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Re: [Evolver] Compare

Re: [Evolver] Compare

2002-11-23 by Ravi Ivan Sharma

Paul, I don't think it does. I agree, I would love that--essentially a temp location or something like that. I would also love the related feature of a temporary patch dump location. The current scheme where the patch number is built into an individual patch dump is a tradeoff I guess in some ways. I would prefer to have any newly loaded patch (or edited patch) be somewhere temporary so I can decide where (and if to place it).
I think the instant solution is to set up your own temp spot, like patch 128 or something where you always copy a patch you want to edit and then edit and save constantly in that spot. Then you can flip around and find a place for it. Its a couple of extra steps but effective. But not totally realistic I realize, as tweaking happens instantly without such forethought a lot.
Additionally, perhaps we will all develop a protocol for saving single dumped patches into say number 128 instead of wherever they happen to be, because it can be counterproductive to go and move a patch out of the the way just to audition a new one.
I would love it perhaps if Dave would devise (and endorse) the most efficient method if I am missing something here.
Ravi
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Nagle
Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 12:04 PM
Subject: [Evolver] Compare

Anyone know if the Evolver has a patch compare facility?

After extensive tweaking, it's sometimes hard to know if I've improved
a patch - or made it worse! Being able to compare would be great as,
with no patch names, it's not always easy choosing another patch to
overwrite before doing an a/b comparison. I looked in the manual but
didn't find one...

Paul


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Re: [Evolver] Compare

2002-11-23 by J.D. McEachin

On Sat, 23 Nov 2002, Ravi Ivan Sharma wrote:

> Paul, I don't think it does. I agree, I would love that--essentially a
> temp location or something like that. I would also love the related
> feature of a temporary patch dump location.

It shouldn't be that difficult to do.  It's what should have been done in
the first place.  Edit compare has been a pretty standard feature since
the DX7 popularized it (not sure if it was the first but that's not the
point).

When you load a patch into this kind of synth, it copies the patch data
out of non-volatile memory into an edit buffer in RAM.  Edit compare is
usually just a matter of changing the data pointer from the edit buffer to
the original patch, and back again.  It's dirt simple - I know, I cowrote
the Europa upgrade for the Jupiter 6, and it has this feature, because we
thought it's something that every synth should have.


> The current scheme where
> the patch number is built into an individual patch dump is a tradeoff
> I guess in some ways.

I think that's a terrible design choice.  If you're dumping the current
patch, it should, when loaded back into the synth, go into the edit
buffer.  How do people typically use individual patch dumps?  For trading
patches, and for taking a snapshot of the synth's setup to save with
whatever song they're working on.  In either case, you would almost always
want it saved to the edit buffer, not to a particular location in
non-volatile memory.

Including the patch # with the patch data DOES make sense when doing a
bulk dump.  And an editor/librarian should be able to request the dump of
a particular patch.

JDM

PS Yes, I know patches are called programs in Evolver-speak.

Compare Function (task for list)

2002-11-24 by Ravi Ivan Sharma

Okay, so it appears safe to assume that most people think that 
a "Preset Compare" function and/or a temp patch location is a 
desireable feature of any synth. (I do!).

I have it from on high that such requests have greater likelihood of 
implementation if some basic guidelines are adhered to:

1) the change should not affect previous Programs.
2) the change must be implemented with the current 
switches/displays, without too much confusion.
3) the new feature should be in addition to current operation, as 
opposed to replacement.
4) the feature suggestion should be accompanied by a description of 
how it actually will be implemented and operate.

So, for this "compare feature" how exactly will it function on the 
evolver--what is the best way? (i.e., hold something down? double 
click? etc.) and consider all the consequences.


Let's discuss and see if we can nail it down (and then we might see 
it!).

