader and editing software to use a 
> electronically working machine in the studio.

I agree, my approach is because of my personal preferences: I like to "feel" the synth.

> b.t.w.,- if someone needs processors for Xpander/Matrix-12,- you´ll find 
> ´em in Matrix-1000s (and eventually Matrix-6,- I´m not sure).

As far as I know, there are six CEM3396 IC chips inside. I don't remember Xpander using those - is there something I should know?

> >>


mursupeppe schrieb:
>
>
>  I've heard people tell this about their 3374s, but after
>  cross-checking I really have to admit that one of them is really
>  broken. The other one's outputting triangle wave minor third higher
>  than expected, so I cannot count that as "gone", not yet, at least.
>  Something else could be wrong as well, but we're still doing testing
>  and concentrating on the physical issues.

Because this is related to the voiceboards, I\ufffdd 1st recap \ufffdem,- it\ufffds 70 
caps to replace.
Check the PSU too for stability, caps, diode.


>  (cont'd)...which is what I was _told_, literally: "in 100% working
>  condition".

Yes, I\ufffdm sure you asked a lot,- but "privat, no guarantee, no return" 
means you agree on this if you bid and buy and this is all which counts 
in a case.
So, I dt see you\ufffdll get any money back and it\ufffds sad I have to say it 
this way.

I just wouldn't sell any of
>  those as "trouble-free" or "perfectly functioning". :-D

Yep,- that\ufffds nice to read from you and be sure I myself won\ufffdt too,- but 
there are many other human beings around, you know.

I myself I have no real issues up to now even I toured w/ my Xpander 
over europe, north africa and eastern block/black sea in the 80th/90th.
Actually I don\ufffdt plan to sell it, but try to beware it from more issues 
as it has actually, which is some switches, one of the pushbuttons of 
the numeric keypad and 2 rotarys which eventually only need a cleaning job.
But I also buyed some parts to have \ufffdem in stock,- a matched set of 
CEM3372 signal generators and I got 100 caps to replace the 70 needed 
for the voiceboards before it shows issues.

I'm pretty confident we'll sort this out with some amount of
>  time. And money. Argh. :-/

Be sure, you\ufffdre not alone and I feel w/ you.


Obviously, though, you're talking "in general" and not
>  probably referring to this case,

absolutely !

but I'll agree with you completely.

thx a lot.


>  I'd say we could blame DX7 and D50 at least partially for that. Them
>  and the evolution of pop taste.

I cannot blame a DX/TX or D50 (D550) in any way,- I own both in addition 
and I\ufffdve found out in countless studiosessions, a Xpander plus a DX is a 
great combo,- also for layering stuff.
The D50/550 is a different beast, but one of the Roland synths worth to 
keep, especially if you have a Musitrinics speed kit w/ memory expansion 
built in.

>  (x) Newsflash! The keyboard tech replaced every rotary pot with a
>  similar part and all he had to do was reverse the connection as the
>  spare parts weren't identical to originals. The result: they all work
>  now. If anyone needs further info, let me know and I'll ask dirty
>  details. The feel is similar, but a bit quieter. No more "tr.. tr..
>  rrr... RRRrrr" whilst editing. The bonus: the pots have a switch
>  built-in, so one could override the push buttons under the display as
>  well if wanted and replace them with a nice led thingy or... never
>  mind. :-)

Oh,- that\ufffds a very interesting info,- may I ask for more details and 
type/specs of this rotary replacements as well as instructions for 
replacing ?

>  He was also pretty confident he could replace the displays with an
>  updated part of sorts, but it would lose the "Xpander/Matrix" style.
>  Instead, it would be and LCD (if I remember correctly) and
>  black/white. Again, don't blame me for not asking details before
>  writing.

Any details would be pretty welcome if possible.


>  I agree, my approach is because of my personal preferences: I like to
>  "feel" the synth.

