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Recommendation ideas sought

Recommendation ideas sought

2006-02-20 by anding_eunding

Hi there,

I am new to AVR system as a hobbiest.  May I ask a couple of 
recommendations for two things I need?

1. Low cost combined JTAG programmer and debugger. I found one at 
the microcontrollershop.  Looks good (apart from the odd shape).  
Any others worth looking at?
http://microcontrollershop.com/product_info.php?
cPath=110_53&products_id=584&osCsid=0a3815b60abe1abbe0c75306dc043273


2. C Compiler.  Budget is in the range $0-$200, which gives me GCC 
and CodeVision (sorry Imagecraft just didn't look like it was for 
me).  Cheaper is better but my time is worth something too and I'm 
prepared to pay for value.  I noticed that now AVR Studio has GCC 
integrated, potentially that's very helpful I would guess.  Could I 
get some opinions on the relative merits of GCC+AVR Studio and 
CodeVision? (If I could understand the practical differences I could 
decide if it's worth the price difference to me)

Many thanks!

Re: [AVR-Chat] Recommendation ideas sought

2006-02-20 by David Kelly

On Mon, Feb 20, 2006 at 06:34:15AM -0000, anding_eunding wrote:
> Hi there,
> 
> I am new to AVR system as a hobbiest.  May I ask a couple of 
> recommendations for two things I need?
> 
> 1. Low cost combined JTAG programmer and debugger. I found one at 
> the microcontrollershop.  Looks good (apart from the odd shape).  
> Any others worth looking at?
> http://microcontrollershop.com/product_info.php?
> cPath=110_53&products_id=584&osCsid=0a3815b60abe1abbe0c75306dc043273

I have been most pleased with my ECROS Ice Cube for $40. Spend the extra
$5 to get the 12" ribbon cable and cable adapter as the Ice Cube is
small but doesn't always fit inside what you are working on.
http://www.ecrostech.com/Products/AvrJtagIce/Intro.htm

The Ice Cube is slower than my USB JTAGICE mk-II but works on my low
power design where the mkII does not.

> 2. C Compiler.  Budget is in the range $0-$200, which gives me GCC 
> and CodeVision (sorry Imagecraft just didn't look like it was for 
> me).  Cheaper is better but my time is worth something too and I'm 
> prepared to pay for value.  I noticed that now AVR Studio has GCC 
> integrated, potentially that's very helpful I would guess.  Could I 
> get some opinions on the relative merits of GCC+AVR Studio and 
> CodeVision? (If I could understand the practical differences I could 
> decide if it's worth the price difference to me)

The AVR is blessed in that GCC for AVR is very very good. The AVR has
separate code address space and separate data address space. GCC doesn't
know very well how to handle that situation. Some will never see the
issue as everything is defaulted to sane behavior. There are macros and
functions to wrap data which is only in FLASH. Other compilers have
special variable types so the compiler automagically knows to use the
correct instructions for access. Its not really major, but would be nice
to have.

I have not used the latest AVR Studio. My AVR project is currently in
production so mostly these days I only use the source code to answer
obscure questions about its function. That means I'm not going to change
anything in my environment.

-- 
David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@HiWAAY.net
========================================================================
Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad.

RE: [AVR-Chat] Recommendation ideas sought

2006-02-25 by Chuck Hackett

> From: anding_eunding
> 
> I am new to AVR system as a hobbiest.  May I ask a couple of
> recommendations for two things I need?

I too am a hobbyist just starting on AVRs

> 1. Low cost combined JTAG programmer and debugger.

I can echo David Kelly's positive comments on the ECROS Ice-Cube
(http://www.ecrostech.com/Products/AvrJtagIce/Intro.htm) JTAG device.  I use one
with my STK-500.

> ....
> 2. C Compiler.  Budget is in the range $0-$200, which gives me GCC
> and CodeVision (sorry Imagecraft just didn't look like it was for
> me). ....

I have found GCC to be a nice compiler and I don't think you'll go wrong using
it to get started.  You might outgrow it someday but by then you'll be better
able to evaluate the differences.

Cheers,

Chuck Hackett
"Good judgment comes from experience, experience comes from bad judgment"
7.5" gauge Union Pacific Northern (4-8-4) 844
http://www.whitetrout.net/Chuck

ZBasic

2006-02-26 by stevech

Though I'm an old fool C and ASM coder, I just gave "ZBasic" a try. This is
a virtual machine running in an AtMega32 that interprets bytecodes generated
by a compiler that's much like Visual Basic. Library supports ints, longs,
singles and all the AVR I/O devices. Pretty neat. The bytecodes go into a
32K or bigger fast serial EEPROM.