I will start. Here are my thoughts on Compare/edit buffer:

First, in regard to "Compare" and edited patches, I suggest a single 
edit buffer. Some synths have one temp location and as a soon as you 
tweak another (not merely switch patches) you lose it. The Pulse is 
like this. One edit buffer: you can change to another patch, but if 
you tweak another, then the newly tweaked patch loads into the edit 
buffer and the former patch's edits are lost. On the other hand, the 
Waldorf microQ has 16 edit buffers that allow up to 16 patches to be 
in an edited state--first in, first out. More appears better, but at 
least in the mQ such are justified by the fact that that unit is 
multitimbral and multiple edit buffers allows full editing a multi-
patch. I think therefore that the Evolver can live with one patch at 
a time, and certainly that is more simple to implement according to 
the guidelines above, and simple to use.
 
Second, I believe that the edited patch should be indicated by the 
appearance of one of the decimal points so far unused on the display.
(another alternative is to flash the display--but then how do you 
show compare mode--add dots too?)

Third, Such dot could then flash to indicate "compare." Compare mode 
would disallow tweaks. Like the uQ, attempted tweaks while in 
compare mode should flash CMP or something like that on the screen 
to alert you that your attempted tweaks are futile (I like this 
about the uQ--conversely in the Pulse, while in compare mode, if you 
forgetfully tweak, you see the numbers in the dispay changing but 
nothing really is happening--lulling you into a belief that you are 
doing something--until you realize you are in compare mode and those 
last twently subtle tweaks were indeed subtle). :)

Fourth, in order to toggle in and out of compare mode, one will 
press shift and main buttons simultaneously. Switching to another 
patch location while in compare mode would take you out of it (such 
would still mainain the edit of the original patch but when you 
return to the last edited patch it will not be in compare mode 
anymore).

Fifth, in order to "restore" the original patch (i.e ditch the 
edits) without editing another patch (which will do it too) one 
presses shift and reset. I don't like the idea with a shift-main and 
hold/wait solution (sort of like on the Pulse) because holding the 
main button down already has a special function to write a patch and 
even with the shift button in play, presents possible mis-presses 
and potential patch data loss. On the other hand, "shift-reset" 
seems to make sense. (I think a shift-main and hold should do 
nothing-leave you in the mode that it took you. Only holding the 
main button alone should put you into patch-write mode as currently 
implememented).

Sixth, speaking of Patch-write mode. When in such mode, (i.e. 
flashing light next to main button) when you scroll to any new patch 
location, you should be able to play and hear patch that you will be 
replacing. This allows for meaningful placement and less mistaken 
loss of patch data.

Seventh, any recieved single patch sysex data will place the new 
patch into the edit buffer and can be signified by "TMP" which 
location should preceed bank 1, patch 1. (incedentally this TMP 
buffer would always be the actual location of an edited patch--upon 
editing location 12 for example, location 12 would show a decimal 
place indicating that really you are observing the TMP location--
i.e. you could scroll to the TMP location and hear the same edit 
version as what appears to be in location 12, either way). The user 
will have to then execute a patch-save to place the new patch in a 
desired location. A big benefit of using this TMP location for newly 
recieved patches is that it will allow a midi sequence to include 
embedded actual patches to be loaded and played on the Evolver 
during the sequence. (not just patch changes)! Good right?

Eighth, I think that is it.

Comments please! What did I forget? What is better?

Ravi

Re: Compare Function (task for list)

2002-11-24 by Ravi Ivan Sharma

I will add a couple of things:

--- In DSI_Evolver@y..., "Ravi Ivan Sharma" <noision1@h...> wrote:
> Second, I believe that the edited patch should be indicated by the 
> appearance of one of the decimal points so far unused on the 
display.
> (another alternative is to flash the display--but then how do you 
> show compare mode--add dots too?)

-- or if flashing, then flashing CMP in comp mode back and forth 
with the patch number -- Although I think constant flashing while 
tweaking will be irritating, better to use the dots.
 
> Fourth, in order to toggle in and out of compare mode, one will 
> press shift and main buttons simultaneously. 

-- When you "shift-main" in order to toggle back and forth from 
compare mode, the row and columc lights should remain where they are 
to keep you informed of your last tweaked parameter.

Ravi

RE: [Evolver] Compare Function (task for list) - New Function

2002-11-25 by Don Gothard (dg)

Here's the number one wish I have and should be easy to implement
without to much interface trouble.
And should make the Evolver truly Evolve...