No question, that\ufffds anyones preference, also mine.
That\ufffds why I called using software a workaround.
The machine is not unusable w/ malfunctioning switches and pots this way 
and until recovery is reality.
>
> > b.t.w.,- if someone needs processors for Xpander/Matrix-12,- you\ufffdll
> > find \ufffdem in Matrix-1000s (and eventually Matrix-6,- I\ufffdm not sure).
>
>  As far as I know, there are six CEM3396 IC chips inside. I don't
>  remember Xpander using those - is there something I should know?

Don\ufffdt misunderstand processor and chip.
The IBM processors used in a Xpander /Matrix-12 are also rare.
THIS is what you find also in a Matrix 1000.
Thanks Karl, now I know it and keep my Matrix-1000.

It was just only a example of searching and finding cheaper synths to 
pull components for the expensive flagships.
So, there\ufffds not always a need to buy a 2nd identical model of a damaged 
synth for parts,- but this still depends on the wanted part(s).

I didn\ufffdt investigate up to now, but I\ufffdm sure there were other synths of 
other manufacturers using CEM3374 as OSCs.

Maybe this is a chance to look for if this type of chip is urgently needed.

Hi All,
That Rotory Encoader Up/Grade fix sounds really interesting.
Yes, Please post all the gory details. Also please do post any 
Failure / Fix you come across. I am constantly keeping a list of 
Fixes. I compile them and post it from time to time. 
If it's OK with the moderator I'll put it in the database.

- Karl  



--- In xpantastic@yahoogroups.com, "mursupeppe" <petri.alanko@...> wrote:

>
> Hi and thanks for the links.
> 
> I happen to know the deep mud I'm in and so I just recently bought two Xpanders (one beyond repairs, the other should be fine), just to find out whether there's anything worth scavenging. Again, I'll let you know if and what.
> 
> > Up to now, I never had a blown 3374 in my Xpander,- but I´m on the 
> > waitlist for 3374 @vintage planet for years and like many others are.
> > CEM3372 are much easier to find.
> 
> I've heard people tell this about their 3374s, but after cross-checking I really have to admit that one of them is really broken. The other one's outputting triangle wave minor third higher than expected, so I cannot count that as "gone", not yet, at least. Something else could be wrong as well, but we're still doing testing and concentrating on the physical issues.
> 
> > The case:
> > Buying vintage gear @ebay, you always buy "private" and because of being 
> > "vintage" w/ no warranty and no return.
> > You agree on this if you bid !
> 
> It didn't go like that.
> 
> I first asked a few questions very carefully, as I wasn't on the holy pony for the first time. I've owned quite a few analog synths in my past and know what they can be like. Finding a pristine - mint, whatever - thing is about as rare as waking up in Mars. Nag nag, yadda yadda, boo hoo... (cont'd)
> 
> > If someone is doing this, he should be prepared for issues unless it´s 
> > made evident the item is in working condition electronically (!!!).
> 
> (cont'd)...which is what I was _told_, literally: "in 100% working condition". 
> 
> > But there´s no guarantee w/ vintage gear, (tack)-switches and pots will 
> > be without issues or the unit won´t blow up the next time you power it 
> > up after arrival.
> 
> I've got a few analog modulars that are about as moody as a difficult teenager after two beers. I have a faint feeling the behaviour you just described is remotely familiar. I just wouldn't sell any of those as "trouble-free" or "perfectly functioning". :-D
> 
> I'm not too keen on opening the case any more than this. What's my problem shouldn't poison the rest of you, even though I was the cat that brought the carcass in. Sorry for bad feelings, everyone, but I'll keep the lid on from now on. 
> 
> > Refurbishing a Xpander or a Matrix-12 means a big time investment in 
> > search for all the available parts, investing money for the parts and 
> > doing all the work yourself if you have the technical skills and own the 
> > tools necessary.
> 
> Well, I'm relatively good at troubleshooting, the other guys do the dirty work since I'm about as handy as a paralyzed baboon could ever be. I'm pretty confident we'll sort this out with some amount of time. And money. Argh. :-/ 
> 
> The goal is no longer to refurbish, but reconstruct and improve, I'd say. See (x) below.
> 
> > Noone can expect to buy a piece of gear which cost over 10.000.- bucks 
> > in the past for 2.000 - 3.000 $ now and it´s like new,- that´s stupid.
> 
> That wasn't the price I paid, not even close, I happened to pay quite a lot more. Obviously, though, you're talking "in general" and not probably referring to this case, but I'll agree with you completely.
> 
> > The manufacturing of dyno-synths like Matrix-12 and Prophet 10 / T-8 
> > killed small companies like Oberheim and Sequential in the past because 
> > of the costs and the sales.
> 
> I'd say we could blame DX7 and D50 at least partially for that. Them and the evolution of pop taste. 
> 
> > These are the CEM3374, the rotarys and the displays.
> > Also, I´m not sure about the switches and numeric key pad.
> > Actually, I doubt the display replacement of Steve Lenham will appear 
> > near future.
> 
> (x) Newsflash! The keyboard tech replaced every rotary pot with a similar part and all he had to do was reverse the connection as the spare parts weren't identical to originals. The result: they all work now. If anyone needs further info, let me know and I'll ask dirty details. The feel is similar, but a bit quieter. No more "tr.. tr.. rrr... RRRrrr" whilst editing. The bonus: the pots have a switch built-in, so one could override the push buttons under the display as well if wanted and replace them with a nice led thingy or... never mind. :-)
> 
> He was also pretty confident he could replace the displays with an updated part of sorts, but it would lose the "Xpander/Matrix" style. Instead, it would be and LCD (if I remember correctly) and black/white. Again, don't blame me for not asking details before writing.
> 
> (Waiting for a FrankenMatrix to resurrect.)
> 
> > Switches and rotarys as well as displays are 2nd row IMO,- the 
> > workaround is to use bankloader and editing software to use a 
> > electronically working machine in the studio.
> 
> I agree, my approach is because of my personal preferences: I like to "feel" the synth.
> 
> > b.t.w.,- if someone needs processors for Xpander/Matrix-12,- you´ll find 
> > ´em in Matrix-1000s (and eventually Matrix-6,- I´m not sure).
> 
> As far as I know, there are six CEM3396 IC chips inside. I don't remember Xpander using those - is there something I should know?
>

