Dave Smith Instruments SYNTHESIZERS

> Can the PEK be
> used as a controller?  That is, can it transmit > 4 midi
> notes/vel/aftertouch simultaneously on the same channel?  Can it
> transmit > 1 note on the same channel?

It can transmit all 60 notes+Vel+Aftertouch at a time, only a little latency 
could occur because of the serial midi protocol ;)
Masterkeyboard functions are limited though because all notes are sent to 
midi channel 1-16 or All. The split funtions of the Poly Keyboard in combo 
mode have an effect only on the internal sound engine, means you can't split 
the keyboard in a way that the lower half sends on midi channel 1 and the 
upper half on channel 2.

> Can the knobs be programmed  to send a cc#?

No.
I think it is impossible to find a reasonable allocation of fix controller 
numbers for certain knobs that allow to control various other synths while 
on the other hand the development of programmable knobs would cause 
additional hardware and OS programming complexity beyond reason.

Useful midi control functions would require the possibility to choose 
controller type, CC number, midi channel, value 1, value 2, mode and so on 
per knob. Even specialised units like a Behringer BCR 2000 leave several 
open wishes, therefore any compromise in functionality would have been of 
little use while increasing the cost of the keyboard.

Stefan



----- Original Message ----- 

From: "ach_gott" <ach_gott@...>
To: <DSI_Evolver@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2005 7:02 PM
Subject: [Evolver] PEK as a controller?


>
> I'm seriously digging the keyboard.  It's a little embarrassing to
> admit, but I just love the way it looks and the talk of the keyboard
> action is very exciting.  My Edirol controller is lacking in the
> action, and it's a real hinderance to stylized playing.
>
> But... I already own a Poly and a controller keyboard.  For space
> issues, two large keyboards is out of the question.  Can the PEK be
> used as a controller?  That is, can it transmit > 4 midi
> notes/vel/aftertouch simultaneously on the same channel?  Can it
> transmit > 1 note on the same channel?  Can the knobs be programmed
> to send a cc#?
>
> The last issue is the least important since I can buy a knob box and
> merge the midi if need be.  But the other questions (which are
> really the same question) are paramount.  Selling off two pieces of
> gear that work well together to get one that may not fill my needs
> is a fairly big risk.
>
> Can those of you who have a PEK (PEKers?) address the midi
> transmission?
>
> Thanks,
> eric f
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
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On 27/4/05 11:24 AM, "Stefan Trippler" wrote:


> Useful midi control functions would require the possibility to choose
> controller type, CC number, midi channel, value 1, value 2, mode and so on
> per knob. Even specialised units like a Behringer BCR 2000 leave several
> open wishes, therefore any compromise in functionality would have been of
> little use while increasing the cost of the keyboard.

novayion have several small controllers with memories & overlays.  i had a
play on one last week & they actually felt pretty good.  i *think* it was
the x-station 25...  having the different cc memory sets would be very
useful for people wanting to control several softsysnths within a session...

}:-)


email :
  moose@...

music sites :
  http://www.pigpendigital.com
  http://www.alaskahighway.com
  http://www.mishikawa.com

Many thanks, Stefan. The lack of keyboard split is disappointing, 
since I'd like to use it to control my modular, routing oscillators 
to different paths.  With a good MIDI/CV converter, though I could 
work around it, I think.  Plus, I could route the internal 
sequencers to MIDI as a kind of split... hmmmm...

Studio planning:
What are the dimensions of the PEK?  

