Dave Smith Instruments SYNTHESIZERS

I notice a problem using Evolver, more of an annoyance than something
serious.  I'd be interested if anyone has any feelings about this or another
work around.

The Evolver's architecture begs to be synchronized at all times to a clock
source.  Much of the instrument is designed to work in a BPM-synchronous
fashion.  Examples are LFOs, delays, and of course the sequencer.

So it is only natural that one would want to have the Evolver synched to a
external MIDI clock source like a sequencer.  But there is a problem.

Whenever the Evolver is in external clock sync mode it also responses to
MIDI Start and MIDI Stop commands (and I would hazard to guess MIDI Continue
also).  Again this makes sense most of the time because you want the
sequencer starting when you "roll the tape".

But what if you are just using the Evolver as a "simple" sound source with
no sequencer being used?  LFO sync is still something nice to have.

It was pretty annoying while using the Evolver in a multi-track recording
session with the DAW being the master clock because every time the DAW
"rolled" the sequencer would start.

I searched for an obvious setting in the Evolver to defeat this behavior but
came up dry.

Eventually I hit upon a work around.  I defined a sequence on the Evolver
where line 1, step 1 was a rest and line 1, step 2 was the reset.  So you
get a "no-op" sequence which does not trigger envelopes.  Not a bad work
around.  You still need to neuter the assignments for each of the four lines
though.

I have mixed feelings about this work-around.  I think it does the job fine
but its a bit obscure and requires you to either have this type of sequence
saved with each patch where you don't want a sequence, or using the Sequence
Lock mode.

So I am hesitant to say that Evolver needs a new setting to inhibit its
sequencer from responding to Start/Stop/Continue.  I'm interested what
others think and if there is a simpler way to do this that I just flat out
missed.

Thanks,


drk

www.delora.com/music
www.mp3.com/zdrk
drk.iuma.com

On Mon, 23 Dec 2002 12:34:12 -0500, drK <drk@...> wrote:

>I notice a problem using Evolver, more of an annoyance than something
>serious.  I'd be interested if anyone has any feelings about this or another
>work around.

Well, when I do this (which is often) I simply set the triggering to
be MIDI only for the envelopes. Then the sequencer runs but doesn't
have to be assigned to control anything (although it's fun if it does
control stuff).... simple?

Paul

>Whenever the Evolver is in external clock sync mode it also responses to
>MIDI Start and MIDI Stop commands (and I would hazard to guess MIDI 
>Continue
>also).  Again this makes sense most of the time because you want the
>sequencer starting when you "roll the tape".
>
This is how all hardware sequencers work, right? you press play on the 
master, and the slaves play along in time!

I guess you might be able to setup some master clock disable in your 
sequencer, but I'm not sure how necessary it is. I normally just mute stuff 
at the desk when I don't want to hear it.

>But what if you are just using the Evolver as a "simple" sound source with
>no sequencer being used?  LFO sync is still something nice to have.
>
In MIDI triggering mode it needs MIDI notes to make a noise anyway. Whether 
the sequencer runs with the master or not is irrelevant...



julian


"Give a man a stick of gum and he will chew for a day. Teach him how to 
scrape gum off stuff and he will chew for a lifetime"





_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 limited-time offer: Join now and get 3 months FREE*. 
http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup&xAPID=42&PS=47575&PI=7324&DI=7474&SU= 
http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsg&HL=1216hotmailtaglines_newmsn8ishere_3mf

On 12/23/02 5:55 PM, "mr julian" <jujulilianan@...> wrote:

>> Whenever the Evolver is in external clock sync mode it also responses to
>> MIDI Start and MIDI Stop commands (and I would hazard to guess MIDI
>> Continue
>> also).  Again this makes sense most of the time because you want the
>> sequencer starting when you "roll the tape".
>> 
> This is how all hardware sequencers work, right? you press play on the
> master, and the slaves play along in time!