Ciao!

To tell you my experience, I have been able to find all of these, i.e., buttons, a very few CEM3374's at the eBay and even a 'new' unused Xpander display! So it is not absolutely impossible. Rotary encoders can be replaced and there is a replacing display unit about on the market. As far as I know, buttons, displays, encoders and especially the 3374's has been sold out during the last few years, but you may still find single or more components at eBay, if you follow it regularly enough. Searching any of the components on this forum, will give you some more hints. As has been told, however, the quickest way to get spare parts is to buy a broken Xpander or Matrix-12.

Tiitu

I'm not a Moderator but I certainly would welcome a list of fixes. I plan to keep my Xpander going for as long as possible and I'm a firm believer that it's not all doom and gloom when it comes to fixing these things. I really think its worth trying everything to fix before stripping a machine or cannibalising another. They are starting to get rare and it's a responsibility you take on when you buy these machines to keep them going I feel (thats the way I felt)...obviously thats not the case in reality, but I didn't buy a cs-80 when I could have because I didn't think I could keep up the maintenance costs if something did go wrong. There are plenty of people out there who have more than a passing interest in these machines and I think there will always be someone out there who's far more technically minded than me that will work out a fix and thank god for them.



--- In xpantastic@yahoogroups.com, "shire03@..." <shire03@...> wrote:

>
> Hi All,
> That Rotory Encoader Up/Grade fix sounds really interesting.
> Yes, Please post all the gory details. Also please do post any 
> Failure / Fix you come across. I am constantly keeping a list of 
> Fixes. I compile them and post it from time to time. 
> If it's OK with the moderator I'll put it in the database.
> 
> - Karl  
> 
> 
> 
> --- In xpantastic@yahoogroups.com, "mursupeppe" <petri.alanko@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi and thanks for the links.
> > 
> > I happen to know the deep mud I'm in and so I just recently bought two Xpanders (one beyond repairs, the other should be fine), just to find out whether there's anything worth scavenging. Again, I'll let you know if and what.
> > 
> > > Up to now, I never had a blown 3374 in my Xpander,- but I´m on the 
> > > waitlist for 3374 @vintage planet for years and like many others are.
> > > CEM3372 are much easier to find.
> > 
> > I've heard people tell this about their 3374s, but after cross-checking I really have to admit that one of them is really broken. The other one's outputting triangle wave minor third higher than expected, so I cannot count that as "gone", not yet, at least. Something else could be wrong as well, but we're still doing testing and concentrating on the physical issues.
> > 
> > > The case:
> > > Buying vintage gear @ebay, you always buy "private" and because of being 
> > > "vintage" w/ no warranty and no return.
> > > You agree on this if you bid !
> > 
> > It didn't go like that.
> > 
> > I first asked a few questions very carefully, as I wasn't on the holy pony for the first time. I've owned quite a few analog synths in my past and know what they can be like. Finding a pristine - mint, whatever - thing is about as rare as waking up in Mars. Nag nag, yadda yadda, boo hoo... (cont'd)
> > 
> > > If someone is doing this, he should be prepared for issues unless it´s 
> > > made evident the item is in working condition electronically (!!!).
> > 
> > (cont'd)...which is what I was _told_, literally: "in 100% working condition". 
