AVR-Chat

Hi all,

In thinking about how to store vast quantiteis of datalogging data 
AND to port it EASILY to a PC, I was wondering if anyone has used one 
of those USB sticks they call portable hard drives or USB Pen drive 
or whatever.....

http://www.abcd.com.au/memory/usb_memory_bar.htm

Dave

--- In AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com, David VanHorn <dvanhorn@c...> wrote:
> At 07:59 PM 7/23/2004 +0000, Dave Mucha wrote:
> 
> >Hi all,
> >
> >In thinking about how to store vast quantiteis of datalogging data 
> >AND to port it EASILY to a PC, I was wondering if anyone has used 
one 
> >of those USB sticks they call portable hard drives or USB Pen 
drive 
> >or whatever.....
> >
> >http://www.abcd.com.au/memory/usb_memory_bar.htm
> 
> AFAIK, it's difficult, if not impossible, to talk to USB devices 
from a micro.
> 
> I know some have interfaced to CF cards, which would likely do the 
job for you.

I have seen those also and they are also an option.

http://www.roguerobotics.com/products/uMMC/uMMC.htm

Is another option.

Dave

At 07:59 PM 7/23/2004 +0000, Dave Mucha wrote:

>Hi all,
>
>In thinking about how to store vast quantiteis of datalogging data 
>AND to port it EASILY to a PC, I was wondering if anyone has used one 
>of those USB sticks they call portable hard drives or USB Pen drive 
>or whatever.....
>
>http://www.abcd.com.au/memory/usb_memory_bar.htm

AFAIK, it's difficult, if not impossible, to talk to USB devices from a micro.

I know some have interfaced to CF cards, which would likely do the job for you.

Dave Mucha wrote:
>In thinking about how to store vast quantiteis of datalogging data
>AND to port it EASILY to a PC, I was wondering if anyone has used one
>of those USB sticks they call portable hard drives or USB Pen drive
>or whatever.....

Interfacing an avr to any usb device requires the avr to act as usb host.
This again would involve enumerating the usb-bus, which by itself is a
complex task. Then the required drivers for the memory-key must be
implemented.
Even if you suppose that your key allows low-speed mode, this is still
1.5Mbit/s, which means bit-banging at 3Mhz minimum, so your avr would be
100% usb occupied.
IMHO the best option is to use an external usb-if chip - or a uc with
embedded usb, AT43* to stick to avr-based devices...

rgds
Øystein Fallo

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--- In AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com, Øystein Fallo <oysfal@y...> wrote:
> Dave Mucha wrote:
> >In thinking about how to store vast quantiteis of datalogging data
> >AND to port it EASILY to a PC, I was wondering if anyone has used 
one
> >of those USB sticks they call portable hard drives or USB Pen drive
> >or whatever.....
> 
> Interfacing an avr to any usb device requires the avr to act as usb 
host.
> This again would involve enumerating the usb-bus, which by itself 
is a
> complex task. Then the required drivers for the memory-key must be
> implemented.
> Even if you suppose that your key allows low-speed mode, this is 
still
> 1.5Mbit/s, which means bit-banging at 3Mhz minimum, so your avr 
would be
> 100% usb occupied.
> IMHO the best option is to use an external usb-if chip - or a uc 
with
> embedded usb, AT43* to stick to avr-based devices...
> 
> rgds
> Øystein Fallo


I was thinking about using the FTDI chip as the device to connect to 
the PC and AVR and to (hopefully) make connections much easier.

http://www.ftdichip.com/FTModule.htm

Dave

> 
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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At 03:55 PM 7/24/04 +0000, you wrote:
>I was thinking about using the FTDI chip as the device to connect to
>the PC and AVR and to (hopefully) make connections much easier.

Those are slave only devices.  They won't help hook up a micro as master to 
other USB devices.  USB is non-symmetric.

Robert

" 'Freedom' has no meaning of itself.  There are always restrictions,
be they legal, genetic, or physical.  If you don't believe me, try to
chew a radio signal. "

                         Kelvin Throop, III

for simplicity, people using 8 bit micros often use compact flash (CF) cards
to avoid the complexity of USB. There are implementations of CF interfaces
on the forums of various micros.