Thanks,
eric f

--- In DSI_Evolver@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trippler" 
<trippler@t...> wrote:
> > Can the PEK be
> > used as a controller?  That is, can it transmit > 4 midi
> > notes/vel/aftertouch simultaneously on the same channel?  Can it
> > transmit > 1 note on the same channel?
> 
> It can transmit all 60 notes+Vel+Aftertouch at a time, only a 
little latency 
> could occur because of the serial midi protocol ;)
> Masterkeyboard functions are limited though because all notes are 
sent to 
> midi channel 1-16 or All. The split funtions of the Poly Keyboard 
in combo 
> mode have an effect only on the internal sound engine, means you 
can't split 
> the keyboard in a way that the lower half sends on midi channel 1 
and the 
> upper half on channel 2.
> 
> > Can the knobs be programmed  to send a cc#?
> 
> No.
> I think it is impossible to find a reasonable allocation of fix 
controller 
> numbers for certain knobs that allow to control various other 
synths while 
> on the other hand the development of programmable knobs would 
cause 
> additional hardware and OS programming complexity beyond reason.
> 
> Useful midi control functions would require the possibility to 
choose 
> controller type, CC number, midi channel, value 1, value 2, mode 
and so on 
> per knob. Even specialised units like a Behringer BCR 2000 leave 
several 
> open wishes, therefore any compromise in functionality would have 
been of 
> little use while increasing the cost of the keyboard.
> 
> Stefan
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "ach_gott" <ach_gott@y...>
> To: <DSI_Evolver@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2005 7:02 PM
> Subject: [Evolver] PEK as a controller?
> 
> 
> >
> > I'm seriously digging the keyboard.  It's a little embarrassing 
to
> > admit, but I just love the way it looks and the talk of the 
keyboard
> > action is very exciting.  My Edirol controller is lacking in the
> > action, and it's a real hinderance to stylized playing.
> >
> > But... I already own a Poly and a controller keyboard.  For space
> > issues, two large keyboards is out of the question.  Can the PEK 
be
> > used as a controller?  That is, can it transmit > 4 midi
> > notes/vel/aftertouch simultaneously on the same channel?  Can it
> > transmit > 1 note on the same channel?  Can the knobs be 
programmed
> > to send a cc#?
> >
> > The last issue is the least important since I can buy a knob box 
and
> > merge the midi if need be.  But the other questions (which are
> > really the same question) are paramount.  Selling off two pieces 
of
> > gear that work well together to get one that may not fill my 
needs
> > is a fairly big risk.
> >
> > Can those of you who have a PEK (PEKers?) address the midi
> > transmission?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > eric f
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
---------------
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >  a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
> >  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DSI_Evolver/
> >
> >  b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >  DSI_Evolver-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >  c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of 
Service.
> >
> >

I've heard those novation x-station controllers can control the sys ex
commands for the evolver as well. I don't have one, but I plan on
getting one to control my evo.



--- In DSI_Evolver@yahoogroups.com, moose <moose@p...> wrote:
> On 27/4/05 11:24 AM, "Stefan Trippler" wrote:
> 
> 
> > Useful midi control functions would require the possibility to choose
> > controller type, CC number, midi channel, value 1, value 2, mode
and so on
> > per knob. Even specialised units like a Behringer BCR 2000 leave
several
> > open wishes, therefore any compromise in functionality would have
been of
> > little use while increasing the cost of the keyboard.
> 
> novayion have several small controllers with memories & overlays.  i
had a
> play on one last week & they actually felt pretty good.  i *think*
it was
> the x-station 25...  having the different cc memory sets would be very
> useful for people wanting to control several softsysnths within a
session...

> 
> }:-)
> 
> 
> email :
>   moose@p...
> 
> music sites :
>   http://www.pigpendigital.com
>   http://www.alaskahighway.com
>   http://www.mishikawa.com

On 4/28/05, Stefan Trippler <trippler@...> wrote:
> Masterkeyboard functions are limited though because all notes are sent to
> midi channel 1-16 or All. The split funtions of the Poly Keyboard in combo
> mode have an effect only on the internal sound engine, means you can't split
> the keyboard in a way that the lower half sends on midi channel 1 and the
> upper half on channel 2.

That's really a shame (and surprising on a modern keyboard!  Given the
relative ease of coding midi control code, it seems even casio
dime-store keyboards have sophisticated masterkeyboard functions these
days... :-).  Do you know if it's a "just hasn't been implemented"
sort of thing, or does the basic structure of the PE split
architecture make it impossible?  E.g., is the keyboard sort of tacked
onto the rack PE as an afterthought, and not really integrated into
the multi-timbrary setup...?

-Miles
-- 
Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.

> it seems even casio
> dime-store keyboards have sophisticated masterkeyboard functions these
> days... :-)

Really ? Can you tell an example of a synthesizer with 5 octave keyboard 
that has these functions ?
A6, Virus or Waldorf Q ?

Stefan

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Miles Bader" <miles@...>
To: <DSI_Evolver@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 2:17 AM
Subject: Re: [Evolver] PEK as a controller?