> > 
> > > But there´s no guarantee w/ vintage gear, (tack)-switches and pots will 
> > > be without issues or the unit won´t blow up the next time you power it 
> > > up after arrival.
> > 
> > I've got a few analog modulars that are about as moody as a difficult teenager after two beers. I have a faint feeling the behaviour you just described is remotely familiar. I just wouldn't sell any of those as "trouble-free" or "perfectly functioning". :-D
> > 
> > I'm not too keen on opening the case any more than this. What's my problem shouldn't poison the rest of you, even though I was the cat that brought the carcass in. Sorry for bad feelings, everyone, but I'll keep the lid on from now on. 
> > 
> > > Refurbishing a Xpander or a Matrix-12 means a big time investment in 
> > > search for all the available parts, investing money for the parts and 
> > > doing all the work yourself if you have the technical skills and own the 
> > > tools necessary.
> > 
> > Well, I'm relatively good at troubleshooting, the other guys do the dirty work since I'm about as handy as a paralyzed baboon could ever be. I'm pretty confident we'll sort this out with some amount of time. And money. Argh. :-/ 
> > 
> > The goal is no longer to refurbish, but reconstruct and improve, I'd say. See (x) below.
> > 
> > > Noone can expect to buy a piece of gear which cost over 10.000.- bucks 
> > > in the past for 2.000 - 3.000 $ now and it´s like new,- that´s stupid.
> > 
> > That wasn't the price I paid, not even close, I happened to pay quite a lot more. Obviously, though, you're talking "in general" and not probably referring to this case, but I'll agree with you completely.
> > 
> > > The manufacturing of dyno-synths like Matrix-12 and Prophet 10 / T-8 
> > > killed small companies like Oberheim and Sequential in the past because 
> > > of the costs and the sales.
> > 
> > I'd say we could blame DX7 and D50 at least partially for that. Them and the evolution of pop taste. 
> > 
> > > These are the CEM3374, the rotarys and the displays.
> > > Also, I´m not sure about the switches and numeric key pad.
> > > Actually, I doubt the display replacement of Steve Lenham will appear 
> > > near future.
> > 
> > (x) Newsflash! The keyboard tech replaced every rotary pot with a similar part and all he had to do was reverse the connection as the spare parts weren't identical to originals. The result: they all work now. If anyone needs further info, let me know and I'll ask dirty details. The feel is similar, but a bit quieter. No more "tr.. tr.. rrr... RRRrrr" whilst editing. The bonus: the pots have a switch built-in, so one could override the push buttons under the display as well if wanted and replace them with a nice led thingy or... never mind. :-)
> > 
> > He was also pretty confident he could replace the displays with an updated part of sorts, but it would lose the "Xpander/Matrix" style. Instead, it would be and LCD (if I remember correctly) and black/white. Again, don't blame me for not asking details before writing.
> > 
> > (Waiting for a FrankenMatrix to resurrect.)
> > 
> > > Switches and rotarys as well as displays are 2nd row IMO,- the 
> > > workaround is to use bankloader and editing software to use a 
> > > electronically working machine in the studio.
> > 
> > I agree, my approach is because of my personal preferences: I like to "feel" the synth.
> > 
> > > b.t.w.,- if someone needs processors for Xpander/Matrix-12,- you´ll find 
> > > ´em in Matrix-1000s (and eventually Matrix-6,- I´m not sure).
> > 
> > As far as I know, there are six CEM3396 IC chips inside. I don't remember Xpander using those - is there something I should know?
> >
>

