Yamaha DTXpress/DTXplorer/DTXtreme

hi guys, I have a dtxpressII and I was wondering if anyone knows 
anything about this.
Note, I have no drum training, so this is probably a technique issue..

often while listening to music, I hear the drummer sneak in a quick 
triplet on the HighHat. Kinda sounds like...
tsst...tsst...tsst...tssttssttsst...tsst...etc.  I hear it quite 
often, sometimes in guitar center, but 
never get to the drum sections in time to see it in action...:(

I assume this is done by "bouncing" the stick on the HH as it occurs 
pretty quickly.  However, when I try it
it doesn't sound quite right...I kinda bounce the stick and then 
bring it closer to the high hat to make it bouce
faster.  I'm wondering if it's a technique or/and dtxpress issue.  I 
usually do this 
with the highhats closed, maybe that is it?


Any help/advice would be appreciated.

--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Sakamoto" <sakamotj@y...> 
wrote:
> often while listening to music, I hear the drummer sneak in a 
quick 
> triplet on the HighHat. Kinda sounds like...
> tsst...tsst...tsst...tssttssttsst...tsst...etc.  

Hi Jon,

What comes to mind from your description is a figure used by a lot 
of drummers to injest some depth into 4/4 time. To my mind, the most 
inventive rock drummer in this respect was Stewart Copeland, who 
actually was able to insert double-strokes with both of his hands on 
his hi hat for a remarkable variation of this effect. But I digress. 
So far as the technique is concerned, if I read you correctly, the 
triplets are created not by letting the stick bounce but by 
controlling each stroke with your wrist and fingers, in something 
like an undulating motion (without gripping the stick too tightly so 
that it can move freely). On the last note of the triplet, you open 
the hi hat slightly to get the tsst sound before closing it quickly. 
I'm not the biggest technician; maybe someone can refine this 
description. But I hope that it confirms your suspicion that the 
effect isn't magic.

Ed

--- liberatusvirus wrote:
> ... Stewart Copeland...

Often criminally overlooked, in my view. I remember seeing him with 
his missus, Sonja Kristina, in Curved Air (Liverpool University, 
1970-something). Damn good polo player too.

Er. Back to the point.

> ... if I read you correctly, the 
> triplets are created not by letting the stick bounce
> but by controlling each stroke with your wrist and
> fingers...

And let's not forget there's no law against hitting the hat with 
*both* sticks... it's often useful to move over the "snare" hand 
(whichever that might be) to play a quick figure on the hats.

Stewart

Thanks for the help, both of you!  Sounds like the DTXpressII can do 
it, I just have to work on it...;)

BTW, when undulating was mentioned, I assum you mean your wrist, 
correct?  

Thanks,
Jon
--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "moosetication" <moosetication@y...> 
wrote:

> --- liberatusvirus wrote:
> > ... Stewart Copeland...
> 
> Often criminally overlooked, in my view. I remember seeing him with 
> his missus, Sonja Kristina, in Curved Air (Liverpool University, 
> 1970-something). Damn good polo player too.
> 
> Er. Back to the point.
> 
> > ... if I read you correctly, the 
> > triplets are created not by letting the stick bounce
> > but by controlling each stroke with your wrist and
> > fingers...
> 
> And let's not forget there's no law against hitting the hat with 
> *both* sticks... it's often useful to move over the "snare" hand 
> (whichever that might be) to play a quick figure on the hats.
> 
> Stewart

--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "moosetication" 
<moosetication@y...> wrote:
> > ... Stewart Copeland...
> 
> Often criminally overlooked, in my view. I remember seeing him 
with 
> his missus, Sonja Kristina, in Curved Air (Liverpool University, 
> 1970-something). Damn good polo player too.
> 

Stewart,

I saw him in Boston before and during the height of the Police's 
popularity. He is a case study in magnificent personal style. It is 
so difficult to play like him, even if you understand what he does 
and how his kit is arrayed. Only someone as talented as Vinnie 
Colaiuta can take a bit of Copeland and make it seem effortless and 
natural, as he did when he played with Sting. Even the venerable 
Peter Erskine, as a member of Weather Report, had complimentary 
things to say about Copeland, even doing a "Copelandist" turn on a 
one of WR's compositions. Anyway, I consider it a privilege to have 
heard Copeland play in the Police's early days, when the band had to 
extend its songs because it didn't have much material. His power and 
invention within the confines of the Police rhythmic structure was 
staggering. What he could do with a basic beat! He insists that his 
most revered value is simplicity, but his undeniable complexity is 
in the details, like the devil's. In the early days, the Police 
interacted like an improvisational jazz combo, only louder.

Just for the halibut, to see what people think, despite their widely 
differing approaches, Copeland and Ringo are similar in the almost 
mystifying uniqueness of their styles. Can anyone think of other 
drummers who seem to defy duplication in touch and intuition, 
regardless of how well you seem to know them, or how simple their 
groove is?

