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Complete newbie question regarding system set-up

Complete newbie question regarding system set-up

2003-12-31 by Mr Scott Stanley

Hi, everyone!  I've got a quick question regarding
mixer set-up.  So, here is the list of my equipment:
AN1x (obviously), ESQ-1, TX81Z, and an RY20.  Now, I
want to run these through a mixer (Alesis MultiMix 6x,
maybe), but on that specific model, it has 2 Mono
(lines 1&2) and 2 Stereo (lines 3/4 & 5/6) inputs. 
Now, the question is, if I get this specific mixer,
what would be the best way to hook-up my gear?  I'm
sort of baffled as to why lines 3,4,5 & 6 don't have
their own separate stereo inputs. Shouldn't this be
labeled a '4 channel' instead of a '6 channel mixer',
as it effectively has "only" 4 sets of inputs? 
Anyway, if someone would be so kind as to guide this
newbie down the correct path, I would GREATLY
appreciate it.  If you wish to reply off list, my main
e-mail addy is nsbhp5@.... Obviously just
remove the nospam from the address.  Thanks in
advance!

Sincerely,
Scott

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Re: [AN1x] Complete newbie question regarding system set-up

2004-01-01 by Mike Metlay ++ Atomic City

>Hi, everyone!  I've got a quick question regarding
>mixer set-up.  So, here is the list of my equipment:
>AN1x (obviously), ESQ-1, TX81Z, and an RY20.  Now, I
>want to run these through a mixer (Alesis MultiMix 6x,
>maybe), but on that specific model, it has 2 Mono
>(lines 1&2) and 2 Stereo (lines 3/4 & 5/6) inputs.
>Now, the question is, if I get this specific mixer,
>what would be the best way to hook-up my gear?  I'm
>sort of baffled as to why lines 3,4,5 & 6 don't have
>their own separate stereo inputs. Shouldn't this be
>labeled a '4 channel' instead of a '6 channel mixer',
>as it effectively has "only" 4 sets of inputs?
>Anyway, if someone would be so kind as to guide this
>newbie down the correct path, I would GREATLY
>appreciate it.  If you wish to reply off list, my main
>e-mail addy is nsbhp5@.... Obviously just
>remove the nospam from the address.  Thanks in
>advance!
>
>Sincerely,
>Scott

Scott,

Welcome to the jungle.

The Alesis mixer you've chosen will not have enough inputs to run all 
of your gear at the same time if you want to use them all in stereo. 
Each box requires two inputs and that makes a total of eight.

Mixer manufacturers can count the "number of channels" in many 
different ways; Alesis does it by counting the total number of 
signals that can be brought in on the channel inputs of the mixer (so 
a mono channel has one input and a stereo channel has two), but other 
manufacturers only count channel strips (thus possibly under-counting 
the number of inputs) or they also include effects returns (which 
over-counts the number of inputs).

Most small mixers generally offer a combination of mono and stereo 
inputs. The former are for microphones and the latter are for the 
modern line-level keyboards that run in stereo, or for stereo effects 
processors (like the Line 6 POD) for guitars. The idea behind this is 
that if you're working with a lot of stereo devices, it's much easier 
and cheaper to build stereo channels for them. You only need one set 
of electronics rather than two, and when you turn down one knob you 
lower both channels' levels at the same time without riding two 
different controls. The ideal "synth mixer" would be a gigantic 
console that only or almost only has stereo channels, but only a few 
such boards have ever been made and they're only available as custom 
devices from companies like Speck Electronics now...and such boxes 
are very, very expensive.

If what you want to record is four stereo instruments (I don't 
remember if the ESQ1 is stereo), you will require a mixer with four 
stereo channels or eight mono channels or some combination thereof to 
get you the total number of inputs you need. You will also need to 
reserve extra channels to use as effects returns if (a) your mixer 
doesn't have them and (b) you want to process your synths with 
external effects, for example a reverb box to help put all your 
synths in the same "room". If you're only going to use the internal 
effects of the Alesis mixer for now, then you needn't worry about 
that last limitation, as its internal DSP has its own returns and it 
doesn't use the ones on the mixer.

