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stepping filters? no!

stepping filters? no!

2003-12-30 by ecf1001

Hi All,

Pardon me if this is old news, I'll admit that I haven't dug through 
the archives enough. But...

Many people mention in the reviews that AN1x filters "step" alot. 
Some frown upon that, others choose to think of it as the 
instrument's character. I've always preferred the latter approach.

Again, I don't believe I'm the first one to discover this, but AN1x's 
filters are perfectly fine. It's the controllers. Maybe they were 
trying to conserve MIDI bandwidth, maybe it was a design oversight, 
maybe both, but the way the board generates midi controller messages 
(which in turn feed the control matrix, according to the manual) is 
sporadic at best. My humble findings are based on a board running OS 
1.2 - never really though about upgrading until now. :)

If I assign a controller to ribbon-X and record a midi track on a DAW 
while moving a finger across it in a steady fashion and at a moderate 
pace, the resulting controller footprint looks like the Devil's 
Staircase (those who don't know what this is, look up fractals on 
google). If the controller is changing fast enough, AN1x will omit 
some consecutive values, taking the liberty of "thinning out" the 
controller stream, but more horribly, the timing of the controller 
values being sent resembles a packet network more than anything else. 
That is, some controller messages are being delayed and, in my case, 
the controller changes are being sent in bursts of 2.

In other words, when you move the finger across the ribbon *evenly*, 
the controller change messages that come out are anything but even. 
The problem is worse when you're working with Local mode off, echoing 
the midi stream back to the instrument, than the other way around.

Now, suppose ribbon-X was assigned to filter cutoff. If I record a 
phrase with the controller movements and edit the controller stream 
by hand to make it contiguous and evenly timed (Cubase and I'm sure 
most other MIDI-capable software sequencers have those neat line and 
parabola drawing tools), the filter opening and closing sounds as it 
should - silky smooth.

Therefore, my conclusion is that AN1x is great as a midi controller 
(as in keyboard) - unless controller (as in midi CC) smoothness and 
continuity is important to you. And my question is: has 
this "contronller thinning feature" been addressed in the later 
firmware revisions?

Thanks,
Alex

Re: stepping filters? no!

2003-12-30 by Jon

--- In AN1x-list@yahoogroups.com, "ecf1001" <ecf1001@y...> wrote:
> Therefore, my conclusion is that AN1x is great as a midi controller 
> (as in keyboard) - unless controller (as in midi CC) smoothness and 
> continuity is important to you. And my question is: has 
> this "contronller thinning feature" been addressed in the later 
> firmware revisions?
> 

No.

Jon

Re: [AN1x] stepping filters? no!

2003-12-31 by Mike Metlay ++ Atomic City

>Again, I don't believe I'm the first one to discover this, but AN1x's
>filters are perfectly fine. It's the controllers. Maybe they were
>trying to conserve MIDI bandwidth, maybe it was a design oversight,
>maybe both, but the way the board generates midi controller messages
>(which in turn feed the control matrix, according to the manual) is
>sporadic at best.

This is a real battle that every manufacturer has to deal with, and 
many choose to deal with it in many different ways so there's no 
universally "correct" method. The issue is one of trying to provide 
as much control in as little time as possible, while dealing with 
externally imposed limits on the equation. Follow along while I go 
into pedant mode for a bit, using MIDI as an example (even though, as 
I'll explain at the end, it may not be the culprit at all in this 
particular case).

At 31.25 kilobits per second and ten bits per data byte (see 
http://www.midi.org, the webpage for the MIDI Manufacturers' 
Association, for more details), MIDI can at its most efficient only 
send 3125 data words per second into any given device. That's about 
three words per millisecond, which as a rule is under the limits of 
most humans' perception of delay, but that assumes absolute 
efficiency, no packeting problems, and no competition of events with 
one another in the MIDI data stream (e.g. notes competing with 
controller data or multiple controllers being used at once).