The Atmel AT43USB370 and AT43USB380 can serve as USB hosts.  There 
is a fair amount of software involved, but it can be drastically 
simplified in the data logging application described if you decide 
you only want to talk to mass storage-class devices (such as the USB 
key drives) and provide support for only one connected device.  

Bit-banging a USB at 12Mbps is pretty much out of the question, I 
think.  It could be (and has been) done at 1.5Mbps, but 
unfortunately for the host it's the slave device that gets to 
determie the data rate and all the memory sticks I've seen are full 
speed (12Mbps) or high speed (12Mbps during enumeration, usually a 
choice of 12Mbps or 480Mbps thereafter).

---Joel Kolstad

Look at he Cypress SL811HS

It can easily be interface with and AVR, and it's no big deal
to make the USB Host interface code on the AVR.

I know, because I've tried, but cannot offer more details at
the moment.

/Jesper


----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Joel Kolstad" <jkolstad71@yahoo.com>
To: <AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2004 10:33 PM
Subject: [AVR-Chat] Re: USB hard drives sticks


> The Atmel AT43USB370 and AT43USB380 can serve as USB hosts.  There 
> is a fair amount of software involved, but it can be drastically 
> simplified in the data logging application described if you decide 
> you only want to talk to mass storage-class devices (such as the USB 
> key drives) and provide support for only one connected device.  
> 
> Bit-banging a USB at 12Mbps is pretty much out of the question, I 
> think.  It could be (and has been) done at 1.5Mbps, but 
> unfortunately for the host it's the slave device that gets to 
> determie the data rate and all the memory sticks I've seen are full 
> speed (12Mbps) or high speed (12Mbps during enumeration, usually a 
> choice of 12Mbps or 480Mbps thereafter).
> 
> ---Joel Kolstad
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
>  
>

Jesper Hansen wrote:
>Look at he Cypress SL811HS
>
>It can easily be interface with and AVR, and it's no big deal
>to make the USB Host interface code on the AVR.

Be aware that SL811(H)S requires 8bit uC interface, eliminating the smaller
devices. Also be aware of the timing issues related to A0<-->ALE if this
operation-mode is selected (se SL811HS datasheet for details).
I started a project with this setup, but unfortunately it's been
de-prioritized, and so far I have nothing more than a draft schematic, and
thoughts on the firmware :(

Also, if I understand AT43USB370 correctly, this chip is merely a interface
chip, not a uC with embedded usb interface. AT43USB380 is an upgrade for OTG
and som other new features, like 8/16/32 bits host-interface (-370 supports
32bits host only). The "processor" in the 370/380 - is sram-based, and
requires another system-processor. The other Atmel USB-devices are function
or slave-usb devices only, and OTP based (except for the C51-based chips)...

So, to me it seems the best solution for a 8bit Atmel-based MCU-USB-Host
still includes an external i/f chip, like the SL811HS....

rgds
Øystein Fallo


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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I think SDcard is a perfect media for embedded
systems. advantages: low pin count, versatile
operating voltage, small footprint, availability of
sdcard reader sockets on new notebooks, easy to solder
socket.

and if you want a ready soln. visit this link, i
recently discovered.

http://www.roguerobotics.com/products/uMMC/uMMC.htm


Murat


--- Jesper Hansen <jesperh@telia.com> wrote:
> Look at he Cypress SL811HS
> 
> It can easily be interface with and AVR, and it's no
> big deal
> to make the USB Host interface code on the AVR.
> 
> I know, because I've tried, but cannot offer more
> details at
> the moment.
> 
> /Jesper
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Joel Kolstad" <jkolstad71@yahoo.com>
> To: <AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2004 10:33 PM
> Subject: [AVR-Chat] Re: USB hard drives sticks
> 
> 
> > The Atmel AT43USB370 and AT43USB380 can serve as
> USB hosts.  There 
> > is a fair amount of software involved, but it can
> be drastically 
> > simplified in the data logging application
> described if you decide 
> > you only want to talk to mass storage-class
> devices (such as the USB 
> > key drives) and provide support for only one
> connected device.  
> > 
> > Bit-banging a USB at 12Mbps is pretty much out of
> the question, I 
> > think.  It could be (and has been) done at
> 1.5Mbps, but 
> > unfortunately for the host it's the slave device
> that gets to 
> > determie the data rate and all the memory sticks
> I've seen are full 
> > speed (12Mbps) or high speed (12Mbps during
> enumeration, usually a 
> > choice of 12Mbps or 480Mbps thereafter).
> > 
> > ---Joel Kolstad
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >  
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >  
> > 
> 
> 