If you insist on using the 6-channel Alesis, you'll need to do one of 
two things: either run two of your synths in mono, or use the stereo 
aux return to bring back one of your stereo signals into the mix 
(thereby sacrificing the ability to add external effects later). I 
recommend that you get the 8-channel model instead, as the extra few 
bucks will pay off in flexibility. And if you plan to add more synths 
later, you might even consider buying a mixer with even more channels 
to hold in reserve.

Good luck, and if you really want to learn about this stuff upside 
down and backwards, the best investment you can make right now would 
be a subscription to a good pro audio magazine. I'd suggest
--Whoops, ball dropping. Gotta go!

mike

-- 
"My week beats your year."                                 (l. reed)
====================================================================
Mike Metlay * ATOMIC CITY * PO Box 17083 * Boulder CO 80308-0083 USA
metlay@... *                  * http://www.atomiccity.com

Re: [AN1x] Complete newbie question regarding system set-up

2004-01-01 by Scott Carr

... ;)

Recording Magazine:

http://www.recordingmag.com/

also (this one is free and consequently very ad laden, but a good resource)

TapeOp Magazine:

http://www.tapeop.com/

Happy New Year!

Scott

Mike Metlay ++ Atomic City wrote:


> Good luck, and if you really want to learn about this stuff upside 
> down and backwards, the best investment you can make right now would 
> be a subscription to a good pro audio magazine. I'd suggest
> --Whoops, ball dropping. Gotta go!
> 
> mike
> 

-- 
~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%
                      Psycho Acoustic Aural Stimulation
                      http://www.tapehissrecordings.com

                  ....and for a whole new kind of music....
                          http://www.tapegerm.com
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Re: [AN1x] Complete newbie question regarding system set-up

2004-01-01 by Kaltar

The ESQ1 Is Stereo.

Mike, Do You Make All Your Synths Run Dry Before Reaching Your Reverb?  Or Do 
You Use The Reverb In The Synths Also?
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Wednesday 31 December 2003 11:41 pm, Mike Metlay ++ Atomic City wrote:
> >Hi, everyone!  I've got a quick question regarding
> >mixer set-up.  So, here is the list of my equipment:
> >AN1x (obviously), ESQ-1, TX81Z, and an RY20.  Now, I
> >want to run these through a mixer (Alesis MultiMix 6x,
> >maybe), but on that specific model, it has 2 Mono
> >(lines 1&2) and 2 Stereo (lines 3/4 & 5/6) inputs.
> >Now, the question is, if I get this specific mixer,
> >what would be the best way to hook-up my gear?  I'm
> >sort of baffled as to why lines 3,4,5 & 6 don't have
> >their own separate stereo inputs. Shouldn't this be
> >labeled a '4 channel' instead of a '6 channel mixer',
> >as it effectively has "only" 4 sets of inputs?
> >Anyway, if someone would be so kind as to guide this
> >newbie down the correct path, I would GREATLY
> >appreciate it.  If you wish to reply off list, my main
> >e-mail addy is nsbhp5@.... Obviously just
> >remove the nospam from the address.  Thanks in
> >advance!
> >
> >Sincerely,
> >Scott
>
> Scott,
>
> Welcome to the jungle.
>
> The Alesis mixer you've chosen will not have enough inputs to run all
> of your gear at the same time if you want to use them all in stereo.
> Each box requires two inputs and that makes a total of eight.
>
> Mixer manufacturers can count the "number of channels" in many
> different ways; Alesis does it by counting the total number of
> signals that can be brought in on the channel inputs of the mixer (so
> a mono channel has one input and a stereo channel has two), but other
> manufacturers only count channel strips (thus possibly under-counting
> the number of inputs) or they also include effects returns (which
> over-counts the number of inputs).
>
> Most small mixers generally offer a combination of mono and stereo
> inputs. The former are for microphones and the latter are for the
> modern line-level keyboards that run in stereo, or for stereo effects
> processors (like the Line 6 POD) for guitars. The idea behind this is
> that if you're working with a lot of stereo devices, it's much easier
> and cheaper to build stereo channels for them. You only need one set
> of electronics rather than two, and when you turn down one knob you
> lower both channels' levels at the same time without riding two
> different controls. The ideal "synth mixer" would be a gigantic
> console that only or almost only has stereo channels, but only a few
> such boards have ever been made and they're only available as custom
> devices from companies like Speck Electronics now...and such boxes
> are very, very expensive.
>
> If what you want to record is four stereo instruments (I don't
> remember if the ESQ1 is stereo), you will require a mixer with four
> stereo channels or eight mono channels or some combination thereof to
> get you the total number of inputs you need. You will also need to
> reserve extra channels to use as effects returns if (a) your mixer
> doesn't have them and (b) you want to process your synths with
> external effects, for example a reverb box to help put all your
> synths in the same "room". If you're only going to use the internal
> effects of the Alesis mixer for now, then you needn't worry about
> that last limitation, as its internal DSP has its own returns and it
> doesn't use the ones on the mixer.
>
> If you insist on using the 6-channel Alesis, you'll need to do one of
> two things: either run two of your synths in mono, or use the stereo
> aux return to bring back one of your stereo signals into the mix
> (thereby sacrificing the ability to add external effects later). I
> recommend that you get the 8-channel model instead, as the extra few
> bucks will pay off in flexibility. And if you plan to add more synths
> later, you might even consider buying a mixer with even more channels
> to hold in reserve.
>
> Good luck, and if you really want to learn about this stuff upside
> down and backwards, the best investment you can make right now would
> be a subscription to a good pro audio magazine. I'd suggest
> --Whoops, ball dropping. Gotta go!
>
> mike

