[sdiy] Thoughts on drum synth

[Theo]

Layering samples may help, change the mix depending on velocity or the place
where the drum is (supposedly) hit.
Though I like the results with snare and cymbals better than with bass.
For example when mixing ride with ride-bell, you can "walk" across the
cymbal.

Alternating between two close but different sounds also works ok.
I often use two detuned versions of one snare sample when playing rolls, one
for each stick.
Stir with the above mix two samples trick and the sound changes each hit.
With kick drums I usually use 2 or 3 kicks and alternate between them.
Then there is always the option to use a filter to bring some live in the
sound.

I don't care if a sound is "exactly" like the real thing as a bare sound, as
long it is convincing in the mix its ok with me.
A little careful programming both in timing (no quantizing!) as in varying
the sounds can be quite convincing.
At some point I got our drummer in "violent mode" (well, suppose that's not
too hard, hitting things is their mission in live ;) )
The drummer boy in question was convinced I was working with a other drummer
behind his back.
He would just not believe  that what he heard on the tapes was a HR16.
If I can do that on a HR16 then anybody with a sampler or a more modern drum
machine should be able to do it better.

However I hate sampled synth (bass)drums, the mix and alternating tricks
don't seem to work ok on those.

Theo



From: Tim Ressel <madhun2001 at yahoo.com>

> The problem I have with with Sampled sounds is they
> never change! One of my pet peeves is a clap-track
> that is sampled. Drives me nutz! But thats just me...
>
> Truth is: even a kick drum, which is being hit in the
> same place each time, can sound different depending on
> how hard its hit. And other factors I'm sure.
>
> --TR
>
> --- harry <harrybissell at prodigy.net> wrote:
> > Hey... I started this mess  ;^)
> >
> > I was using a sampled "kick drum"... which I might
> > add is a great sounding
> > kick drum.  I'm all for using sampled drums
> > because...
> >
> > 1) only a really GOOD kick drum sounds really
> > good... like the one they futzed
> > with for hours before getting the sample.
> >
> > 2) most LIVE kick drums sound really bad... very few
> > drummers know how to
> > maintain their equipment, unfortunatly.  If you are
> > NOT one of those... my
> > apologies
> > in advance... but you KNOW you are a rare breed,
> > indeed.
> >
> > 3) most LIVE kick drums come with a live kick
> > drummer... who will kick as hard
> > as he/she/it can.  It is agreed that most drums
> > sound best when you hit them hard.
> >
> > Of course its also helpful to hit them at the right
> > time.  I once had a drummer
> > who
> > got cut off at the bar... the Coffeebar...
> > "Hey... this expresso is not for the DRUMMER is it
> > ???"   ;^P   <truth!>
> >
> > 4) The SPL of that kick drum will get my act fired
> > from the coffeehouses I play
> > in...
> > so I use a sampled drum.
> >
> > I like the idea of synthesized (analog) drums. I
> > want the somewhat "lower-fi"
> > sound.
> > I've done the "twin-t" method and its OK... I want a
> > little more.
> >
> > Any opinions on the "sound" of some approaches such
> > as the various Rol at nd units?
> > Any favorites ?   Ones not to waste time on ?
> >
> > H^) harry
> >
> > ps: I'd be up for a percussion model project as
> > suggested
> >
> > matti wrote:
> >
> > > The conversations has been had a million times
> > before, and it will be mad
> > > a million times again. Don't use synthesizers to
> > do a kickdrum's job. If
> > > you want a kickdrum, use a kickdrum.
> > >
> > > If, however, you're using a kickdrum as a model
> > for synthesis, that's all
> > > good. Use The synthesizer's strong points. Just
> > like You use the kickdrum
> > > for low pitched, cutting, pulsing sounds. A lot of
> > this has to do with the
> > > interface of the drum, as it controls the
> > generation of the sounds. If
> > > someone makes a module similar to what we're
> > talking about and leaves all
> > > patches at the front panel, modular patchability
> > should be exploited. And
> > > so on.
> > >
> > > enjoy
> > >
> > > On Sun, 31 Mar 2002, Peter Grenader wrote:
> > >
> > > > I am very impressed with these figures,
> > especially the mode information from
> > > > Tim.  It really is great that you guys have such