Ed

--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Sakamoto" <sakamotj@y...> 
wrote:
> 
> BTW, when undulating was mentioned, I assum you mean your wrist, 
> correct?  

Jon,

Yes, the wrist. That's the term that occurs to me. The action at my 
wrist seems to make the hand/arm connection undulate rather than 
hammer, if you can picture it. Maybe as you practice, you'll come up 
with another way of describing it. It's not just an up and down 
motion; it's a smooth, liquid thing.

Ed

--- "liberatusvirus" wrote:
> Yes, the wrist. That's the term that occurs to me.
> The action at my wrist seems to make the hand/arm
> connection undulate rather than hammer, if you can
> picture it. Maybe as you practice, you'll come up 
> with another way of describing it. It's not just
> an up and down motion; it's a smooth, liquid thing.

It's damn difficult to describe, without the aid of video, isn't it? 
The best demonstration of it I've seen recently is a small snippet 
from one of Dave Weckl's newest videos... the snippet is on the 
second disc of his "The Zone" release.

Imagine making the hat stroke. Start with the basic up-down-up-down 
arc. Now, after striking on the downstroke, instead of exactly 
reversing the motion in the up-arc, almost "continue" the motion 
down through the hat and sort of "sweep" it back up. You obviously 
can't sweep the stick *through* the hat, so it sort of has to slide 
back. A bit like cracking a whip in slow motion. Do that until it's 
starting to become fluid.

Now, the tricky bit. Add a second hi-hat stroke while you are in the 
return part of the whiplash, just using the wrist, while you're 
actually returning to the start position. You can make this stroke a 
ghost note (unaccented) or the same emphasis as the first downstroke.

Sorry, that wasn't the only tricky bit. Now add another stroke on 
the return, to play triplets. And then another, for sixteenths.

You're only making *one* overall motion, but adding the extra beats 
in as part of the return stroke.

Aw, hell. Where's my camera...

Stewart

--- I wrote:
> Imagine making the hat stroke...
> [much babble deleted]
> Aw, hell. Where's my camera...

Ok, found one. Go to Steve Holmes' site here:

http://www.houseofdrumming.com/order-ssl.htm

Down at the bottom of the page, there's a link to a preview of his 
video. Watch his hi-hat technique at the start of the preview. This 
is exactly what I'm trying (badly) to describe. In particular, about 
seven second in he plays some triplets which is what I think you 
were asking about originally.

Caveat: this is not an endorsement of this instructional video. I 
have seen no more than the downloadable preview and know nothing 
more about Steve Holmes or his ability than what's on his site.

Stewart

On Fri, 27 Jun 2003 23:10:28 -0000, liberatusvirus wrote:
>\ufffdJust for the halibut, to see what people think, despite their widely 
>\ufffddiffering approaches, Copeland and Ringo are similar in the almost 
>\ufffdmystifying uniqueness of their styles. Can anyone think of other 
>\ufffddrummers who seem to defy duplication in touch and intuition, 
>\ufffdregardless of how well you seem to know them, or how simple their 
>\ufffdgroove is?

Keith Moon. To this day, his style still mystifies and amazes me.

I have the DVD "Who's Next", which is a "behind the scenes look" at the 
making of the album. There are two really telling passages spoken about 
Moon on the video. One is by Glyn Johns (who produced/engineered the 
recording): He points out that Moon's style very often actually follows 
the *vocals* and that he'd never seen another drummer do that, then 
adds "brilliant!". Listen to "Won't Get Fooled Again" and you'll 
immediately hear it...

Another comment is made by Pete Townshend, who is reminiscing about 
taking his demo tracks (which he plays all instruments on) to the 
studio. As he describes his drumming and bass style as very simple and 
basic, then it becomes "The Who" when Entwhistle and Moon run with it.
He goes on "I certainly couldn't play like Keith... no one would WANT 
to." Quite amusing. I remembered back to my high school days, reading
the sheet music to some of the Who's tunes and thinking, "how the @#$%
does he PLAY that????" 

Matt

Guys, Thanks so much for the help!  That video was helpful(and 
inspiring as well)..;)  That is the exact sound I was trying to 
describe!(although he does it 3 times; I usually only would hear it 
once)  

So, I've been trying to reproduce the sound...it seems like I got 
the "whiplash" part down, and it seems that if I open the high hats 
when I do this, it adds a more swishy effect to the triplets, which I 
assume is a good thing.  However, I was a bit confused as you 
mentioned a "second hi-hat stroke".  Right now, in an attempt to 
duplicate the sound from 
that video, at the right beat, I:

1) open hi-hat.
2) do the whiplash(which results in 3 hits - feels almost like a 
forced bounce on the hi-hat)
3)close hi-hat(kinda sims the extended tsssst between triplets)
4) repeat

Seems like I'm missing something tho..sounds like he's doing the 
triplets 3 times with a long tssssst in between.  In this the "second 
hi-hat" stroke you mentioned or the closing of the hi-hat?

