Ravi, I agree with, or am willing to compromise, on everything you
said in your past two messages.
The only thing I REALLY don't like is the Waldorf
example "location.name.initials.category", which I feel is
backwards. You really need the bigger groupings/categories first,
and the smallest details last, like we've already talked about.
Otherwise, the sort order of the files on your disk is nearly
worthless. I think they'd be much better off with
either "category.initials.patchname.location" (essentially what we've
talked about doing) or "initials.category.patchname.location" (if you
thought that the author was the most important thing in
grouping/sorting the files).
Asking Dave about the temp/compare feature is the best plan. Can't
make the right decision without the necessary info.
If the temp/compare feature is a "no go", or very "iffy" then we keep
the location parm. Otherwise, we can lose it.
Regarding the rest of your comments...
1) Patch/Bank Indicator - I think we may end up with more banks than
you imagine, but I agree that there will almost certainly remain a
much larger number of patch files. I still think it's worth being
consistent, and keeping both a patch and bank indicator of some sort
at the very front, but I'm willing to compromise. Like I said in my
last message, why don't we drop both the patch and the bank
indicator, since you WILL be able tell what the file is by the
Location parm.
2) Short Abbreviations - Honestly, I'm glad to hear you don't like
them. I prefer full names, or longer (standard) abbreviations of the
same length. I mistakenly assumed you wanted "shorter" when you
said "streamlined", so I was trying to compromise! :)
3) Abbreviations Suggestions - What do you think about a three letter
abbreviation for the categories? I've thought about most of them,
and I think three letters might be clear enough. If not, we could
bump them all up to four letters. IF we were to keep patch and bank
designations, I think that "pch" and "bnk" would work OK, but again,
I'm willing to drop them both.
4) Variable Length Category Names - I appreciate your point about not
being "ramrod stiff" on the length of the category names. However,
I've been involved in way too many IT projects in which we had tons
of inconsistent data to scrub, and it was SO not fun. It really
wastes a lot of hours. IF we end up with LOTS of files, and some
files use "piano", some use "Pf", some use "PNO", and some
use "PIAN", etc... the purpose of having the categories in the first
place is all but defeated. Someone looking for all the Piano patches
has to look all over, rather than finding them ALL sorted together in
one nice neat spot on their file list. I guess we could let people
submit things in any fashion they want, but I'd want the "Official
Patch Archives" to be renamed to an exact standard that we get a
consensus on. Again, we're dealing with that mess right now on the
EX5 - many patch authors have used the Categories very haphazardly,
or haven't used them at all. This has made it quite tough to put
together a useful database of all patches organized by category.
5) Suggested Category Names beta 2 - Following is the original two
letter abbreviated list, along with sets done with three and four
letters. Are they all clear with three letters, or should we go to
four? Looking at them, I think three is good. In some cases, I
think the three letter abbreviations are actually more clear than the
fours.
Pf - Pno - Pian - Piano (used for piano, electric piano, clavinet,
harpsichord, etc.)
Cp - CrP - PrcC - Chromatic Percussion (tuned percussion like agogos
and timpani)
Or - Org - Orgn - Organ
Gt - Gtr - Guit - Guitar
Ba - Bas - Bass - Bass
St - Str - Strg - Strings/Orchestral
En - Ens - Ensb - Ensemble (combos like strings/brass, etc.)