Well this was big enough issue with the Triton series that they explicitly
disable MIDI START when using the Triton as a tone module.  Sequencer
integrated with their own sound capabilities suffer this issue in general.
the Emu XX-7 series also had this problem but was fixed in a subsequent
release.

> 
> I guess you might be able to setup some master clock disable in your
> sequencer, but I'm not sure how necessary it is. I normally just mute stuff
> at the desk when I don't want to hear it.
> 

yes but I do want to here it.  I want to play the Evolver as an instrument
from external MIDI.

>> But what if you are just using the Evolver as a "simple" sound source with
>> no sequencer being used?  LFO sync is still something nice to have.
>> 
> In MIDI triggering mode it needs MIDI notes to make a noise anyway. Whether
> the sequencer runs with the master or not is irrelevant...
> 
Only if the triggering mode is set appropriately.  And regardless the
sequencer still runs so unless you make the control lines not control
anything they will be affect, which as Paul said may be cool, may be not.


drk

www.delora.com/music
www.mp3.com/zdrk
drk.iuma.com

On 12/23/02 2:00 PM, "Paul Nagle" <paul@...> wrote:

> On Mon, 23 Dec 2002 12:34:12 -0500, drK <drk@...> wrote:
> 
>> I notice a problem using Evolver, more of an annoyance than something
>> serious.  I'd be interested if anyone has any feelings about this or another
>> work around.
> 
> Well, when I do this (which is often) I simply set the triggering to
> be MIDI only for the envelopes. Then the sequencer runs but doesn't
> have to be assigned to control anything (although it's fun if it does
> control stuff).... simple?
> 
> Paul

Yes this was my first attempt but since it is a patch parameter when you
recall another patch it may or may not be set accordingly.  so it isn't
great if your just browsing.  That is why I ended up with the sequencer
trick.  At least once you do that you can set Lock Sequence and change
patches and not need to worry about it.

I do agree that for simple one-off patching your way is simpler and the
better way when saving patches.  I guess too that one can just think of the
four sequencer control lines like another funky LFO, which bad either.

Thanks for the advice,


drk

www.delora.com/music
www.mp3.com/zdrk
drk.iuma.com

> It was pretty annoying while using the Evolver in a multi-track 
recording
> session with the DAW being the master clock because every time the 
DAW
> "rolled" the sequencer would start.


What software are you using? I wonder if it is capable of setting up 
a MIDI Filter that would block such messages from being sent to the 
Evo.

>From: drK <drk@...>

>Sequencer
>integrated with their own sound capabilities suffer this issue in general.
>the Emu XX-7 series also had this problem but was fixed in a subsequent
>release.
>
these are both very different instruments to the evolver.

> > I guess you might be able to setup some master clock disable in your
> > sequencer, but I'm not sure how necessary it is. I normally just mute 
>stuff
> > at the desk when I don't want to hear it.
> >
>
>yes but I do want to here it.  I want to play the Evolver as an instrument
>from external MIDI.
>
OK. well, I think (working on memory here as I don't have the evo with me at 
work) there is a parameter on the same row as the patch and bank select 
parameters. This is called MIDI SYNC and is global.
if you don't want your evolver runnig along with MIDI clock, then turn it 
off... If you want it running sometimes and not others, then turn it on and 
off as required.

>Only if the triggering mode is set appropriately.  And regardless the
>sequencer still runs so unless you make the control lines not control
>anything they will be affect, which as Paul said may be cool, may be not.
>
Sorry, but I really don't get this. From what I can tell here, you are 
complaining about the evolver sequencer running when you press play on your 
master... but you want the MIDI clock input so you can sync the LFO's to 
your master? is this correct?