Now, that's the number of data words per second. We then need to get 
the number of actual MESSAGES per second being sent. Most of the 
messages we're interested in have three data words per message: the 
status byte, the event type byte, and the parameter value byte. For a 
note-on, that's Note-ON/C3/Velocity 64, for example. For a 
controller, that's Controller/ModWheel/27 or whatever. (I'm going to 
omit a discussion of running status, which can speed things up a fair 
bit but not by so much that this argument is invalidated. Please go 
to the above website to learn more.) So, the rule of thumb is, 1 
message per millisecond, and (again, see the website) there's a 
latency of up to 3 milliseconds in the time taken to send such a 
message.

For simplicity's sake, let's assume there's no competition and all 
you're doing is moving a single controller from minimum to maximum. 
That's 127 messages, roughly an eighth of a second. In a completely 
ideal world, that's about how long it takes to "snap" a controller 
from minimum to maximum, and so even the fastest movements should be 
smoothly reproducible with 7-bit resolution.

Unfortunately our world isn't ideal. Control devices need to be 
polled periodically to see if they've been moved, and if they have, 
then a bit of "catch-up" needs to be played. Manufacturers 
deliberately slow and/or thin data transmission to assure that the 
MIDI bus doesn't have overflows and lose data, which can happen 
pretty easily. The problem is, HOW to handle these slowdowns is not a 
hard and fast rule.

The two extremes of the spectrum are "thin but do not slow" and "slow 
but do not thin". The results are, in the first case, data that 
represents in real time where the hand of the player is but does so 
in a choppy, snapshotted manner, and in the second case, data that 
represents the entire movement of the hand of the player but not in 
real time. For an example of the former, check out the Doepfer Pocket 
Control, which thins out data to amazing degrees of coarseness as the 
speed of movements increases. For an example of the latter, check out 
the Encore Electronics Knobby, which broadcasts absolutely perfect 
movements but may take a second or longer to catch up with fast knob 
movements. (I measured the MIDI response of both units for an article 
I did a while back; we do such measurements as a matter of routine 
when we review MIDI controllers.)

Neither is ideal, and manufacturers are constantly fighting to find 
compromises that work for most players. My personal preference, for 
what it's worth, is a smooth tradeoff between resolution and speed, 
so that very fast movements are coarse but slow movements have fine 
resolution. Then it's a matter of selecting an average data density 
that seems to work for your application. For many computer musicians, 
who can go back and paint in whatever resolution of data they need in 
their sequencers, only having a rough level of input data is 
perfectly fine: sketch in the general motion first, clean it up 
later. Naturally, the sequencer has its own, much finer data 
resolution than MIDI can handle, so controller streams can be very 
thick and still run in real time, assuming the data can be delivered 
that quickly to the MIDI devices...another advantage, at least in 
theory, for software-based or PCI-card-based software synths, which 
can accept and process data at speeds limited only by the host 
hardware.

In the case of digital synths like the AN1x, MIDI may not even be a 
part of the equation; the slowness and/or erratic nature of the 
device's internal hardware polling may be the limiting factor. If the 
AN1x's CPU is too anemic to poll the ribbon fast enough and cleanly 
enough for a real smooth response, the player can hear this stepping 
effect even without using MIDI. It's a common problem on older 
modeled-digital machines, which are already working very hard to 
create sound before you then slam them with controller load. In 
theory, this is another advantage for real analog machines, which 
respond to voltage changes at the speed of light and don't have 
polling problems. Also in theory, as CPUs get faster and modeling 
code gets more efficient, we should see better and better behavior 
inside any given machine (without slapping on MIDI's ceiling) and 
this should become less of an issue--and that, alas, doesn't help 
matters for older machines like the AN1x at all, forcing us to use 
their coarse CPU response as a part of their inherent character. 
Behold, the dark days are upon us, and we are all labeled "glitch" 
artists because we can't afford the newest toys. Calamity and woe!

Anyway, I haven't rambled here for a while and felt the need. I hope 
this gave everyone a bit of enlightenment. Best wishes for the New 
Year to all.

mike



-- 
"My week beats your year."                                 (l. reed)
====================================================================
Mike Metlay * ATOMIC CITY * PO Box 17083 * Boulder CO 80308-0083 USA
metlay@... *                  * http://www.atomiccity.com

Re: [AN1x] stepping filters? no!

2004-01-01 by Kaltar

Geez Mike, You Really Know Your Stuff! That Was A Great Explanation!

Now, Wich Controller Do You Recommend That Is Fast On response (thin) And Has 
Polyphonic Afterpressure?