Please, check the following pages and feel free to add there new information relateted to Xpander and Matrix-12:

http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/xpantastic/files/
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/xpantastic/links

Tiitu

My tech fella, Mr. Mikko Köykkä replied as follows:

---
Electrically any 2-bit binary encoder should work. Recommended
resolution is 20 - 30 pulses per turn to preserve the original touch
of the knobs. Encoder wiring may vary, so you may need to cross-wire
pins 1 and 3.

Shaft diameter is 6 mm and minimum length measured from the PCB bottom
12 mm. Holes on the Matrix-12 board are slightly too big for
replacement encoders, so it's important to use a suitable washer and
an extra sleeve that fills the gap nicely. Also it may be necessary to
drill a small guide hole just above the big hole to make encoders fit
perfectly.

http://www.its-like-that.com/radiokorjaamo/encoder1.jpg
http://www.its-like-that.com/radiokorjaamo/encoder2.jpg
http://www.its-like-that.com/radiokorjaamo/encoder3.jpg
---

Honestly, I'd let him operate my guts as well. :-D

-P.

--- In xpantastic@yahoogroups.com, "shire03@..." <shire03@...> wrote:

>
> Hi All,
> That Rotory Encoader Up/Grade fix sounds really interesting.
> Yes, Please post all the gory details. Also please do post any 
> Failure / Fix you come across. I am constantly keeping a list of 
> Fixes. I compile them and post it from time to time. 
> If it's OK with the moderator I'll put it in the database.
> 
> - Karl  
> 
> 
> 
> --- In xpantastic@yahoogroups.com, "mursupeppe" <petri.alanko@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi and thanks for the links.
> > 
> > I happen to know the deep mud I'm in and so I just recently bought two Xpanders (one beyond repairs, the other should be fine), just to find out whether there's anything worth scavenging. Again, I'll let you know if and what.
> > 
> > > Up to now, I never had a blown 3374 in my Xpander,- but I´m on the 
> > > waitlist for 3374 @vintage planet for years and like many others are.
> > > CEM3372 are much easier to find.
> > 
> > I've heard people tell this about their 3374s, but after cross-checking I really have to admit that one of them is really broken. The other one's outputting triangle wave minor third higher than expected, so I cannot count that as "gone", not yet, at least. Something else could be wrong as well, but we're still doing testing and concentrating on the physical issues.
> > 
> > > The case:
> > > Buying vintage gear @ebay, you always buy "private" and because of being 
> > > "vintage" w/ no warranty and no return.
> > > You agree on this if you bid !
> > 
> > It didn't go like that.
> > 
> > I first asked a few questions very carefully, as I wasn't on the holy pony for the first time. I've owned quite a few analog synths in my past and know what they can be like. Finding a pristine - mint, whatever - thing is about as rare as waking up in Mars. Nag nag, yadda yadda, boo hoo... (cont'd)
> > 
> > > If someone is doing this, he should be prepared for issues unless it´s 
> > > made evident the item is in working condition electronically (!!!).
> > 
> > (cont'd)...which is what I was _told_, literally: "in 100% working condition". 
> > 
> > > But there´s no guarantee w/ vintage gear, (tack)-switches and pots will 
> > > be without issues or the unit won´t blow up the next time you power it 
> > > up after arrival.
> > 
> > I've got a few analog modulars that are about as moody as a difficult teenager after two beers. I have a faint feeling the behaviour you just described is remotely familiar. I just wouldn't sell any of those as "trouble-free" or "perfectly functioning". :-D