If thats the case, then I guess there is no way to do what you want, short 
of a MIDI filter either in your master sequencer, or in the MIDI chain 
(Peavey PC1600 will filter certain MIDI messages if you set it to, I'm sure 
there's plenty of other things that can do this too)




julian


"Give a man a stick of gum and he will chew for a day. Teach him how to 
scrape gum off stuff and he will chew for a lifetime"




_________________________________________________________________
STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 3 months FREE*. 
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail&xAPID=42&PS=47575&PI=7324&DI=7474&SU= 
http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsg&HL=1216hotmailtaglines_stopmorespam_3mf

On Mon, 23 Dec 2002 18:48:13 -0500, drK <drk@...> wrote:

>Yes this was my first attempt but since it is a patch parameter when you
>recall another patch it may or may not be set accordingly.  so it isn't
>great if your just browsing.  That is why I ended up with the sequencer
>trick.  At least once you do that you can set Lock Sequence and change
>patches and not need to worry about it.

Ah, I see. Clever. Personally, I never just "browse" <g> - it could be
that my use of the most synths is "odd" compared to normal people.
Which, of course, is part of the fun. 

Hope Dave creates a solution for you. For me, I'm still waiting to be
able to step the sequencer from MIDI notes - I'd probably use a mode
like that all the time. 

Odd, as I said... 8)

Paul

On 12/23/02 6:56 PM, "jpyn8 <jp1@...>" <jp1@...> wrote:

> What software are you using? I wonder if it is capable of setting up
> a MIDI Filter that would block such messages from being sent to the
> Evo.
> 
> 

Unfortunately no there was no way to filter those messages.


drk

www.delora.com/music
www.mp3.com/zdrk
drk.iuma.com

On 12/24/02 2:09 AM, "Paul Nagle" <paul@...> wrote:

> ... I'm still waiting to be
> able to step the sequencer from MIDI notes - I'd probably use a mode
> like that all the time.
> 

Yes that would be a very cool operating feature.  Lots of creative uses for
that.

There may be a way to do it currently if you don't mind doing a bit of a
hack.  Use a second sound module as a "trigger source" and send its audio
output directly into the Evolver's left audio input.  Choose a sound that
has a sharp attack and a sharp decay, no sustain.  Tune it very low - as low
as it can go and still pass through the audio output's inevitable low cut
filter (ac coupling).  Use a sine wave if possible.

One of the Evolver sequencer clocking options is using an external signal on
the left input.  I would think that the above type patch would only trigger
the clocking once per play.  You may have to tweak the settings to get it to
work reliably.

Once it is successfully triggering the Evolver you can simply play the
trigger patch from your controller or sequencer and use that to trigger the
Evolver sequencer.

I haven't tried this yet so it is just a theoretical idea.  But it seems
promising.  I'd still rather have it as you suggest though.


drk

www.delora.com/music
www.mp3.com/zdrk
drk.iuma.com

On 12/24/02 10:18 AM, "Ravi Ivan Sharma" <noision1@...> wrote:

> Stepping the Evolver sequencer per midi note would be cool. Since the Evolver
> can sound so completely different from one step to another, or just slightly
> different--your choice, haveing the evolver's sequencer change values other
> than pitch and having the input midi still control pitch would approximate
> having up to 16 separate synths chained together and firing off sequentially
> as you played. Something an old friend was mentioning to me would be cool a
> cool feature with mulitple Evolvers. But this way you could approximate 16
> using just one with smart sequencing. Am I right?

Yes this is a lot like a "hocking" technique where you vary timbre from note
to note.  Used to do this a lot in the old modular days.  It is also a lot
like the way "round robin" poly assignment algorithms used to work.  Since
there was virtually no way to may two voices in modular identical you would
get these great subtle or not so subtle changes note to note.  The Polymorph
has an operating mode similar to this also.

Man, now I want it!!!!


drk

www.delora.com/music
www.mp3.com/zdrk
drk.iuma.com

>From: "Ravi Ivan Sharma" <noision1@...>

>Similar issues can exist in different types of gear. Midi is a
>pretty broad overlap. I don't think highlighting the non-existence
>of a useful filter to turn off midi start/continue constitutes
>complaining.