Br - Brs - Bras - Brass (like trumpet, t-bone)
Rd - Red - Reed - Reed (like sax, clarinet)
Pi - Pip - Pipe - Pipe (like flute)
Ld - LdS - Lead - Lead Synth
Pd - Pad - Padd - Synth Pad
Fx - EFX - FXFX - Synth Sound Effects
Et - Eth - Ethn - Ethnic
Pc - Prc - Perc - Percussive
Se - SEF - SEFX - Sound Effects (PROPOSE WE DELETE)
Dr - Drm - Drum - Drums
Sc - Cmp - Comp - Synth Comping
Vo - voc - Vocl - Vocal
Co - Cbo - Comb - Combination
Wv - Wav - Wave - Material Wave (PROPOSE WE DELETE)
Sq - Seq - Seqn - Sequence
I think we should eliminate "Sound Effects", since it overlaps
somewhat with "Synth Sound Effects", and the Evolver is not going to
be particularly capable of sample realistic "Sound Effects" like door
slams, gunshots, etc. We should also eliminate "Material Wave",
which has no meaning for a PATCH, anyway. We might consider
combining Brass, Reed, and Pipe into "Horn"; again, it's not like
the Evolver is a sample playback synth. I'd further recommend that
we don't break Piano into "Piano" and "Electric Piano". There are SO
many "in between" piano sounds that it's sometimes hard to judge.
Plus, once again, the Evolver isn't a sample playback machine. We
*might* also consider dropping the "Synth Comping" category, since I
think that "comping" pretty much means using chords to most people,
and the Evolver is monophonic.
Ski
www.ex5tech.com
EX5Tech Evolver forum:
http://www.ex5tech.com/ex5ubb_cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum&f=23
--- In DSI_Evolver@yahoogroups.com, "Ravi Sharma" <noision1@h...>
wrote:
> And to make matter's worse, I was looking over at the Waldorfians
to see
> what they were doing, and I see that they do include bank midifiles
as well
> as a zip of the individual files in the format of
> location.name.initials.category.
>
> I see some merit in having patch locations first. Especially if you
want to
> create a bank, etc, etc, but on the other hand, when people are
merely
> saving single patches they won't necessarily be caring about
filling up each
> slot and vice versa.
>
> There are so many competing theories and needs . . . aakk.
>
> You know what? I am going to drop Dave a line and ask him whether
the
> temp/compare patch feature request will actually happen. If it
will, it will
> simplify our lives so much since all single patches will not need a
location
> to be listed.
>
> What does anyone think?
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: "Ravi Sharma" <noision1@h...>
> >Reply-To: DSI_Evolver@yahoogroups.com
> >To: DSI_Evolver@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: Re: [Evolver] Re: Patch/Bank File Nomenclature
> >Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 20:05:03 -0500
> >
> >I hear you when you say that without patch *and* bank indications
then the
> >alphebetizing will lay the banks after the a patches. But really,
how many
> >bank files are there going to be as opposed to patch files.
> >
> >I can compromise if you feel a strong need to indicate patch, but
given
> >that
> >the vast majority of patch files will be single files, it seems
like a lot
> >of "patch" nomenclature when such is the norm, not the exception
like a
> >bank file.
> >
> >I agree with the idea to have 3 digits follwing the bank letter.
That makes
> >sense totally
> >
> >I can't get behind the idea of p and b for patch and bank, because
while
> >perhaps more streamlined, streamlining should not sacrifice easy
> >comprehension. For a newcomer, what is p and b supposed to mean?
Can't say
> >that the term bank is too confusion. For the same reason I don't
like two
> >letter abreivations, because why should a creator or a user have
to refer
> >to
> >some list to get it right or figure out what it is. Your list is a
good
> >start though, although I think we should expand it to three or
even four
> >letters where necessary. Like the patch name, I think we should do
two
> >things in regard to category naming. First we should not ask for a
set
> >amount of letters. i.e. people should be able to use bass and lead
and org
> >if they want. But we should simulaneously like you have started to
do, set
> >forth a "suggested" list of terms for category definition.
> >
> >Ravi
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >From: "ski_ex5tech <ex5tech@e...>" <ex5tech@e...>
> > >Reply-To: DSI_Evolver@yahoogroups.com
> > >To: DSI_Evolver@yahoogroups.com
> > >Subject: [Evolver] Re: Patch/Bank File Nomenclature
> > >Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 00:53:17 -0000
> > >
> > >Well, if you really want to streamline... technically, you don't
need
> > >the word "bank" in front of the bank files,
> > >either. "organ.RIS_hamncheese.A005.mid" would be recognizable
as a
> > >patch file because of the "A005" location,
> > >whereas "RIS_electronica.C.syx" and "SKI_trancevested.ALL.mid"
would
> > >be recognized as bank files because of the "C" and the "ALL"
location
> > >designations.