Osc 3 Shape and Osc 4 Shape as a modulation destination.

1) Added at the end of the Destinations shouldn't affect previous
programs I would think.
2) Again no buttons would need to change just some text on mod
destinations SH3 & SH4 or OS3 & OS4
3) New Feature
4) See 1-3 above

Seems to meet all the requirements.

Thanks,
Don
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ravi Ivan Sharma [mailto:noision1@...] 
> Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 2:02 PM
> To: DSI_Evolver@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Evolver] Compare Function (task for list)
> 
> 
> Okay, so it appears safe to assume that most people think that 
> a "Preset Compare" function and/or a temp patch location is a 
> desireable feature of any synth. (I do!).
> 
> I have it from on high that such requests have greater likelihood of 
> implementation if some basic guidelines are adhered to:
> 
> 1) the change should not affect previous Programs.
> 2) the change must be implemented with the current 
> switches/displays, without too much confusion.
> 3) the new feature should be in addition to current operation, as 
> opposed to replacement.
> 4) the feature suggestion should be accompanied by a description of 
> how it actually will be implemented and operate.
>

Re: [Evolver] Compare Function (task for list) - New Function

2002-11-25 by Paul Nagle

On Sun, 24 Nov 2002 21:55:54 -0600, "Don Gothard (dg)"
<gothard@...> wrote:

>Here's the number one wish I have and should be easy to implement
>without to much interface trouble.
>And should make the Evolver truly Evolve...
>
>Osc 3 Shape and Osc 4 Shape as a modulation destination.

Absolutely vital feature - and I think Dave *does* intend this but
just doesn't want to start adding features until he's sure the OS is
totally solid first.

Paul
---
Paul Nagle - SoftRoom Music - www.softroom.co.uk

Re: [Evolver] Compare Function (task for list) - New Function

2002-11-25 by Ravi Ivan Sharma

okay, but what about the fact that the digital osc waveforms have 128 and the mod amounts are -99 to +99 (as are LFO amounts)?
Is the solution to have the mod add or subtract *relative* to what is already set in the osc waveform? And on a 1 to 1 basis? Seems the only way to me.
So, if osc3 waveform is set to 20 and you direct lfo1 to osc3 waveform with an amount of 25, triangle shape, then the osc3 waveshapes will move from 20 up to 55, then steadily down to 1 (wait a bit--for the phantom 0, -1, -2, -3, -4, -3, -2, -1, and ) then move back up to 20 and repeat.
is that it?
Ravi
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 10:55 PM
Subject: RE: [Evolver] Compare Function (task for list) - New Function

Here's the number one wish I have and should be easy to implement
without to much interface trouble.
And should make the Evolver truly Evolve...

Osc 3 Shape and Osc 4 Shape as a modulation destination.

1) Added at the end of the Destinations shouldn't affect previous
programs I would think.
2) Again no buttons would need to change just some text on mod
destinations SH3 & SH4 or OS3 & OS4
3) New Feature
4) See 1-3 above

Seems to meet all the requirements.

Thanks,
Don



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ravi Ivan Sharma [mailto:noision1@...]
> Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 2:02 PM
> To: DSI_Evolver@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Evolver] Compare Function (task for list)
>
>
> Okay, so it appears safe to assume that most people think that
> a "Preset Compare" function and/or a temp patch location is a
> desireable feature of any synth. (I do!).
>
> I have it from on high that such requests have greater likelihood of
> implementation if some basic guidelines are adhered to:
>
> 1) the change should not affect previous Programs.
> 2) the change must be implemented with the current
> switches/displays, without too much confusion.
> 3) the new feature should be in addition to current operation, as
> opposed to replacement.
> 4) the feature suggestion should be accompanied by a description of
> how it actually will be implemented and operate.
>



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Re: [Evolver] Compare Function (task for list) - New Function

2002-11-25 by Don Gothard (dg)

