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Volume levels to the max on keyboard or mixer? Or neither?

Volume levels to the max on keyboard or mixer? Or neither?

2004-01-05 by Bjorn Standal

Dear listers,

In the light of recent discussion concerning recording, I dare to ask a question maybe more suited to a "mixer-list", but I feel it may interest many attendees to the An1X-list:

My mixer (like most I assume) have faders. In my set-up, I have set the volume knob on almost all my keyboards / synths to about 2/3 of max and then set the faders fixed to a value to make all the keyboards roughly the same "loudness". If a recording demands that one of the keyboards need more volume, I use the dial on the instrument to gain volume.

Some people argue that the keyboards volume should always be maxed out and always use faders on mixer to adjust volume. Others claims that faders should be fixed at max and the instruments volume dial should be used to control the loudness.

Is there any rule that says this is totally wrong or that is totally right, or is it cleanly up to the guy who listens (that would be me)?

Sincerely yours,
Bjorn Standal





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Re: [AN1x] Volume levels to the max on keyboard or mixer? Or neither?

2004-01-05 by Bruce Wahler

Hi Bjorn,

>In the light of recent discussion concerning recording, I dare to ask a question maybe more suited to a "mixer-list", but I feel it may interest many attendees to the An1X-list:
>
>My mixer (like most I assume) have faders. In my set-up, I have set the volume knob on almost all my keyboards / synths to about 2/3 of max and then set the faders fixed to a value to make all the keyboards roughly the same "loudness". If a recording demands that one of the keyboards need more volume, I use the dial on the instrument to gain volume.
>
>Some people argue that the keyboards volume should always be maxed out and always use faders on mixer to adjust volume. Others claims that faders should be fixed at max and the instruments volume dial should be used to control the loudness.
>
>Is there any rule that says this is totally wrong or that is totally right, or is it cleanly up to the guy who listens (that would be me)?

It's more a question of how the mixer was designed, the levels of your instruments, and the performance setting (live, recording, etc.).  I tend to use a method similar to yours in a live environment.  I set the instruments at 2/3 volume for a "rhythm" setting, and then turn up to max (or nearly so) on solos.  This is probably not the lowest-noise approach, but it has the practical benefit that I can always turn the volume up or down as needed.  We don't place the console in the audience, so each band member is expected to keep watch over the levels.  In a noisy club environment, the small difference in noise levels isn't noticeable.

In a recording situation, however, it's usually a good idea to keep the noise levels down to a minimum, because the noise can't be removed later.  In this case, the standard approach is to turn the instruments all the way up, thereby minimizing the signal-to-noise ratio at the inputs, and use the faders to adjust the levels. The assumption here is that the background noise (hiss, pops, and hum) is pretty much a constant; if it's 2% of the total signal, doubling the signal level then makes it only 1% of the total signal, etc.  There are two cases where this is NOT a good idea:  1) if turning up the instrument volume causes the mixer or recording device to overload (clip); and 2) if turning up the instrument volume causes the instrument itself to overload or change its timbre in an undesirable way.  The first case happens when the output level of the instrument is greater than the maximum level that the mixer can handle.  Mixers are often designed to handle everything from microphon
es, which may produce a few tens of millivolts maximum output, to "line level" devices that produce several volts of output.  If you are using a line level device, it may be possible to send more signal to the mixer than it was designed to use.  Most mixers have either a gain control or a gain selector switch, but these adjustments aren't always enough.  Overdriving a mixer usually results in a harsh, nasty sound -- but then again, sometimes a nasty sound is exactly what you're looking for!

The second case often occurs when inserting effects units and tube preamps into the chain.  A lower level of instrument output may give a desired sound (ex: tone warmth), while boosting the level may cause the device to overdrive or even overload, and the result may be completely different than was expected.  It can also happen in the AN1x if the VCA Feedback is set at a high level, or between stages of some digital effects units like the Quadraverb 2.

Regards,

-BW
--
Bruce Wahler
Ashby Solutions\ufffd   http://music.ashbysolutions.com
978.386.7389  voice/fax
bruce@...

Re: [AN1x] Volume levels to the max on keyboard or mixer? Or neither?

2004-01-05 by Peter Korsten

Bjorn Standal wrote:

> Is there any rule that says this is totally wrong or that is totally right, or is it cleanly up to the guy who listens (that would be me)?

If you get distortion, your signal is too hot. I think that's the only 
'golden' rule which is hard to refute.

- Peter

Re: [AN1x] Volume levels to the max on keyboard or mixer? Or neither?

2004-01-05 by Bjorn Standal

Thanks to Kaltar, Bruce and Dale (and any other that contribute after this mail is sent) for enlighten me on the issue. Certainly it it seems there's no dead right or wrong. But taking into account I'm strictly home recording hobbyist, I reckon maximising the output (to achieve low sound to noise ratio) while avoiding clipping or overloading the mixer probably would be optimal.