> > >
> > >I appreciate and agree with the need to streamline, but I still
think
> > >there's merit to putting *something* at the very beginning of the
> > >filename to indicate whether it's a single patch, or a bank file
(or
> > >maybe someday a waveform file). It would sure make things
easier to
> > >sort. If you only label the bank files, then your list of files
> > >starts with some patch files that begin with "a" and some "b"s,
goes
> > >through all the bank files, then finishes with all the rest of
the
> > >patch files.
> > >
> > >How do you feel about a single letter to designate patch vs.
bank as
> > >a prefix in the filename? Something like:
> > >
> > >
> > >"p.organ.RIS_hamncheese.A005.mid" and "b.RIS_electronica.C.syx"
> > >
> > >
> > >BTW, we might consider the practice of always using three digit
> > >numbers in the patch location. Given that they'll be a text
string
> > >with the bank letter in front of them, sticking with three digits
> > >will make it a lot easier to sort in a database!
> > >
> > >
> > >Another way to streamline would be to use two character category
> > >abbreviations. Following is what is used in the EX5 (just as a
> > >starting point for conversation):
> > >
> > >Pf - Piano (used for piano, electric piano, clavinet,
harpsichord,
> > >etc.)
> > >Cp - Chromatic Percussion (tuned percussion like agogos and
timpani)
> > >Or - Organ
> > >Gt - Guitar
> > >Ba - Bass
> > >St - Strings/Orchestral
> > >En - Ensemble (combos like strings/brass, etc.)
> > >Br - Brass (like trumpet, t-bone)
> > >Rd - Reed (like sax, clarinet)
> > >Pi - Pipe (like flute)
> > >Ld - Lead Synth
> > >Pd - Synth Pad
> > >Fx - Synth Sound Effects
> > >Et - Ethnic
> > >Pc - Percussive
> > >Se - Sound Effects
> > >Dr - Drums
> > >Sc - Synth Comping
> > >Vo - Vocal
> > >Co - Combination
> > >Wv - Material Wave (read that "single cycle waveforms")
> > >Sq - Sequence
> > >
> > >While not perfect, this list isn't a bad starting point, though
among
> > >other things, the "Wv" category obviously has no meaning for
patches
> > >(this same list of categories is used to classify samples).
> > >
> > >
> > >Yet another way to streamline/shorten: The patch/bank name
portion
> > >of the filename could be limited to a certain number of
characters,
> > >like 12 or 15 or whatever.
> > >
> > >
> > >Ski
> > >www.ex5tech.com
> > >EX5Tech Evolver forum:
> > >http://www.ex5tech.com/ex5ubb_cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum&f=23
> > >
> > >
> > >--- In DSI_Evolver@yahoogroups.com, "Ravi Ivan Sharma"
> > ><noision1@h...> wrote:
> > > > Good. I think that "patch" is redundant though. I am trying to
> > >streamline everything. If it doesn't have a special "bank"
("wave"?)
> > >prefix, then it is a patch.
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: Ski <ex5tech@e...>
> > > > To: DSI_Evolver@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2003 3:36 AM
> > > > Subject: [Evolver] Re: Patch Contest / User Forum Soundset
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I agree with your statements below.
> > > >
> > > > Location IS needed for a bank file, since a bank file can be
> > >either a
> > > > single bank, or all three banks. And yes, I agree that
> > >the "sound
> > > > category" really isn't needed for banks. If we used it,
99% of
> > >them
> > > > would be "Misc". I like your idea to actually put the
> > >text "bank" at
> > > > the BEGINNING of the filename (rather than denoting it in
the end
> > > > where I'd put it); that keeps bank files sorted together
in a
> > >long
> > > > file list. We're going to put the text "patch" in front of
all
> > >the
> > > > single patch files, too? Actually, if we get the sample
import
> > >thing
> > > > worked out, it might be a real good idea to include the
> > >text "patch"
> > > > in front of a single patch file. Who knows, we might
> > >have "sample"
> > > > files too someday!