Happy New Year to You All!
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Tuesday 30 December 2003 11:41 pm, Mike Metlay ++ Atomic City wrote:
> >Again, I don't believe I'm the first one to discover this, but AN1x's
> >filters are perfectly fine. It's the controllers. Maybe they were
> >trying to conserve MIDI bandwidth, maybe it was a design oversight,
> >maybe both, but the way the board generates midi controller messages
> >(which in turn feed the control matrix, according to the manual) is
> >sporadic at best.
>
> This is a real battle that every manufacturer has to deal with, and
> many choose to deal with it in many different ways so there's no
> universally "correct" method. The issue is one of trying to provide
> as much control in as little time as possible, while dealing with
> externally imposed limits on the equation. Follow along while I go
> into pedant mode for a bit, using MIDI as an example (even though, as
> I'll explain at the end, it may not be the culprit at all in this
> particular case).
>
> At 31.25 kilobits per second and ten bits per data byte (see
> http://www.midi.org, the webpage for the MIDI Manufacturers'
> Association, for more details), MIDI can at its most efficient only
> send 3125 data words per second into any given device. That's about
> three words per millisecond, which as a rule is under the limits of
> most humans' perception of delay, but that assumes absolute
> efficiency, no packeting problems, and no competition of events with
> one another in the MIDI data stream (e.g. notes competing with
> controller data or multiple controllers being used at once).
>
> Now, that's the number of data words per second. We then need to get
> the number of actual MESSAGES per second being sent. Most of the
> messages we're interested in have three data words per message: the
> status byte, the event type byte, and the parameter value byte. For a
> note-on, that's Note-ON/C3/Velocity 64, for example. For a
> controller, that's Controller/ModWheel/27 or whatever. (I'm going to
> omit a discussion of running status, which can speed things up a fair
> bit but not by so much that this argument is invalidated. Please go
> to the above website to learn more.) So, the rule of thumb is, 1
> message per millisecond, and (again, see the website) there's a
> latency of up to 3 milliseconds in the time taken to send such a
> message.
>
> For simplicity's sake, let's assume there's no competition and all
> you're doing is moving a single controller from minimum to maximum.
> That's 127 messages, roughly an eighth of a second. In a completely
> ideal world, that's about how long it takes to "snap" a controller
> from minimum to maximum, and so even the fastest movements should be
> smoothly reproducible with 7-bit resolution.
>
> Unfortunately our world isn't ideal. Control devices need to be
> polled periodically to see if they've been moved, and if they have,
> then a bit of "catch-up" needs to be played. Manufacturers
> deliberately slow and/or thin data transmission to assure that the
> MIDI bus doesn't have overflows and lose data, which can happen
> pretty easily. The problem is, HOW to handle these slowdowns is not a
> hard and fast rule.
>
> The two extremes of the spectrum are "thin but do not slow" and "slow
> but do not thin". The results are, in the first case, data that
> represents in real time where the hand of the player is but does so
> in a choppy, snapshotted manner, and in the second case, data that
> represents the entire movement of the hand of the player but not in
> real time. For an example of the former, check out the Doepfer Pocket
> Control, which thins out data to amazing degrees of coarseness as the
> speed of movements increases. For an example of the latter, check out
> the Encore Electronics Knobby, which broadcasts absolutely perfect
> movements but may take a second or longer to catch up with fast knob
> movements. (I measured the MIDI response of both units for an article
> I did a while back; we do such measurements as a matter of routine
> when we review MIDI controllers.)
>
> Neither is ideal, and manufacturers are constantly fighting to find
> compromises that work for most players. My personal preference, for
> what it's worth, is a smooth tradeoff between resolution and speed,
> so that very fast movements are coarse but slow movements have fine
> resolution. Then it's a matter of selecting an average data density
> that seems to work for your application. For many computer musicians,
> who can go back and paint in whatever resolution of data they need in
> their sequencers, only having a rough level of input data is
> perfectly fine: sketch in the general motion first, clean it up
> later. Naturally, the sequencer has its own, much finer data
> resolution than MIDI can handle, so controller streams can be very
> thick and still run in real time, assuming the data can be delivered
> that quickly to the MIDI devices...another advantage, at least in
> theory, for software-based or PCI-card-based software synths, which
> can accept and process data at speeds limited only by the host
> hardware.
>
> In the case of digital synths like the AN1x, MIDI may not even be a
> part of the equation; the slowness and/or erratic nature of the
> device's internal hardware polling may be the limiting factor. If the
> AN1x's CPU is too anemic to poll the ribbon fast enough and cleanly
> enough for a real smooth response, the player can hear this stepping
> effect even without using MIDI. It's a common problem on older
> modeled-digital machines, which are already working very hard to
> create sound before you then slam them with controller load. In
> theory, this is another advantage for real analog machines, which
> respond to voltage changes at the speed of light and don't have
> polling problems. Also in theory, as CPUs get faster and modeling
> code gets more efficient, we should see better and better behavior
> inside any given machine (without slapping on MIDI's ceiling) and
> this should become less of an issue--and that, alas, doesn't help
> matters for older machines like the AN1x at all, forcing us to use
> their coarse CPU response as a part of their inherent character.
> Behold, the dark days are upon us, and we are all labeled "glitch"
> artists because we can't afford the newest toys. Calamity and woe!
>
> Anyway, I haven't rambled here for a while and felt the need. I hope
> this gave everyone a bit of enlightenment. Best wishes for the New
> Year to all.
>
> mike