Re: [AN1x] Complete newbie question regarding system set-up

2004-01-01 by Jon

--- In AN1x-list@yahoogroups.com, Kaltar <kaltar@k...> wrote:
> The ESQ1 Is Stereo.
> 
> Mike, Do You Make All Your Synths Run Dry Before Reaching Your Reverb?  Or Do 
> You Use The Reverb In The Synths Also?
> 

Please edit your posts - there is no need to repost the entire thread.

Thank you.

Jon

Stereo effects on synths

2004-01-02 by Mike Metlay

Kaltar said:
> The ESQ1 Is Stereo.
>
> Mike, Do You Make All Your Synths Run Dry Before Reaching Your Reverb?  Or Do
> You Use The Reverb In The Synths Also?

Heh. You should read the long letter I wrote in the "TalkBack" column of the
February 2004 issue of _Recording_ on this very subject...

In short, my use of effects and stereo routing varies from application to
application and song to song. The problem with stereo reverb and ambience
internal to keyboards is that every keyboard ends up occupying its own
soundspace that doesn't relate to the soundspace of any other keyboard.

If you have a whole stack of wide stereo images on top of one another, you get
undifferentiated mush rather than a sensation of sounds within the same space.
Or, in cruder terms, if everything's in stereo, nothing's in stereo. (This
problem has gotten worse, rather than better, as miked guitar amps and DI'ed
basses, both basically mono signals, have been replaced by ooey gooey stereo
soundmush from direct-input amp modelers and effects processors.)

One eye-opening set of tests that I recommend: listen to a favorite patch on a
synth four ways...in stereo with all the effects, in stereo without all the
effects (whoops, why does it suddenly sound mono?), in mono with all the
effects (hey, where's all that luscious spaciousness?), and in mono without
all the effects (eeyucccchh!!). You learn very quickly why so many people who
use old analog synths continue to use old analog synths.

What's really funny, of course, is that in software synthesis you often can't
choose to run a synth in mono. It won't let you do it, period.

mike

-- 
Mirai: "I predict in the future all music will be made and heard with
organic living technology..."
                                      Rothwell: "You mean musicians?"
> < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > <
metlay / atomic city / metlay@... / http://www.atomiccity.com

RE: [AN1x] Complete newbie question regarding system set-up

2004-01-06 by Hover

Indeed, not too many mixing consoles exist with only stereo channels. But
not all were/are expensive.

In the E-series from Soundcraft you find the ES which has 10 stereo inputs
and 4 mono inputs and is not expensive.