Dale, I never thought of that headroom for effects you talk about. I usually use onboard effects, but being an amateur (or hobbyist more like it), I've never taking into account headroom for effects. Hell, I never even thought about making reverb or delay of one synth "compatible" with the same effects on another synth (delay ms, echo to bpm or Room Type for reverb). Maybe that's why I always get a mushy wall of sound with little distinction... Too much going on maybe. All the instruments sound great by themselves. Less so in a mix. But that's a whole other topic that could easily fill a book. ;)

Oh, and by the way, speaking of such books: There was a question I believe for home recording litterature. I recently purchased Ben Milstead's Home Recording Power (ISBN 1-929685-08-4) which I found rather informative. It focused broadly on many different instruments (incl. vocals, guitars, synths), so for keyboard / synth only musicians (like me), there may be books that focuses more on our specific needs. Nevertheless it's good to aquire some basic knowledge of any recording situation. Makes you understand the whole general frequency / amplitude thingie a little better. Among other things.

Regards,
Bjorn

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Re: [AN1x] Volume levels to the max on keyboard or mixer? Or neither?

2004-01-05 by Dale Kay

I use external effects pedals too... (mostly ones for guitar type in line with the synths or via mixer if they need to be matched (input too hot for them or too week depending). Some might go squeamish with this note, I use compressors on each track as needed to pick it out of the mix here and there. Less is good. Depending on the effect you desire.

Reading for background is great and good. Actually doing it by hand is what worked for me... being a engineer type already, I needed that hands on more knobs thing...

dale

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  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Bjorn Standal 
  To: AN1x-list@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 11:25 AM
  Subject: Re: [AN1x] Volume levels to the max on keyboard or mixer? Or neither?


  Thanks to Kaltar, Bruce and Dale (and any other that contribute after this mail is sent) for enlighten me on the issue. Certainly it it seems there's no dead right or wrong. But taking into account I'm strictly home recording hobbyist, I reckon maximising the output (to achieve low sound to noise ratio) while avoiding clipping or overloading the mixer probably would be optimal.

  Dale, I never thought of that headroom for effects you talk about. I usually use onboard effects, but being an amateur (or hobbyist more like it), I've never taking into account headroom for effects. Hell, I never even thought about making reverb or delay of one synth "compatible" with the same effects on another synth (delay ms, echo to bpm or Room Type for reverb). Maybe that's why I always get a mushy wall of sound with little distinction... Too much going on maybe. All the instruments sound great by themselves. Less so in a mix. But that's a whole other topic that could easily fill a book. ;)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [AN1x] Volume levels to the max on keyboard or mixer? Or neither?

2004-01-06 by Ed Edwards

Hi Dale,
    It's not probably a matter of personal taste as much as it is a circuit
design thing.  Impedance is the ruler in the audio signal chain world.  Not
to get too technical it goes something like this:
    Impedance is the AC resistance of a circuit.  Unfortunately this value
varies over frequency as well as pressure from the input voltage.  For
example, your speakers may be rated at 8 ohms.  This may be well and good as
an average, but in reality the impedance varies greatly depending on the
input voltage and resistance ---- and further varies in the output system
over each frequency.  To give a minimal example:  If a constant voltage was
input and swept upwards in frequency a variation in volume must occur in the
output (audio via speakers or via a signal jack).
    So my final suggestion is this:  Be careful and conservative in how you
pump each stage.  The dynamic interaction (read: unpredictable) can be a
blessing or a curse.

Ed Edwards
Leader: Ezekiel's Wheel      \ufffd\ufffd\ufffd\ufffdRetro-Progressive Rock\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd
http://www.untiedmusic.com/ezekiel
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Re: [AN1x] Volume levels to the max on keyboard or mixer? Or neither?

2004-01-06 by James Acker

Bjorn,

You really have to adjust EQ, tone, etc.  in the mix.
    But it sounds like you get that. I just had it really hammered in for me once
when I kept adjusting a multi effects pedal while playing along with the mix
I had so far. I got a perfect sound, exactly what I wanted. Recorded it and was
happy. It was crunchy, yet had good substance, and sounded a little "silky"  and
smooth somehow. Later on I heard the guitar solo'ed, without the rest of the tracks and it
sucked....really bad. It was tinny, to the point of breaking up, it was thin, it sucked.
Brought up the mix and it sounded great, down again, suck...

    I played with that for an hour or so. Just amazed, trying to hear at what point
the thing just meshed in with the rest of the mix.

    You can try this out yourself. Lay down just a few tracks making sure they
are all different instrument types, like one bass, one set of drums, one rythm
type piano, just get a mix that sounds okay so far. 
    Now without hearing the patch, while the mix is playing, pick a sound, start
adjusting it....if you don't like it move on and try another, but only adjust or even
select them in the mix. You have to sort of have an idea of what kind of sound you
want, but see what just sounds killer in the mix. Then finally listen to the patch
plain...all alone. 
    I bet the chances are good it is a sound you'd never have picked alone while
just tinkering with the machine to get a good sound.

Jim

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Re: [AN1x] Volume levels to the max on keyboard or mixer? Or neither?

2004-01-06 by Bjorn Standal

Thanks Acker for the mixing tip. Actually I started doing the "pick-instrument-while-listen-to-mix" thingie not long ago. But you set me on another track: Really never thought of playing around with EQ for an instrument while listening to the whole recording... I'll definitely going to pay more attention to the proper use of effects and soundspace in the future.

Regards,
Bjorn

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