Yahoo Groups archive

AVR-Chat

Index last updated: 2026-04-28 22:41 UTC

Thread

RE: [AVR-Chat] DC-DC converter

RE: [AVR-Chat] DC-DC converter

2004-07-30 by Cobb, Quentin

I don't get it.  You have four AA batteries, so you have 5v if you run them
in series. You want 5v to run the printer.  Why do you need to convert
anything?
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: C Sizer [mailto:aussiecol39@yahoo.com] 
Sent: July 30, 2004 8:17 AM
To: AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AVR-Chat] DC-DC converter


Hi guys,

I am designing a university project, a hand-held printer using the 
AVR and a small thermal printer. For portability I want to use 4 x 
2300mAh AA batteries in serial/parallel to provide me with 3V.

The printer runs on 5V but consumes over 3.5A peak, so I require a DC-
DC converter circuit (or at least a starting point) to provide 3V at 
5A peak.

Has anyone designed anything like this, or can give me some advice? 
Maybe someone has an idea for a better battery for me to use?

Cheers
Col




 
Yahoo! Groups Links



 


- Scanned for viruses by MessageLabs on behalf of Tesco Corporation -

- Scanned for viruses by MessageLabs on behalf of Tesco Corporation -

Re: DC-DC converter

2004-07-31 by C Sizer

Hi Cobb,

I probably didn't explain myself too well, plus my typo where I said 
I wanted 3V from the converter, I really meant 5V.

I have 4 batteries (this is the maximum room I have in my case). The 
printer runs from 5V and consumes 3.5A peak. The idea was to connect 
2 pairs in series to give 3V, and then connect the 2 x 3V cells in 
parallel to double the capacity.

As this is a hand held device I do not want to connect all 4 in 
series and use a regulator to bring it down to 5V, thats a waste of 
power as I want maximum operating time from the device. 

Others have raised the issue of internal resistance which I had not 
considered, and suggest NiMh batteries which would mean I would have 
only 2.4V max to boost to 5V.

Cheers
Col 

--- In AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com, "Cobb, Quentin" <quentin_cobb@t...> 
wrote:
> I don't get it.  You have four AA batteries, so you have 5v if you 
run them
> in series. You want 5v to run the printer.  Why do you need to 
convert
> anything?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: C Sizer [mailto:aussiecol39@y...] 
> Sent: July 30, 2004 8:17 AM
> To: AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [AVR-Chat] DC-DC converter
> 
> 
> Hi guys,
> 
> I am designing a university project, a hand-held printer using the 
> AVR and a small thermal printer. For portability I want to use 4 x 
> 2300mAh AA batteries in serial/parallel to provide me with 3V.
> 
> The printer runs on 5V but consumes over 3.5A peak, so I require a 
DC-
> DC converter circuit (or at least a starting point) to provide 3V 
at 
> 5A peak.
> 
> Has anyone designed anything like this, or can give me some advice? 
> Maybe someone has an idea for a better battery for me to use?
> 
> Cheers
> Col
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> - Scanned for viruses by MessageLabs on behalf of Tesco 
Corporation -
> 
> - Scanned for viruses by MessageLabs on behalf of Tesco 
Corporation -

Re: [AVR-Chat] Re: DC-DC converter

2004-07-31 by Mike Murphree

On Jul 31, 2004, at 9:13 AM, C Sizer wrote:

> Hi Cobb,
>
> I probably didn't explain myself too well, plus my typo where I said
> I wanted 3V from the converter, I really meant 5V.
>
> I have 4 batteries (this is the maximum room I have in my case). The
> printer runs from 5V and consumes 3.5A peak. The idea was to connect
> 2 pairs in series to give 3V, and then connect the 2 x 3V cells in
> parallel to double the capacity.
>
> As this is a hand held device I do not want to connect all 4 in
> series and use a regulator to bring it down to 5V, thats a waste of
> power as I want maximum operating time from the device

So a horse of a different color...

Using a DC-DC converter relieves you from worrying about how to connect 
the batteries.  Pick the right converter topology and go with it.  If 
you use NiMh or NiCd, you may not need the converter at all if you 
connect the batteries in series.   Charging the batteries in anything 
other than the series configuration will be harder too.

You still haven't said what your average current drain is when not in a 
standby condition.

> Others have raised the issue of internal resistance which I had not
> considered, and suggest NiMh batteries which would mean I would have
> only 2.4V max to boost to 5V.

Then don't connect them that way...   Add a boost converter if you must 
to cover the low voltage case of 4.4V when the batteries are drained, 
but it's probably not worth the bother.  NiCd batteries have less 
internal resistance if you can find them.

Mike

Re: [AVR-Chat] Re: DC-DC converter

2004-07-31 by David VanHorn

>
>Then don't connect them that way...   Add a boost converter if you must 
>to cover the low voltage case of 4.4V when the batteries are drained, 
>but it's probably not worth the bother.  NiCd batteries have less 
>internal resistance if you can find them.

NIMH's are fine for this, I'm using 5/4 AF cells at twice that drain with no problems.