I guess I'm worried about too many "features" creeping into the evolver. 
Features bring complexity which brings bugs.... and the particular points 
raiused by the last poster were IMO, simply features of the instrument..... 
the parameter sequences are as much a part of a patch as the LFO 
destinations, and the idea of arbitrarily being able to turn them off 
without also killing LFO seems a bit strange to me.

Then again, I also think the other thing mentioned in this thread, the idea 
of being able to kick along the sequencer with MIDI notes is an excellent 
idea

I guess the thing is, that with a synth this powerful, and a developer like 
dave smith, its maybe a good idea to be careful of what we all wish for.

>Also your "solutions"  have already been mentioned about a week ago.

gee..... nice deduction sherlock. check the "sent" time of my last email. it 
was sent a week ago. Bloody hotmail eh?

Also. who else mentioned the PC1600 as a midi filter? no one else I read. 
and you might find that I was also the first to suggest turing off MIDI 
options in the sequencer (my email previous to the last one I sent) I have 
another way to do it to, if anyone is interested..... If you have a PC, you 
can use HUBIs MIDI loopback to filter out MIDI start/stop without killing 
MIDI clock (if I remember right... it's been a while since I had to use 
HUBIs to get around single client MIDI drivers)


anyway - happy new year from australia.




julian


"Give a man a stick of gum and he will chew for a day. Teach him how to 
scrape gum off stuff and he will chew for a lifetime"








>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: mr julian
>   To: DSI_Evolver@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Monday, December 23, 2002 7:20 PM
>   Subject: Re: [Evolver] OF MIDI Clock and insistent sequencers
>
>
>
>   >From: drK <drk@...>
>
>   >Sequencer
>   >integrated with their own sound capabilities suffer this issue in 
>general.
>   >the Emu XX-7 series also had this problem but was fixed in a subsequent
>   >release.
>   >
>   these are both very different instruments to the evolver.
>
>   > > I guess you might be able to setup some master clock disable in your
>   > > sequencer, but I'm not sure how necessary it is. I normally just 
>mute
>   >stuff
>   > > at the desk when I don't want to hear it.
>   > >
>   >
>   >yes but I do want to here it.  I want to play the Evolver as an 
>instrument
>   >from external MIDI.
>   >
>   OK. well, I think (working on memory here as I don't have the evo with 
>me at
>   work) there is a parameter on the same row as the patch and bank select
>   parameters. This is called MIDI SYNC and is global.
>   if you don't want your evolver runnig along with MIDI clock, then turn 
>it
>   off... If you want it running sometimes and not others, then turn it on 
>and
>   off as required.
>
>   >Only if the triggering mode is set appropriately.  And regardless the
>   >sequencer still runs so unless you make the control lines not control
>   >anything they will be affect, which as Paul said may be cool, may be 
>not.
>   >
>   Sorry, but I really don't get this. From what I can tell here, you are
>   complaining about the evolver sequencer running when you press play on 
>your
>   master... but you want the MIDI clock input so you can sync the LFO's to
>   your master? is this correct?
>
>   If thats the case, then I guess there is no way to do what you want, 
>short
>   of a MIDI filter either in your master sequencer, or in the MIDI chain
>   (Peavey PC1600 will filter certain MIDI messages if you set it to, I'm 
>sure
>   there's plenty of other things that can do this too)
>
>
>
>
>   julian
>
>
>   "Give a man a stick of gum and he will chew for a day. Teach him how to
>   scrape gum off stuff and he will chew for a lifetime"
>
>
>
>
>   _________________________________________________________________
>   STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 3 months FREE*.
>   
>http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail&xAPID=42&PS=47575&PI=7324&DI=7474&SU=
>   
>http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsg&HL=1216hotmailtaglines_stopmorespam_3mf
>
>
>   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>   DSI_Evolver-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 3 months FREE*.  
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail&xAPID=42&PS=47575&PI=7324&DI=7474&SU= 
http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsg&HL=1216hotmailtaglines_smartspamprotection_3mf