Re: [AN1x] stepping filters? no!

2004-01-01 by Kaltar

Sorry, I Meant aftertouch (altought some People call It Afterpressure)
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Thursday 01 January 2004 12:43 am, Kaltar wrote:
> Geez Mike, You Really Know Your Stuff! That Was A Great Explanation!
>
> Now, Wich Controller Do You Recommend That Is Fast On response (thin) And
> Has Polyphonic Afterpressure?
>
> Happy New Year to You All!
>

Re: [AN1x] stepping filters? no!

2004-01-02 by Mike Metlay

Kaltar said:
> Geez Mike, You Really Know Your Stuff! That Was A Great Explanation!

That's very kind, Kaltar. BTW, I am sorry that I haven't had a chance to
listen to the music you sent me or to reply to your last email. Things at home
have been a little bit crazy over the holidays and won't really settle down
for a while.

> Now, Wich Controller Do You Recommend That Is Fast On response (thin) And Has
> Polyphonic Afterpressure?

I can't make any recommendations on thinning in this regard; it's getting
harder and harder to find any keyboards at all out there with poly aftertouch
that even work reliably, and there's no data on their bandwidth that I'm aware
of. Sorry. (I assume you're interested in getting a poly AT keyboard for use
with Arturia CS-80V? There seems to be a sudden cottage industry in looking
for poly AT keyboards to use with that new softsynth.)

mike

-- 
Mirai: "I predict in the future all music will be made and heard with
organic living technology..."
                                      Rothwell: "You mean musicians?"
> < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > <
metlay / atomic city / metlay@... / http://www.atomiccity.com

Re: [AN1x] stepping filters? no!

2004-01-04 by Dale Kay

The CS-80 emulation from Arturia is amazing. I can see why the poly aftertouch would be sought after esp. if you are into Vangelis. The icing on this cake could have been from Arturia if they offered a package deal with such a keyboard.

Dale Kay
Administrator Kay-Net.com
Lancaster CA
Bus 661.723.0266
admin@...

Slave to synth and
Avid reader of Signature Riffs of the Pros
join here at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/signature_riffs_of_the_pros/join

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Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Kaltar 
  To: AN1x-list@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2004 10:55 PM
  Subject: Re: [AN1x] stepping filters? no!


  Mike wrote:
  > (I assume you're interested in getting a poly AT
  > keyboard for use with Arturia CS-80V? There seems to be a sudden cottage
  > industry in looking for poly AT keyboards to use with that new softsynth.)

  Yes, it is! My All time favorite synth... and of course, the best part is the 
  expression you can get performing on it. The Arturia Emulation Is Amazing 
  (And For Moving This One You Dont Need To Be Hulk! And No Tunning Problems! 
  yahoo!), But its just half the Package Without The Right controller =(  
  Vangelis Music would not his signature without the cs80's Performing 
  posibilities. 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [AN1x] stepping filters? no!