> > 
> > I'm not too keen on opening the case any more than this. What's my problem shouldn't poison the rest of you, even though I was the cat that brought the carcass in. Sorry for bad feelings, everyone, but I'll keep the lid on from now on. 
> > 
> > > Refurbishing a Xpander or a Matrix-12 means a big time investment in 
> > > search for all the available parts, investing money for the parts and 
> > > doing all the work yourself if you have the technical skills and own the 
> > > tools necessary.
> > 
> > Well, I'm relatively good at troubleshooting, the other guys do the dirty work since I'm about as handy as a paralyzed baboon could ever be. I'm pretty confident we'll sort this out with some amount of time. And money. Argh. :-/ 
> > 
> > The goal is no longer to refurbish, but reconstruct and improve, I'd say. See (x) below.
> > 
> > > Noone can expect to buy a piece of gear which cost over 10.000.- bucks 
> > > in the past for 2.000 - 3.000 $ now and it´s like new,- that´s stupid.
> > 
> > That wasn't the price I paid, not even close, I happened to pay quite a lot more. Obviously, though, you're talking "in general" and not probably referring to this case, but I'll agree with you completely.
> > 
> > > The manufacturing of dyno-synths like Matrix-12 and Prophet 10 / T-8 
> > > killed small companies like Oberheim and Sequential in the past because 
> > > of the costs and the sales.
> > 
> > I'd say we could blame DX7 and D50 at least partially for that. Them and the evolution of pop taste. 
> > 
> > > These are the CEM3374, the rotarys and the displays.
> > > Also, I´m not sure about the switches and numeric key pad.
> > > Actually, I doubt the display replacement of Steve Lenham will appear 
> > > near future.
> > 
> > (x) Newsflash! The keyboard tech replaced every rotary pot with a similar part and all he had to do was reverse the connection as the spare parts weren't identical to originals. The result: they all work now. If anyone needs further info, let me know and I'll ask dirty details. The feel is similar, but a bit quieter. No more "tr.. tr.. rrr... RRRrrr" whilst editing. The bonus: the pots have a switch built-in, so one could override the push buttons under the display as well if wanted and replace them with a nice led thingy or... never mind. :-)
> > 
> > He was also pretty confident he could replace the displays with an updated part of sorts, but it would lose the "Xpander/Matrix" style. Instead, it would be and LCD (if I remember correctly) and black/white. Again, don't blame me for not asking details before writing.
> > 
> > (Waiting for a FrankenMatrix to resurrect.)
> > 
> > > Switches and rotarys as well as displays are 2nd row IMO,- the 
> > > workaround is to use bankloader and editing software to use a 
> > > electronically working machine in the studio.
> > 
> > I agree, my approach is because of my personal preferences: I like to "feel" the synth.
> > 
> > > b.t.w.,- if someone needs processors for Xpander/Matrix-12,- you´ll find 
> > > ´em in Matrix-1000s (and eventually Matrix-6,- I´m not sure).
> > 
> > As far as I know, there are six CEM3396 IC chips inside. I don't remember Xpander using those - is there something I should know?
> >
>

And, quite previously:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180405182514&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT#ht_500wt_870

There were actually two auctions recently for NOS 3374s and 3372s...for quite cheap too.. not to rub that in anyone's face, but just to point out that they are out there!