Runs pretty fast and has very high code density. Compiler and IDE are good.
Takes 1-2 seconds to download a few hundred bytecodes and run; just edit,
hit F5 and it's running. Serial port interface.

You have to buy his chip or PC board (24 pin DIP).

I don't work for this outfit:

http://www.zbasic.net/forum/
http://www.zbasic.net

Re: [AVR-Chat] ZBasic

2006-02-26 by Ian Drennan

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> Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 23:20:52 -0800
> Subject: [AVR-Chat] ZBasic
> Reply-To: AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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>
> Though I'm an old fool C and ASM coder, I just gave "ZBasic" a try. This is
> a virtual machine running in an AtMega32 that interprets bytecodes generated
> by a compiler that's much like Visual Basic. Library supports ints, longs,
> singles and all the AVR I/O devices. Pretty neat. The bytecodes go into a
> 32K or bigger fast serial EEPROM.
>
> Runs pretty fast and has very high code density. Compiler and IDE are good.
> Takes 1-2 seconds to download a few hundred bytecodes and run; just edit,
> hit F5 and it's running. Serial port interface.
>
> You have to buy his chip or PC board (24 pin DIP).
>
> I don't work for this outfit:
>
> http://www.zbasic.net/forum/
> http://www.zbasic.net
>
>
>
>
>  
>
>
>
>
>   
I was wondering if the ZX-40 could be plugged into my STK500 for 
development using the Z-Basic IDE. Anyone here tried this?

Ian

Re: [AVR-Chat] ZBasic

2006-02-26 by Mike Perks

Ian Drennan wrote:

> stevech wrote:
> >
> > Though I'm an old fool C and ASM coder, I just gave "ZBasic" a try. 
> This is
> > a virtual machine running in an AtMega32 that interprets bytecodes 
> generated
> > by a compiler that's much like Visual Basic. Library supports ints, 
> longs,
> > singles and all the AVR I/O devices. Pretty neat. The bytecodes go 
> into a
> > 32K or bigger fast serial EEPROM.
> >
> > Runs pretty fast and has very high code density. Compiler and IDE 
> are good.
> > Takes 1-2 seconds to download a few hundred bytecodes and run; just 
> edit,
> > hit F5 and it's running. Serial port interface.
> >
> > You have to buy his chip or PC board (24 pin DIP).
> >
> > I don't work for this outfit:
> >
> > http://www.zbasic.net/forum/
> > http://www.zbasic.net
> >
>
> I was wondering if the ZX-40 could be plugged into my STK500 for
> development using the Z-Basic IDE. Anyone here tried this?


This is not the same kind of architecture as say Bascom for example. 
Your Basic program gets compiled into an intermediate language form 
which is downloaded to a SPI EEPROM. The virtual machine inside the 
ATmega32 then interprets the program. I have written an introduction to 
ZBasic system which explains its architecture and compares it to other 
systems. See my articles page: 
http://home.austin.rr.com/perks/micros/Articles/

The advantage of this system is that is it very quick for prototyping 
and supports a huge function library. Many people also use this chip 
(and its predecessor BasicX) in production systems as well. See my 
website for articles and projects for AVRs, ZBasic and BasicX.

Mike
http://home.austin.rr.com/perks/micros/

Re: ZBasic

2006-02-26 by anding_eunding

There are a few competing systems out there.  Personally I like this 
one, the Cubloc:

http://www.comfiletech.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=3

It has an Atmega128 at 18MHz, and the price is good.

(I'm just a hobbyest - not commercially involved with anyone)

Andrew

--- In AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com, "stevech" <stevech@...> wrote:
>
> Though I'm an old fool C and ASM coder, I just gave "ZBasic" a 
try. This is
> a virtual machine running in an AtMega32 that interprets bytecodes 
generated
> by a compiler that's much like Visual Basic. Library supports 
ints, longs,
> singles and all the AVR I/O devices. Pretty neat. The bytecodes go 
into a
> 32K or bigger fast serial EEPROM.
> 
> Runs pretty fast and has very high code density. Compiler and IDE 
are good.
> Takes 1-2 seconds to download a few hundred bytecodes and run; 
just edit,
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> hit F5 and it's running. Serial port interface.
> 
> You have to buy his chip or PC board (24 pin DIP).
> 
> I don't work for this outfit:
> 
> http://www.zbasic.net/forum/
> http://www.zbasic.net
>

RE: [AVR-Chat] ZBasic

2006-02-26 by stevech

Cubloc, basicX, ZBasic - these are all interpreted p-code. Their libraries
include routines for the AVR on-chip devices (I2C, A/D, etc). I'm evaluating
ZBasic because it has a superb compiler, multitasking (preemptive),
Interrupt servers, and looking at the generated P-code, the compiler is very
smart.