2004-01-04 by Kaltar

Mike wrote:
> (I assume you're interested in getting a poly AT
> keyboard for use with Arturia CS-80V? There seems to be a sudden cottage
> industry in looking for poly AT keyboards to use with that new softsynth.)

Yes, it is! My All time favorite synth... and of course, the best part is the 
expression you can get performing on it. The Arturia Emulation Is Amazing 
(And For Moving This One You Dont Need To Be Hulk! And No Tunning Problems! 
yahoo!), But its just half the Package Without The Right controller =(  
Vangelis Music would not his signature without the cs80's Performing 
posibilities.

Re: [AN1x] stepping filters? no!

2004-01-06 by Joe Smooth

Hey there,

being new to the list (have an Ebayed AN1x on the way, should reach me 
soonish) I'd like to thank Alex and Mike for bringing this problem (and its 
explanation) to my attention. While it does disappoint me slightly (I bought 
the AN1x both as a soundsource AND a controller keyboard for softsynths), 
it's good to know I better check those controller lines in Cubase ;-)

B-bye,

Wim.

_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: your free e-mail ! http://www.msn.be/hotmail

Re: [AN1x] stepping filters? no!

2004-01-07 by ecf1001

Wim.,

Thanks for noticing us. :)

Yeah, this "problem" seems to be widely known, you'll see every other 
user complaining about "stepping filters" in the reviews (not 
suprising, given that the majority of the world is bent on the idea 
that cranking up the resonance and "tweaking the filter knobs in 
realtime" is what synthesis is all about - that combined with the 
fact that low pass filter is the most common application for the 
ribbon on the AN1x). Yet, I haven't seen anyone notice notice 
the "real problem", so I figured I'd shine some light on it as it had 
me frustrated in the middle of a project as well. :)

Can't remember if I already mentioned this and too lazy to look back, 
but I wanted to add another detail: the controller discontinuity 
seems to be worse when recording the parts in midi and playing them 
back (local off scenario) than when playing the keyboard as a 
standalone instrument (local on). Leave it to those japanese 
designers to get skimpy with midi bandwidth and this is what 
happens. :)

But, don't get too discouraged! I bought the board for the same 
reasons - primary as a synth and controller for other stuff as a 
bonus. The board sounds _fantastic_ and plays equally well (actually 
my favorite unweighted keyboard action to date, and I've gone through 
a few). And as far as skippy controllers: well... I think part of it 
is the ribbon itself. For most live work it probably won't matter 
anyway as it shouldn't be too noticeable, and in the studio you can 
always redraw the controllers. If you really do depend on your 
controllers being continuous and extra smooth - use mod wheel 
instead. It too will skip values when moved fast, but doesn't seem to 
have the timing problem like the ribbon does. Finally, if you're 
really pressed, midi controllers are abundant and not that expensive 
nowadays. :) A fader/knob box and an add-on ribbon (like those made 
by Kurzweil - nice, huge and with multiple zones) may be all you need 
(great for expanding the "tweakability" and impressing friends and 
audience as well).

Hope that was helpful.

Cheers,
Alex

--- In AN1x-list@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Smooth" <nervemeister@h...> 
wrote:
> Hey there,
> 
> being new to the list (have an Ebayed AN1x on the way, should reach 
me 
> soonish) I'd like to thank Alex and Mike for bringing this problem 
(and its 
> explanation) to my attention. While it does disappoint me slightly 
(I bought 
> the AN1x both as a soundsource AND a controller keyboard for 
softsynths), 
> it's good to know I better check those controller lines in Cubase ;-
)
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> B-bye,
> 
> Wim.

Re: [AN1x] stepping filters? no!

2004-01-07 by uralmoto2001

I have a PLG150AN board plugged into an S80 and I notice minimal 
stepping in the filter cutoff knob- probably because the AN is merely 
an expansion board and all the controllers are S80. As far as ribbon 
controllers go,most I've tried have been semi useful at best. Three 
stand out above all others- the Moog long ribbon,Kurtzweil long 
ribbon,and the one on the Alesis Andromeda. The Moog ribbon is the 
only one I have seen shoot fireworks out the end during a 
performance! (early ELP)

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