		
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> 32bits host only). The "processor" in the 370/380 -
> is sram-based, and
> requires another system-processor.

This is not exactly true, during power on, the device
can initialize its SRAM based program memory from a
external serial eeprom.

Murat

--- �ystein_Fallo <oysfal@yahoo.no> wrote:
> Jesper Hansen wrote:
> >Look at he Cypress SL811HS
> >
> >It can easily be interface with and AVR, and it's
> no big deal
> >to make the USB Host interface code on the AVR.
> 
> Be aware that SL811(H)S requires 8bit uC interface,
> eliminating the smaller
> devices. Also be aware of the timing issues related
> to A0<-->ALE if this
> operation-mode is selected (se SL811HS datasheet for
> details).
> I started a project with this setup, but
> unfortunately it's been
> de-prioritized, and so far I have nothing more than
> a draft schematic, and
> thoughts on the firmware :(
> 
> Also, if I understand AT43USB370 correctly, this
> chip is merely a interface
> chip, not a uC with embedded usb interface.
> AT43USB380 is an upgrade for OTG
> and som other new features, like 8/16/32 bits
> host-interface (-370 supports
> 32bits host only). The "processor" in the 370/380 -
> is sram-based, and
> requires another system-processor. The other Atmel
> USB-devices are function
> or slave-usb devices only, and OTP based (except for
> the C51-based chips)...
> 
> So, to me it seems the best solution for a 8bit
> Atmel-based MCU-USB-Host
> still includes an external i/f chip, like the
> SL811HS....
> 
> rgds
> �ystein Fallo
> 
> 
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system
> (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.726 / Virus Database: 481 - Release
> Date: 22.07.2004
> 
> 



		
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--- In AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com, MuRaT KaRaDeNiZ <karademu@y...> 
wrote:
> I think SDcard is a perfect media for embedded
> systems. advantages: low pin count, versatile
> operating voltage, small footprint, availability of
> sdcard reader sockets on new notebooks, easy to solder
> socket.
> 
> and if you want a ready soln. visit this link, i
> recently discovered.
> 
> http://www.roguerobotics.com/products/uMMC/uMMC.htm
>

I've been reading that site on and off for a week and it looks great 
at first glance.  I was made aware of that when someone posted the 
link on the BasicStamps list.

I went to check out the cards and they are tiny.  I guess 
minatureization is great for cameras, but something with a little 
more mass seems to add 'value'  in my case, reducing the fear of 
losing a $30.00 chip from my pocket.

There is a PIC site that also uses the MMC card.
http://www.compsys1.com/workbench/On_top_of_the_Bench/MMC_Project/mmc_
project.html

Haveing the memory removeable and with a USB connection is derirable.

And, I think there is a USB reader for the MMC chips....  need to 
check into that a little more as well.

I think the REAL bottom line for me will be ease of makeing it work.  
And it seems those USB memory sticks are out of the question for me.

Dave

--- In AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com, MuRaT KaRaDeNiZ <karademu@y...> 
wrote:
> and if you want a ready soln. visit this link, i
> recently discovered.
> 
> http://www.roguerobotics.com/products/uMMC/uMMC.htm

That's exactly the sort of board that someone needs to sit down and 
create for USB-based flash ROM stick.  Although by now I'm sure we'd 
all agree that USB is going to require slightly more hardware and 
software to accomplish such a feat, the selling price of the 
finished board probably wouldn't have to be any higher.