> On 4/28/05, Stefan Trippler <trippler@...> wrote:
>> Masterkeyboard functions are limited though because all notes are sent to
>> midi channel 1-16 or All. The split funtions of the Poly Keyboard in 
>> combo
>> mode have an effect only on the internal sound engine, means you can't 
>> split
>> the keyboard in a way that the lower half sends on midi channel 1 and the
>> upper half on channel 2.
>
> That's really a shame (and surprising on a modern keyboard!  Given the
> relative ease of coding midi control code, it seems even casio
> dime-store keyboards have sophisticated masterkeyboard functions these
> days... :-).  Do you know if it's a "just hasn't been implemented"
> sort of thing, or does the basic structure of the PE split
> architecture make it impossible?  E.g., is the keyboard sort of tacked
> onto the rack PE as an afterthought, and not really integrated into
> the multi-timbrary setup...?
>
> -Miles
> -- 
> Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>  a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
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>
>  b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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>
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>
>

On 27/4/05 4:48 PM, "FR" wrote:


> I've heard those novation x-station controllers can control the sys ex
> commands for the evolver as well. I don't have one, but I plan on
> getting one to control my evo.

i'll have to delve really deep when we get them in,  and i was *really*
surprised at the synth engine on the bigger version.  i was expecting a
watered-down supernova, with *that* sound which needed the fx to sound big,
and was really surprised.  chuck, the joint partner in the store, also had a
long play and had the same opinion...  and he used to own a supernova!

could be a great solution.

}:-)


email :
  moose@...

music sites :
  http://www.pigpendigital.com
  http://www.alaskahighway.com
  http://www.mishikawa.com

I'm not a technician, therefore I hope I don't tell something wrong.
I suppose that the internal sound engine is more advanced than the keyboard.
The Poly receives and interpretes midi messages on different channels. You 
can split the sound engine so that part 1 one of a multi is triggered by 
midi channel 1, the next by 2 and so on.
And of course the internal sound engine can be splitted in a way that one 
part reacts on note range c1-c2, the next on c3-c4 and so on, you can even 
set velocity splits.

So I reckon that the used Fatar keyboard (the same that is used in the 
Andromeda A6) does not offer the option to send on different midi channels 
simultaneously.

Stefan


> DE.g., is the keyboard sort of tacked
> onto the rack PE as an afterthought, and not really integrated into
> the multi-timbrary setup...?


----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Miles Bader" <miles@...>
To: <DSI_Evolver@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 2:17 AM
Subject: Re: [Evolver] PEK as a controller?


> On 4/28/05, Stefan Trippler <trippler@...> wrote:
>> Masterkeyboard functions are limited though because all notes are sent to
>> midi channel 1-16 or All. The split funtions of the Poly Keyboard in 
>> combo
>> mode have an effect only on the internal sound engine, means you can't 
>> split
>> the keyboard in a way that the lower half sends on midi channel 1 and the
>> upper half on channel 2.
>
> That's really a shame (and surprising on a modern keyboard!  Given the
> relative ease of coding midi control code, it seems even casio
> dime-store keyboards have sophisticated masterkeyboard functions these
> days... :-).  Do you know if it's a "just hasn't been implemented"
> sort of thing, or does the basic structure of the PE split
> architecture make it impossible?  E.g., is the keyboard sort of tacked
> onto the rack PE as an afterthought, and not really integrated into
> the multi-timbrary setup...?
>
> -Miles
> -- 
> Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>  a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
>  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DSI_Evolver/
>
>  b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>  DSI_Evolver-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>  c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>

On 4/28/05, Stefan Trippler <trippler@...> wrote:
> > it seems even casio
> > dime-store keyboards have sophisticated masterkeyboard functions these
> > days... :-)
> 
> Really ? Can you tell an example of a synthesizer with 5 octave keyboard
> that has these functions ?
> A6, Virus or Waldorf Q ?

I was exaggerating about the Casio, of course ... :-)

However my impression is that most modern synths have at least some
sort of method for getting a midi split out of the keyboard.  For
instance the Alesis Ion has a reasonable multi-zone setup for the
keyboard (up to 4 zones, each covering any key range with selectable
midi channel/local-on-off.  The nord lead 3 also allows independent
transmit channels for each slot (I think the NL2 does as well, but
it's been a while).  I don't know about the keyboards you mention, but
as they're all notably "feature heavy", I rather imagine they might
allow this sort of thing too.

Personally I don't think I'd ever use more than a simple split, but
it's really nice being able to play an external synth from the low
couple of octaves on your keyboard, and the builtin sounds from the
rest...

-Miles
-- 
Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.