> > > >
> > > > Author initials for single patch files is an excellent idea.
> > >Maybe
> > > > it could be optional for bank files, too, for those banks
that
> > >are
> > > > done entirely by one author; I don't know... there'd be a
bit of
> > > > redundancy with the documentation's list of patches. I also
> > >think
> > > > your UNDERSCORE, rather than another PERIOD to separate
author
> > >from
> > > > patch/bank name was insightful. Given that author can be
> > >optional,
> > > > the underscore allows for consistent parsing of the entire
> > >filename,
> > > > because they'd all have the same number of periods in them
(i.e.
> > >you
> > > > could easily programmatically put everything into a real
database
> > >at
> > > > some point).
> > > >
> > > > OK, so here's the next round of examples:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Single Patches (same as last time, but with "patch" in
front)
> > > > --------------
> > > > "patch.bass.RIS_moog1.B45.mid"
> > > > "patch.lead.SKI_dxsqueal.A13.syx"
> > > >
> > > > Banks
> > > > -----
> > > > "bank.RIS_electronica.B.syx" - (a one bank file that loads
to
> > >bank B)
> > > > "bank.SKI_trancevested.ALL.mid" - (a three bank file)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Perhaps the words "patch" and "bank" could be abbreviated
> > >to "pch"
> > > > and "bnk".
> > > >
> > > > And yes... if we get the new feature implemented that let's
you
> > >load
> > > > a patch into any desired location, we can drop the location
from
> > >the
> > > > file name.
> > > >
> > > > BTW - What do you know about me and "DX squeals"? Who have
you
> > >been
> > > > talking to?! I have way too much FM gear... You didn't
get any
> > >of
> > > > my DX patch banks back in the early/mid 80's, did you?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Ski
> > > > www.ex5tech.com
> > > > EX5Tech Evolver forum:
> > > > http://www.ex5tech.com/ex5ubb_cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?
ubb=forum&f=23
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In DSI_Evolver@yahoogroups.com, "Ravi Sharma"
<noision1@h...>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > I wasn't thinking in terms of strict databases, but that
> > >certainly
> > > > can be
> > > > > done later with ease once enought actual patches (and then
> > >later
> > > > banks) are
> > > > > created. First, if we stick to collecting individual
files we
> > >can
> > > > simply
> > > > > have a list or folder containing files file name that
includes
> > >the
> > > > author's
> > > > > initials (optional) (waldorf style) but stated first
rather
> > >than
> > > > after (for
> > > > > sorting ease) hence:
> > > > >
> > > > > "category.initials_sound-name.location.suffix"
> > > > >
> > > > > e.g. "bass.RIS_moog1.B45.mid"
or "lead.SKI_dxsqueal.A13.syx"
> > > > >
> > > > > After we have enough single patches to make up banks, then
> > >anyone
> > > > can simply
> > > > > construct banks adhering (hopefully) to the following
naming
> > >format:
> > > > >
> > > > > "bank.name-of-bank.suffix" (is location of bank required?
If so
> > > > then
> > > > > bank.name-of-bank.location.suffix")
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't believe a category is necessary for banks since
the
> > >name
> > > > can be
> > > > > descriptive itself.
> > > > >
> > > > > Once there are bank files, they should be accompanied by a
> > >simple
> > > > readme.txt
> > > > > file that lists the included patches. Indeed a proper
zipped
> > >bank
> > > > package
> > > > > should have the bank file, the readme.txt file and all the
> > > > individual files
> > > > > zipped up and all represented in both .mid and .syx
format.
> > > > >
> > > > > Databases for the purpose listing these things can be
made by
> > > > individuals
> > > > > such as you me or anyone whenever. The only thing I see
> > >technically
> > > > missing
> > > > > from the naming spec is a create date, however i am
unsure how
> > > > important
> > > > > such is. Technically the original file uploaded should
have a
> > >date
> > > > stamp.