I just started this - I measured 260,000 interations per second incrementing
a long while the Virtual machine was handling their default 1000 interrupts
per second for clock ticks. Seems pretty good. For sure, these VM based
chips are not for some industrial applications, but it's sure fast to
develop an application - esp. with the ZBasic similarity to Visual Basic and
that it does malloc/free() type of memory allocation for storage of strings.


Interesting, anyway. The ready-to-use ZX24 is cheap enough for a hobby
thing.

As to using the chips (ZX40) in an STK500, as long as you have the specific
crystal freq and one of the compatible HIGH SPEED, SPI EEPROMs, it should
work, I think.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Mike Perks
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2006 12:57 AM
To: AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AVR-Chat] ZBasic

Ian Drennan wrote:

> stevech wrote:
> >
> > Though I'm an old fool C and ASM coder, I just gave "ZBasic" a try. 
> This is
> > a virtual machine running in an AtMega32 that interprets bytecodes 
> generated
> > by a compiler that's much like Visual Basic. Library supports ints, 
> longs,
> > singles and all the AVR I/O devices. Pretty neat. The bytecodes go 
> into a
> > 32K or bigger fast serial EEPROM.
> >
> > Runs pretty fast and has very high code density. Compiler and IDE 
> are good.
> > Takes 1-2 seconds to download a few hundred bytecodes and run; just 
> edit,
> > hit F5 and it's running. Serial port interface.
> >
> > You have to buy his chip or PC board (24 pin DIP).
> >
> > I don't work for this outfit:
> >
> > http://www.zbasic.net/forum/
> > http://www.zbasic.net
> >
>
> I was wondering if the ZX-40 could be plugged into my STK500 for
> development using the Z-Basic IDE. Anyone here tried this?


This is not the same kind of architecture as say Bascom for example. 
Your Basic program gets compiled into an intermediate language form 
which is downloaded to a SPI EEPROM. The virtual machine inside the 
ATmega32 then interprets the program. I have written an introduction to 
ZBasic system which explains its architecture and compares it to other 
systems. See my articles page: 
http://home.austin.rr.com/perks/micros/Articles/

The advantage of this system is that is it very quick for prototyping 
and supports a huge function library. Many people also use this chip 
(and its predecessor BasicX) in production systems as well. See my 
website for articles and projects for AVRs, ZBasic and BasicX.

Mike
http://home.austin.rr.com/perks/micros/



 
Yahoo! Groups Links

Re: [AVR-Chat] ZBasic

2006-02-26 by Mike Perks

stevech wrote:

> Cubloc, basicX, ZBasic - these are all interpreted p-code. Their libraries
> include routines for the AVR on-chip devices (I2C, A/D, etc). I'm 
> evaluating
> ZBasic because it has a superb compiler, multitasking (preemptive),
> Interrupt servers, and looking at the generated P-code, the compiler 
> is very
> smart.

ZBasic is much more modern than BasicX and more than 2x faster so I 
would prefer that.

Cubloc and ZBasic are different and address different markets. Informal 
measurements by other folks indicate that the ZBasic runtime is actually 
faster than the Cubloc runtime despite the fact that the two clocks at 
14.7 MHz and 18 MHz respectively. ZBasic supports multitasking (it is 
really more round robin with the ability to lock a task than preemptive) 
whereas Cubloc doesn't to my knowledge. The function library and Basic 
language for ZBasic is more advanced whereas Cubloc supports ladder 
logic and more memory.

I am expert with ZBasic but still learning about Cubloc.

> I just started this - I measured 260,000 interations per second 
> incrementing
> a long while the Virtual machine was handling their default 1000 
> interrupts
> per second for clock ticks. Seems pretty good. For sure, these VM based
> chips are not for some industrial applications, but it's sure fast to
> develop an application - esp. with the ZBasic similarity to Visual 
> Basic and
> that it does malloc/free() type of memory allocation for storage of 
> strings.

I not sure how you got 260,000 iterations per second. ZBasic is very 
fast (compared with a lowly Stamp for example) but not that fast. My 
test program run at just under 92,000 increments per second with nothing 
else going on. I have posted the code on the ZBasic forum 
http://www.zbasic.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=706 for further discussion 
there.

Mike
http://home.austin.rr.com/perks/micros/
(AVRs, ZBasic and BasicX articles and projects)

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