Having it additive like that sounds exceptable to me and sounds like it would be fairly easy to implement.
Ok and now i'm dreaming here.... What would really be nice in addition would be to also add a Sine wave shape for the LFO's to make the transitions on the OSC Shape a little smoother, and while we are at it why not add the OSC Shape waveforms for the LFO's shapes. Of course all this sounds much more difficult to implement I would think.
Thanks,
Don
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 9:05 AM
Subject: Re: [Evolver] Compare Function (task for list) - New Function

okay, but what about the fact that the digital osc waveforms have 128 and the mod amounts are -99 to +99 (as are LFO amounts)?
Is the solution to have the mod add or subtract *relative* to what is already set in the osc waveform? And on a 1 to 1 basis? Seems the only way to me.
So, if osc3 waveform is set to 20 and you direct lfo1 to osc3 waveform with an amount of 25, triangle shape, then the osc3 waveshapes will move from 20 up to 55, then steadily down to 1 (wait a bit--for the phantom 0, -1, -2, -3, -4, -3, -2, -1, and ) then move back up to 20 and repeat.
is that it?
Ravi
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 10:55 PM
Subject: RE: [Evolver] Compare Function (task for list) - New Function

Here's the number one wish I have and should be easy to implement
without to much interface trouble.
And should make the Evolver truly Evolve...

Osc 3 Shape and Osc 4 Shape as a modulation destination.

1) Added at the end of the Destinations shouldn't affect previous
programs I would think.
2) Again no buttons would need to change just some text on mod
destinations SH3 & SH4 or OS3 & OS4
3) New Feature
4) See 1-3 above

Seems to meet all the requirements.

Thanks,
Don



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ravi Ivan Sharma [mailto:noision1@...]
> Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 2:02 PM
> To: DSI_Evolver@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Evolver] Compare Function (task for list)
>
>;
> Okay, so it appears safe to assume that most people think that
> a "Preset Compare" function and/or a temp patch location is a
> desireable feature of any synth. (I do!).
>
> I have it from on high that such requests have greater likelihood of
> implementation if some basic guidelines are adhered to:
>
> 1) the change should not affect previous Programs.
> 2) the change must be implemented with the current
> switches/displays, without too much confusion.
> 3) the new feature should be in addition to current operation, as
> opposed to replacement.
> 4) the feature suggestion should be accompanied by a description of
> how it actually will be implemented and operate.
>

Re: [Evolver] Compare Function (task for list) - New Function

2002-11-25 by Ravi Ivan Sharma

I am not sure that a sine lfo waveform will have any effect on the sound when one digital osc waveform switches to its neighbor.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 12:07 PM
Subject: Re: [Evolver] Compare Function (task for list) - New Function

Having it additive like that sounds exceptable to me and sounds like it would be fairly easy to implement.
Ok and now i'm dreaming here.... What would really be nice in addition would be to also add a Sine wave shape for the LFO's to make the transitions on the OSC Shape a little smoother, and while we are at it why not add the OSC Shape waveforms for the LFO's shapes. Of course all this sounds much more difficult to implement I would think.
Thanks,
Don
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 9:05 AM
Subject: Re: [Evolver] Compare Function (task for list) - New Function

okay, but what about the fact that the digital osc waveforms have 128 and the mod amounts are -99 to +99 (as are LFO amounts)?
Is the solution to have the mod add or subtract *relative* to what is already set in the osc waveform? And on a 1 to 1 basis? Seems the only way to me.
So, if osc3 waveform is set to 20 and you direct lfo1 to osc3 waveform with an amount of 25, triangle shape, then the osc3 waveshapes will move from 20 up to 55, then steadily down to 1 (wait a bit--for the phantom 0, -1, -2, -3, -4, -3, -2, -1, and ) then move back up to 20 and repeat.
is that it?
Ravi
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 10:55 PM
Subject: RE: [Evolver] Compare Function (task for list) - New Function

Here's the number one wish I have and should be easy to implement
without to much interface trouble.
And should make the Evolver truly Evolve...

Osc 3 Shape and Osc 4 Shape as a modulation destination.