On 4/28/05, Stefan Trippler <trippler@...> wrote:
> So I reckon that the used Fatar keyboard (the same that is used in the
> Andromeda A6) does not offer the option to send on different midi channels
> simultaneously.

The keyboard action used shouldn't affect this functionality, as it's
just a low-level mechanism; both midi and keyboard events are
typically handled by the synth's microcontroller.

If there's a reason, I'd guess that probably that Dave didn't want to
rewrite the code already developed for the rack version.

-Miles
-- 
Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.

Originally posted by Dave Bryce:
38.5" x 14" x 4" (the 4" measurement tapers to 1.75" towards the front, as 
the KB is wedge shaped).

The weight is around 25 lbs, I believe - maybe a bit less.

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "ach_gott" <ach_gott@...>
>
> Studio planning:
> What are the dimensions of the PEK?
>
> Thanks,
> eric f
>

----- Original Message -----

On 4/28/05, Stefan Trippler <trippler@...> wrote:
> Really ? Can you tell an example of a synthesizer with 5 octave keyboard
> that has these functions ?
> A6, Virus or Waldorf Q ?

Just as a followup, I downloaded the manuals for the above synths, and
both the A6 and Q allow the keyboard to send to different midi
channels from different keyboard zones (quite similar to the way the
Ion works).  The Virus TI manual is not very clear, but it _appears_
that it is much less sophisticated than the others, and treats the
keyboard basically as a global device (I guess similar to the way you
say the PEK works).

It's perhaps telling that the Ion, Q, and A6 started with keyboard
models, whereas the virus and poly-evolver started as modules and only
later added a keyboard...

-Miles
-- 
Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.

--- In DSI_Evolver@yahoogroups.com, Miles Bader <miles@g...> wrote:
> On 4/28/05, Stefan Trippler <trippler@t...> wrote:
> > Really ? Can you tell an example of a synthesizer with 5 octave 
keyboard
> > that has these functions ?
> > A6, Virus or Waldorf Q ?


ehm ehm, Stefan .. 

the kawai k5 could do that in 1987 
16 zones on a 5 oct kbd and rx/tx of 16 MIDI channels
strange enough the k5000 which is newer could only do it in 4 zones 
we always get less with new .. and pay more :-( nice e ? :-D  

the ex5 in performance mode (32 actually as it has 2 midi outs !) 
the k2500 in setup mode 

it is a must in a master kbd ! 

concerning controlling parameters  .... 
i still dont understand why the evolver as new as it is, has not been 
designed to be controlled by midi CCs , u could use 128 of them ! 
Would have make it so much easier to control parameters from any 
simple generic controller   

ciao
andrea

Andrea, my question about the keyboards wasn't ment to be a rhetorical 
question. I simply don't know which 5 octave keyboards offer split zones. 
Before the PEK I had only one masterkeyboard, anything else as rack version.
And for I come from the piano I always feel that 5 octaves aren't enough for 
a solo line and that 2 split zones require a minimum of 88 keys ;)

I am not deep enough into midi/sysex technology to comment from the 
technical side.
From my personal point of view as a user I think that the generic control 
theme is highly overrated at the moment.

I have a BCR 2000 and programmed a template for the Waldorf Pulse. Even for 
this simple subtractive synth, the 32 knobs weren't enough, some knobs 
control more than 1 parameter.
Sound programming with a complex synthesizer like the Evolver would require 
5 BCRs in a row and you'd still have to switch to reach certain parameters. 
Imho this makes sense only with a specialised controller like the PEK or 
with a software editor.

Regards

Stefan


Live playing is a different theme.
----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Andrea TONI" <Andrea.Toni@...>
To: <DSI_Evolver@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 4:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Evolver] PEK as a controller?


> --- In DSI_Evolver@yahoogroups.com, Miles Bader <miles@g...> wrote:
>> On 4/28/05, Stefan Trippler <trippler@t...> wrote:
>> > Really ? Can you tell an example of a synthesizer with 5 octave
> keyboard
>> > that has these functions ?
>> > A6, Virus or Waldorf Q ?
>
>
> ehm ehm, Stefan ..
>
> the kawai k5 could do that in 1987
> 16 zones on a 5 oct kbd and rx/tx of 16 MIDI channels
> strange enough the k5000 which is newer could only do it in 4 zones
> we always get less with new .. and pay more :-( nice e ? :-D
>
> the ex5 in performance mode (32 actually as it has 2 midi outs !)
> the k2500 in setup mode
>
> it is a must in a master kbd !
>
> concerning controlling parameters  ....
> i still dont understand why the evolver as new as it is, has not been
> designed to be controlled by midi CCs , u could use 128 of them !
> Would have make it so much easier to control parameters from any
> simple generic controller
>
> ciao
> andrea
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>  a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
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>