---Joel Kolstad

--- In AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com, "Joel Kolstad" <jkolstad71@y...> 
wrote:
> --- In AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com, MuRaT KaRaDeNiZ <karademu@y...> 
> wrote:
> > and if you want a ready soln. visit this link, i
> > recently discovered.
> > 
> > http://www.roguerobotics.com/products/uMMC/uMMC.htm
> 
> That's exactly the sort of board that someone needs to sit down and 
> create for USB-based flash ROM stick.  Although by now I'm sure 
we'd 
> all agree that USB is going to require slightly more hardware and 
> software to accomplish such a feat, the selling price of the 
> finished board probably wouldn't have to be any higher.
> 
> ---Joel Kolstad

http://www.ftdichip.com/

Speaking of USB connectivity, the FTDI chip offers legacy support for 
the serial bus to USB.  This seems to be a common way to connect USB 
to a microcontroller.   

This method also offers the possibility of the program on the PC 
recognising your device name so your device name will show up on the 
screen when it is pluggged in.   As I understand this part, to be 
recognized as the onwer of a specifi name, you need to register and 
buy the name.  But for hobby use, I don't think there is much chance 
of conflict with others.

Dave

> http://www.ftdichip.com/

Ummm... not quite.  The link I was responding to was someone's small 
board that allowed an ordinary microcontroller to easily access a 
FAT32 file system mounted on an MMC.  The original post was along the 
lines of wanting to do the same thing, albeit with USB memory 
sticks.  It's a complicated enough application that the 'small 
interface board' approach would probably make sense for a lot of 
applications.

> Speaking of USB connectivity, the FTDI chip offers legacy support 
for 
> the serial bus to USB.  This seems to be a common way to connect 
USB 
> to a microcontroller.   

If you don't need particularly high performance, yes it is.  FTDI has 
been around a long time now and their support appears to be excellent 
and the chips have gone through enough revisions that they're not 
quite full-featured.  For boards that already have serial port 
interfaces, it's something of a no-brainer, high quality solution.  

> This method also offers the possibility of the program on the PC 
> recognising your device name so your device name will show up on 
the 
> screen when it is pluggged in.   

Well, if you have an LCD or other display, any microcontroller can do 
that!

> As I understand this part, to be 
> recognized as the onwer of a specifi name, you need to register and 
> buy the name.  

Yes, and it's not cheap... $1500.  People occasionally talk about 
someone making a 'group buy' of a vendor ID and then selling the 
individual device IDs for just a few bucks (since there are 65536 
device IDs per vendor IDs!), but I've yet to see that successfully 
happen.  (It seems to be one of those things that many people like 
the idea of, but unless you're actually going to _sell_ your product, 
the approach of just using an arbitrary ID works just fine... hence 
few people are willing to even pony up, say, $20 for an ID...)

---Joel Kolstad

At 05:26 AM 7/27/04 +0000, you wrote:
> > As I understand this part, to be
> > recognized as the onwer of a specifi name, you need to register and
> > buy the name.
>
>Yes, and it's not cheap... $1500.  People occasionally talk about
>someone making a 'group buy' of a vendor ID and then selling the
>individual device IDs for just a few bucks (since there are 65536
>device IDs per vendor IDs!), but I've yet to see that successfully
>happen.  (It seems to be one of those things that many people like
>the idea of, but unless you're actually going to _sell_ your product,
>the approach of just using an arbitrary ID works just fine... hence
>few people are willing to even pony up, say, $20 for an ID...)

I thought FTDI provided something like 
that.  http://www.dlpdesign.com/usb/vid.html

I haven't used this but I have kept it in mind in case I needed it.

Robert

" 'Freedom' has no meaning of itself.  There are always restrictions,
be they legal, genetic, or physical.  If you don't believe me, try to
chew a radio signal. "

                         Kelvin Throop, III

--- In AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com, Robert Adsett <subscriptions@a...> 
> I thought FTDI provided something like 
> that.  http://www.dlpdesign.com/usb/vid.html

Yes, if you use their chips.  I was thinking along the lines of 
people using 100% software implementations of (necessarily low 
pseed) USB devices or those using FPGAs for full- and high-speed 
devices.

---Joel