1) Added at the end of the Destinations shouldn't affect previous
programs I would think.
2) Again no buttons would need to change just some text on mod
destinations SH3 & SH4 or OS3 & OS4
3) New Feature
4) See 1-3 above

Seems to meet all the requirements.

Thanks,
Don



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ravi Ivan Sharma [mailto:noision1@...]
> Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 2:02 PM
> To: DSI_Evolver@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Evolver] Compare Function (task for list)
>
>
> Okay, so it appears safe to assume that most people think that
> a "Preset Compare" function and/or a temp patch location is a
> desireable feature of any synth. (I do!).
>
> I have it from on high that such requests have greater likelihood of
> implementation if some basic guidelines are adhered to:
>
> 1) the change should not affect previous Programs.
> 2) the change must be implemented with the current
>; switches/displays, without too much confusion.
> 3) the new feature should be in addition to current operation, as
> opposed to replacement.
> 4) the feature suggestion should be accompanied by a description of
> how it actually will be implemented and operate.
>


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Re: [Evolver] Compare Function (task for list) - New Function

2002-11-25 by Don Gothard (dg)

Hmm maybe not specifically for the OSC Shape, but it would give a differenent sound when using that LFO for Filter, Pitch Etc. with a sine wave.
Don
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 11:45 AM
Subject: Re: [Evolver] Compare Function (task for list) - New Function

I am not sure that a sine lfo waveform will have any effect on the sound when one digital osc waveform switches to its neighbor.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 12:07 PM
Subject: Re: [Evolver] Compare Function (task for list) - New Function

Having it additive like that sounds exceptable to me and sounds like it would be fairly easy to implement.
Ok and now i'm dreaming here.... What would really be nice in addition would be to also add a Sine wave shape for the LFO's to make the transitions on the OSC Shape a little smoother, and while we are at it why not add the OSC Shape waveforms for the LFO's shapes. Of course all this sounds much more difficult to implement I would think.
Thanks,
Don

Re: [Evolver] Compare Function (task for list) - New Function

2002-11-25 by Ravi Ivan Sharma

True. Add it to the feature request table in the database.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 2:37 PM
Subject: Re: [Evolver] Compare Function (task for list) - New Function

Hmm maybe not specifically for the OSC Shape, but it would give a differenent sound when using that LFO for Filter, Pitch Etc. with a sine wave.
Don
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 11:45 AM
Subject: Re: [Evolver] Compare Function (task for list) - New Function

I am not sure that a sine lfo waveform will have any effect on the sound when one digital osc waveform switches to its neighbor.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 12:07 PM
Subject: Re: [Evolver] Compare Function (task for list) - New Function

Having it additive like that sounds exceptable to me and sounds like it would be fairly easy to implement.
Ok and now i'm dreaming here.... What would really be nice in addition would be to also add a Sine wave shape for the LFO's to make the transitions on the OSC Shape a little smoother, and while we are at it why not add the OSC Shape waveforms for the LFO's shapes. Of course all this sounds much more difficult to implement I would think.
Thanks,
Don

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Re: [Evolver] Compare Function (task for list) - New Function

2002-11-25 by Ravi Ivan Sharma

The table is in the database section of our yahoogroups Evolver homepage here:
Ravi
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Nagle
Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 5:57 PM
Subject: Re: [Evolver] Compare Function (task for list) - New Function

On Mon, 25 Nov 2002 16:09:54 -0500, "Ravi Ivan Sharma"
<noision1@...> wrote:

>True. Add it to the feature request table in the database.

Remind me, how do we do this?

Paul

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Re: [Evolver] Compare Function (task for list) - New Function

2002-11-26 by Paul Nagle

On Mon, 25 Nov 2002 18:23:37 -0500, "Ravi Ivan Sharma"
<noision1@...> wrote:

>The table is in the database section of our yahoogroups Evolver homepage here:
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DSI_Evolver/database

Ah, right, can't do anything useful with Yahoogroups, even those
groups I personally moderate <g>

Paul
---
Paul Nagle - SoftRoom Music - www.softroom.co.uk

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