> > knowledge. Very impressive.
> > > >
> > > > I think though that the answer, the sucessful
> > implimentation will lie in a
> > > > balance of the left and right brain lobe. The
> > 'left 'in this analogy being
> > > > the synthesis of the physics behind the sound,
> > the 'right' being in the end
> > > > it will come down to tweeks by ear.
> > > >
> > > > My suspicion is if even if the
> > harmonic/amplitude ratios could be executed
> > > > fathfully via analog, that it still might not
> > sound like a kick bass because
> > > > there is an aweful lot that goes into it outside
> > of these overtones.  In the
> > > > very least, while you may be able to nail one
> > sound, the normal use of a
> > > > bass drum within a single track contains many
> > different sounds even though
> > > > only one drum and one drummer is present.  What
> > will be difficult to
> > > > synthesize is the human qualities of the
> > playing, which as you know is a
> > > > real big part of the the whole effect of  a
> > drummer drumming.
> > > >
> > > > It has been my experience that while it's
> > possible to get close via analog
> > > > or even digital, it's usually impossible to get
> > spot-on.  In this instance
> > > > though I think this is a job for digits, not
> > volts.
> > > >
> > > > If you look into those who have tried this with
> > other models, the human
> > > > voice (Charles Dodge, Paul Lansky and Jon
> > Appleton) in the end it was
> > > > impossible to accomplish via analog and they all
> > had to go to computers (at
> > > > Columbia Uni, Bell Labs and Dartmouth College
> > respectfully).   It's silly
> > > > however for me to compare the two sounds, as the
> > human voice is by far more
> > > > complex than a kick. One who has come close is
> > Wendy Carlos  but be aware
> > > > that most of her drums sounds were played at
> > half speed in their final form,
> > > > the effects of which you just can't replicate
> > through real-time analog
> > > > means.
> > > >
> > > > And while I am not a real big fan of the the
> > technology, the subject will
> > > > undoubtedly come up "why don't you just sample a
> > bass drum", although I
> > > > understand that this is not the thrust behind
> > the experiement.
> > > >
> > > > Again, I am not trying to quell this idea
> > because it is quite admirable.  At
> > > > the very least, I am trying to suggest that a
> > very careful analysis of the
> > > > entire sound event needs to be taken into
> > account, which goes much beyond
> > > > the harmonic structure of the instrument.
> > > >
> > > > very respectfully submitted -
> > > >
> > > > P
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > on 3/31/02 7:11 PM, Tim Ressel at
> > madhun2001 at yahoo.com wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Christian,
> > > > >
> > > > >> Fascinating...
> > > > >> is this EVERY drum with a circular head?  I'm
> > > > >> assuming this is for a head
> > > > >> stretched to a specific tension all the way
> > > > >> around... or does the tension of
> > > > >> the different parts of the drum just change
> > the
> > > > >> relationship of the mode
> > > > >> amplitudes to the fundamental?
> > > > >
> > > > > Assumes equal tension across the head.
> > > > > Formula for freq of stretched membrane:
> > > > >
> > > > > Fo = (0.382/R) * sqrt(T/m)
> > > > >
> > > > > R=Radius of membrane in centimeters
> > > > > T=tension in dynes per centimeter
> > > > > m=mass of membrane in grams per square
> > centimeter
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >> this would be interesting.  Modeling this
> > seems
> > > > >> intriging... I've been
> > > > >> studying physical modeling for a while and
> > wonder if
> > > > >> we this could me
> > > > >> modeled with a delay line representing the
> > 'height'
> > > > >> of the drum with a
> > > > >> scattering junction at end.  Sort of like a
> > Physical
> > > > >> model for a horn or
> > > > >> flute, but with a really different excitation
> > > > >> signal...
> > > > >
> > > > > Because the radius is much larger than the
> > length, the
> > > > > end effects kinda swamp the tube effect.
> > That's why I
> > > > > said the filter would have a low Q. Physical
> > modelling
> > > > > would be fun, if a bit overkill...
> >
> === message truncated ===
>
>
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