Or what about the discontinued Mackie LM3204 which can be bought second hand
at an interesting price?

Hover
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Metlay ++ Atomic City [mailto:metlay@...] 
Sent: donderdag 1 januari 2004 5:41
To: AN1x-list@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AN1x] Complete newbie question regarding system set-up


The ideal "synth mixer" would be a gigantic 
console that only or almost only has stereo channels, but only a few 
such boards have ever been made and they're only available as custom 
devices from companies like Speck Electronics now...and such boxes 
are very, very expensive.


mike

RE: [AN1x] Complete newbie question regarding system set-up

2004-01-06 by Mr Scott Stanley

Thanks to everyone for the GREAT info!  I ended up
getting an almost new Behringer UB1622FX for around
$130 on eBay.  Now I just need my cables, and I'll be
set to drive the wife bonkers ;) Speaking of cables, I
keep seeing them labled as either 'Balanced' or
'Unbalanced'. Which is necessary for the AN1x, and
what is the difference in them?

Peace!
Scott
--- Hover <hover@...> wrote:
> Indeed, not too many mixing consoles exist with only
> stereo channels. But
> not all were/are expensive.
> 
> In the E-series from Soundcraft you find the ES
> which has 10 stereo inputs
> and 4 mono inputs and is not expensive.
> 
> Or what about the discontinued Mackie LM3204 which
> can be bought second hand
> at an interesting price?
> 
> Hover
> 
> 
> 


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RE: [AN1x] Complete newbie question regarding system set-up

2004-01-06 by Mike Metlay

Mr Scott Stanley said:
> Thanks to everyone for the GREAT info!  I ended up
> getting an almost new Behringer UB1622FX for around
> $130 on eBay.  Now I just need my cables, and I'll be
> set to drive the wife bonkers ;) Speaking of cables, I
> keep seeing them labled as either 'Balanced' or
> 'Unbalanced'. Which is necessary for the AN1x, and
> what is the difference in them?

Short answer: the AN1x's outputs are unbalanced and that's all you'll need to
use.

Long answer: Balancing is a technique that's used on cable runs to remove
certain kinds of external noise. A balanced cable uses three strands rather
than two. In addition to the hot signal and the ground, there is a third
strand, sometimes called the "cold" signal, which is the inverse of the hot
signal.

Why do this? Because devices that handle balanced signals are capable of
removing noise that appears on both lines, hot and cold, with the same
polarity. This includes external radio frequency interference, throb from AC
lines and wall warts, etc. If the signal's common to both hot and cold (i.e.
common-mode noise) it will be removed from the audio, making the signal much
cleaner.

All XLR mic cables are balanced; it's also possible to balance a 1/4" cable if
you use 3-conductor TRS plugs and jacks. It should be noted that two signals
sharing a common ground is a frequent thing in audio, and a 1/4" TRS plug or
jack could be wired to handle a mono balanced signal, a stereo unbalanced
signal, or even two mono unbalanced signals, one in each direction!

Even if you don't have balanced connectors on all your gear (and few studios
do), wiring up what you can in balanced mode will help noise a lot. You can
make your own cables that interface unbalanced to balanced gear with a little
bit of soldering; they're not as good as a fully balanced connection but
better than a fully unbalanced connection, in terms of shielding.

Your Behringer has balanced inputs but all your synths have unbalanced outs
(for some reason, balanced outs on synths are very rare). My advice is to use
unbalanced cables, ordinary 1/4" TS cables, for your instrument hookups, and
not to try to do fancy adapters unless you have bad hum or buzz problems.

mike

-- 
Mirai: "I predict in the future all music will be made and heard with
organic living technology..."
                                      Rothwell: "You mean musicians?"
> < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > <
metlay / atomic city / metlay@... / http://www.atomiccity.com

Re: [AN1x] Complete newbie question regarding system set-up

2004-01-06 by Dale Kay

A golden rule comes to mind, less things between you and the signal, the better. Shorter cables, watch your cable runs (a way from wall warts, power strips and anything that would make a compass move) the better. Stay away from adapters, buy the right cable. Well try too anyway.

dale
Administrator for Kay-Net.com
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Lancaster CA
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