Swallowed part of the mail:

Live playing is a different theme.
I've programmed a very sophisticated BCR template for this:
http://www.trippler.net/files/pics/bcrevo.jpg  ;)

It allows very complex sound variations (together with velocity from the 
keyboard) if the Evolver sounds is programmed in an appropriate way ;)


----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Stefan Trippler" <trippler@...>
To: <DSI_Evolver@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 5:23 PM
Subject: Re: [Evolver] PEK as a controller?


> Andrea, my question about the keyboards wasn't ment to be a rhetorical
> question. I simply don't know which 5 octave keyboards offer split zones.
> Before the PEK I had only one masterkeyboard, anything else as rack 
> version.
> And for I come from the piano I always feel that 5 octaves aren't enough 
> for
> a solo line and that 2 split zones require a minimum of 88 keys ;)
>
> I am not deep enough into midi/sysex technology to comment from the
> technical side.
>>From my personal point of view as a user I think that the generic control
> theme is highly overrated at the moment.
>
> I have a BCR 2000 and programmed a template for the Waldorf Pulse. Even 
> for
> this simple subtractive synth, the 32 knobs weren't enough, some knobs
> control more than 1 parameter.
> Sound programming with a complex synthesizer like the Evolver would 
> require
> 5 BCRs in a row and you'd still have to switch to reach certain 
> parameters.
> Imho this makes sense only with a specialised controller like the PEK or
> with a software editor.
>
> Regards
>
> Stefan
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Andrea TONI" <Andrea.Toni@...>
> To: <DSI_Evolver@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 4:18 PM
> Subject: Re: [Evolver] PEK as a controller?
>
>
>> --- In DSI_Evolver@yahoogroups.com, Miles Bader <miles@g...> wrote:
>>> On 4/28/05, Stefan Trippler <trippler@t...> wrote:
>>> > Really ? Can you tell an example of a synthesizer with 5 octave
>> keyboard
>>> > that has these functions ?
>>> > A6, Virus or Waldorf Q ?
>>
>>
>> ehm ehm, Stefan ..
>>
>> the kawai k5 could do that in 1987
>> 16 zones on a 5 oct kbd and rx/tx of 16 MIDI channels
>> strange enough the k5000 which is newer could only do it in 4 zones
>> we always get less with new .. and pay more :-( nice e ? :-D
>>
>> the ex5 in performance mode (32 actually as it has 2 midi outs !)
>> the k2500 in setup mode
>>
>> it is a must in a master kbd !
>>
>> concerning controlling parameters  ....
>> i still dont understand why the evolver as new as it is, has not been
>> designed to be controlled by midi CCs , u could use 128 of them !
>> Would have make it so much easier to control parameters from any
>> simple generic controller
>>
>> ciao
>> andrea
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>  a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
>>  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DSI_Evolver/
>>
>>  b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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>>
>>  c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>  a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
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>

lack of midi CC#s is not a small issue; it is the great weakness of the 
entire evolver range IMO - it just limits how effectively it can be 
integrated with other gear.

Personally speaking, I am not a keybord player, so I use a wx5 wind 
controller and buchla lightning controller, the fact that I cannot fully 
control the evolver from these instruments means I don't use it onstage, 
which hugely limits the use I get from it..

its a real limitation, which i would love to see adressed in a future OS

Richard

On 5/5/05, Richard Scott <richardscott@...> wrote:
> lack of midi CC#s is not a small issue; it is the great weakness of the
> entire evolver range IMO - it just limits how effectively it can be
> integrated with other gear.

Some of these restrictions (lack of CCs, my complaints about the lack
of keyboard functionality)  are very frustrating for those of us who
are (computer) programmers too --  there are inevitable restrictions
on Dave's time, and he simply can't work on everything, but a lot of
this stuff would likely be reasonably straight-forward to implement,
if we could only get our hands on the code....

FOSS synth OS anyone...?

Dave gets his money from the hardware ("the ultimate dongle" and all
that), so...

[Yeah, I know it's not quite _that_ easy -- quality control, support,
etc., all would be major issues with such an approach.]

-Miles
-- 
Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.