Don't charge any nickle based battery in parallel. In theory it's sort of workable, in practice, it dosen't work. 

Maximum volumetric efficiency, is a single cell that fills your battery compartment.

I'd try like hell to avoid any SMPS between the battery and the printhead. 

In some cases, a linear LDO may be more efficient than an SMPS.
Remember, the printhead is only on for a second or two. 

Your static current consumption will be a far bigger impact on battery life, than you think..

Re: [AVR-Chat] Re: DC-DC converter

2004-08-01 by Robert Adsett

At 02:13 PM 7/31/04 +0000, you wrote:
>Hi Cobb,
>
>I probably didn't explain myself too well, plus my typo where I said
>I wanted 3V from the converter, I really meant 5V.
>
>I have 4 batteries (this is the maximum room I have in my case). The
>printer runs from 5V and consumes 3.5A peak. The idea was to connect
>2 pairs in series to give 3V, and then connect the 2 x 3V cells in
>parallel to double the capacity.
>
>As this is a hand held device I do not want to connect all 4 in
>series and use a regulator to bring it down to 5V, thats a waste of
>power as I want maximum operating time from the device.

A few quick calculations on power losses and drain.

Assume 3.5A draw at 5V (1% duty cycle), 30mA draw at 3V (100% duty cycle)
Alkaline cells 1.5V ea., 148 milli-Ohms Internal resistance
Converter efficiency 90% (high, but a starting point)

--- Configuration 1: 2 batteries in series, pairs in parallel, boost 
circuit to 5V for printer.

Internal resistance of pack 148 mOhm

First rough calc give for 3.5A at 5V need 6.5A at 3V but that give a .963V 
drop due to internal resistance.

A quick run through on current draws gives a maximum current out at 5V of a 
little over 3A with an input current from the battery pack of 10A and a 
voltage drop of 1.48V (will the logic circuit still work?).  Higher current 
draws than 10A cause the voltage to droop so far that the output actually 
starts to drop.  It's doubtful that the boost regulator would still work 
even to the 10A point in any case.

Losses: 14.8W in battery pack, 1.5W in the convertor for 16.3W.  At a 1% 
duty cycle that 160mW and 100mA average.
Losses from control circuit 0.1mW and 30mA average, control circuit voltage 
drop .004V

If batteries are 2AH batteries then this would suggest a 15Hr life.  This 
neglects the fact that you can't actually get the required current and the 
effect of high discharge rates.

Note: a 3.5A boost circuit might need a small load to maintain regulation 
which would make this case even worse.

--- Configuration 2: 4 batteries in series for 6V.  Assume printer can 
handle voltage (not a given but simplifies back of the envelope calcs like 
this).

Internal resistance of pack 592 mOhm

3.5A draw gives voltage drop of 2.07V (6V drops to 4, will printer still work?)

Losses 7.2W in battery pack.  At a 1% duty cycle that's 72mW and 35mA average.
Control circuit: 30mA at 3V can be delivered from 17mA at 5V
Control circuit losses 9.2mW, 17mA average

Again assume 2AH batteries: These figures suggest a 42Hr life and you could 
actually get the current you need.

Left out of both of these is that the battery voltage decays over the life 
of the battery (standard End of Discharge for an alkaline appears to be 
0.8V from what I read in the data sheets) and the internal resistance rises.

If your peak draw is short enough using a capacitor to provide the pulse 
makes a lot of sense.

Obviously the profile and duty cycle of your load is going to make a lot of 
difference.

It's a lot easier (and more efficient) to make a low current buck than it 
is to make a high current boost.  For switchers the National simple 
switchers are easy to work with and if the input voltages are low enough so 
are the TI 60500's.

There are more items that could be considered but these are enough to make 
a first pass at determining what is possible.

Robert


" 'Freedom' has no meaning of itself.  There are always restrictions,
be they legal, genetic, or physical.  If you don't believe me, try to
chew a radio signal. "

                         Kelvin Throop, III

Re: [AVR-Chat] Re: DC-DC converter

2004-08-01 by Robert Adsett

At 11:03 PM 7/31/04 -0400, you wrote:
>A quick run through on current draws gives a maximum current out at 5V of a
>little over 3A with an input current from the battery pack of 10A and a
>voltage drop of 1.48V (will the logic circuit still work?).

Actually it's worse than that, this calculation was done assuming 100% 
conversion efficiency.

Robert

" 'Freedom' has no meaning of itself.  There are always restrictions,
be they legal, genetic, or physical.  If you don't believe me, try to
chew a radio signal. "

                         Kelvin Throop, III

Re: [AVR-Chat] Re: DC-DC converter

2004-08-01 by David VanHorn

>
>If your peak draw is short enough using a capacitor to provide the pulse 
>makes a lot of sense.

Indeed it do. Thousands of uF.  If you go fast, with high voltage, then the cap can get smaller. Fast is GOOD with thermal printers.

Move to quarantaine

This moves the raw source file on disk only. The archive index is not changed automatically, so you still need to run a manual refresh afterward.