> > > > >
> > > > > I think we are making progress towards a standard naming
scheme
> > > > which will
> > > > > be helpful to maintain maximum user information and
sortability.
> > > > >
> > > > > Of course, if Dave implements the highly desired
compare/temp
> > >patch
> > > > which
> > > > > will load any new single file into the temp patch
location,
> > >then we
> > > > can do
> > > > > away with the location field completely (except perhaps
for
> > >bank
> > > > files if
> > > > > necessary at all). Technically all the fields except name
and
> > > > suffix become
> > > > > optional (although desired). Currently we really *need*
the
> > > > location if
> > > > > anyone is know where the patch will be loaded.
> > > > >
> > > > > Ravi
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >From: "Ski <ex5tech@e...>" <ex5tech@e...>
> > > > > >Reply-To: DSI_Evolver@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > >To: DSI_Evolver@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > >Subject: [Evolver] Re: Patch Contest / User Forum
Soundset
> > > > > >Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 05:46:35 -0000
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Establishing a good set of sound categories, and a
standard
> > > > > >nomenclature for the filenames IS still quite
important. It
> > >will
> > > > be
> > > > > >a HUGE asset as the list of user files grows. It will
also
> > >make
> > > > > >keeping such a database doable. We have tons of EX5
format
> > >files.
> > > > > >The EX5 has categories built into the file names,
however, some
> > > > > >people don't use them, or don't use them well. As a
result,
> > >it's a
> > > > > >lot more difficult prospect for us to create a *useful*
> > >database of
> > > > > >EX5 patches (or "Voices", as Yamaha calls them). We're
> > >working on
> > > > > >it, though.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >I thought of one other little problem regarding Evolver
FILE
> > > > > >nomenclature with respect to the database you'd like to
make,
> > >Ravi.
> > > > > >Given that SOME files will be BANK files, we'll need to
be
> > >sure
> > > > that
> > > > > >all BANK files come with a complete patch list, too.
Patch
> > >names
> > > > on
> > > > > >the patch list would need to use the same format
nomenclature
> > >as
> > > > the
> > > > > >single patch file names. Your database would then need a
> > >minimum
> > > > of
> > > > > >four fields:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >1) The three part patch name
(category.sound_name.location)
> > > > > >
> > > > > >2) The three part file name in which the patch exists
> > > > > >(category.collection_name.location)
> > > > > >
> > > > > >3) The patch author
> > > > > >
> > > > > >4) Date authored
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Ideally, you'd want to break items 1 and 2 into separate
> > >component
> > > > > >fields, giving you a total of 8 fields. Actually I
guess you
> > > > *could*
> > > > > >drop the "category" and "location" part of the FILE name
in the
> > > > > >database, since it would essentially be redundant with
the
> > >info for
> > > > > >each of the individual patches. You'd need to keep that
info
> > >in
> > > > the
> > > > > >actual name of the file, though.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >BTW, this discussion is getting a bit fragged (multiple
> > > > > >threads/emails). Once this project gets underway, it
might be
> > > > easier
> > > > > >to follow if we make a single project specific thread in
the
> > > > EX5Tech
> > > > > >forums. Of course, that's only if everyone's
agreeable. I
> > >don't
> > > > > >want to risk losing participants if some of them dislike
> > >forums.
> > > > And
> > > > > >again, if we run out of space in the Yahoo group, or
have any
> > >other
> > > > > >problems with people uploading files, I can get them via
email
> > >and
> > > > > >host them at ex5tech.com.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Ski
> > > > > >www.ex5tech.com
> > > > > >EX5Tech Evolver forum:
> > > > > >http://www.ex5tech.com/ex5ubb_cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?
ubb=forum&f=23
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >_________________________________________________________________
> >Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online
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> >
>
>
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Re: Patch/Bank File Nomenclature
2003-01-10 by ski_ex5tech <ex5tech@excite.com>