Again, thanks so much for your guys help; I know it must be 
frustrating to try and explain this via typing...
--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "moosetication" <moosetication@y...> 
wrote:
> --- I wrote:
> > Imagine making the hat stroke...
> > [much babble deleted]
> > Aw, hell. Where's my camera...
> 
> Ok, found one. Go to Steve Holmes' site here:
> 
> http://www.houseofdrumming.com/order-ssl.htm
> 
> Down at the bottom of the page, there's a link to a preview of his 
> video. Watch his hi-hat technique at the start of the preview. This 
> is exactly what I'm trying (badly) to describe. In particular, 
about 

> seven second in he plays some triplets which is what I think you 
> were asking about originally.
> 
> Caveat: this is not an endorsement of this instructional video. I 
> have seen no more than the downloadable preview and know nothing 
> more about Steve Holmes or his ability than what's on his site.
> 
> Stewart

--- "Jon Sakamoto" wrote:
> In this the "second 
> hi-hat" stroke you mentioned

The second stoke I referred to is the second stroke in the triplet.

If you study the video, you'll see he doesn't open the hat until the 
third stroke of the triplet. The effect is "t-t-tsh". Remember that 
timing-wise, the triplet occupies the same space as two beats.

You'll also need to bear in mind the fact that you (we) don't have 
as much control over the amount the hi-hats open on the standard 
DTXpress ... we have only three states: closed, half-open, and fully 
open. With a real pedal and real cymbals, you get a complete range 
of control and can "feather" the hat cymbals . I'm afraid that 
without a different hi-hat (Ed recommends the Visu-lite as the 
closest facsimile to the real thing in terms of playability), we'll 
never quite achieve what's on that video. 

If you use this technique much, you'll probably want to change the 
decay on the open hi-hat voice on the brain. By default, they decay 
too fast and sound rather choked. Tinkering with the decay, choosing 
the right voice, and layering two voices, can give a *much* more 
pleasing sound than the brain as it comes out of the box.

Stewart

--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Sakamoto" <sakamotj@y...> 
wrote:
> 1) open hi-hat.
> 2) do the whiplash(which results in 3 hits - feels almost like a 
> forced bounce on the hi-hat)
> 3)close hi-hat(kinda sims the extended tsssst between triplets)
> 4) repeat

Jon,

Stewart brought you amazingly far on the technical side. If you're 
anything like me (and let's hope not), after a point exercises start 
seeming abstract and divorced from actual music. But one more drill 
might be helpful: You could try alternating your kick with a strike 
of your hi hat cymbal, as if you were playing in 2/4 or 4/4. On 
every stroke with your hand, you could open up the hi hat a little 
before closing while you strike the kick. Eventually, you'll feel in 
control of getting that tsst sound. In the next part of the drill, 
you could concentrate on hitting the hi hat twice, instead of once, 
opening it up on the second stroke and then closing it with the kick 
as before. In the third step, your hi hat figure would be the full 
triplet followed by foot close and kick.

This next suggestion is the hard one. Lock all the doors, shut the 
shades, leave a message on your phone that you've been called away 
to a summit meeting, and connect a cd player to your module so that 
you can listen to it via headphones (for your own protection). If 
you have any secret disco recordings from the 1970s, spin'em and 
play along; if not, bribe a ten-year-old to find one for you. Almost 
every one of them will feature that simple pattern of alternating 
the opened and closed hi hat sound, in either of the simple 
variations that I described above. If disco is too embarrassing, 
even in the comfort and solitude of your own home, find a CD by New 
Order, a punk/new wave band from the 1980s, some of whose beats bear 
the influence of the by then safely superseded disco movement. Maybe 
you can think of other viable substitutes. But, whatever you choose, 
forcing yourself to listen and keep up with the music, may help you 
to get you the technique.

Ed

Ed...2 drummers that I idol are Danny Seraphine from
Chicago and Neil Peart from Rush...and I LOVE  the
late Jeff Porcaro...these drummers had a style of
their own....Stewart Copeland is another one of my
favorites, they have a God given gift of taking a
simple beat and making it highly complex sounding...I
saw Danny Seraphine many times.
Jade
--- liberatusvirus <liberatusvirus@...> wrote:
> --- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "moosetication" 
> <moosetication@y...> wrote:
> > > ... Stewart Copeland...
> > 
> > Often criminally overlooked, in my view. I
> remember seeing him 
> with 
> > his missus, Sonja Kristina, in Curved Air
> (Liverpool University, 
> > 1970-something). Damn good polo player too.
> > 
> 
> Stewart,
> 
> I saw him in Boston before and during the height of
> the Police's 
> popularity. He is a case study in magnificent
> personal style. It is 
> so difficult to play like him, even if you
> understand what he does 
> and how his kit is arrayed. Only someone as talented
> as Vinnie 
> Colaiuta can take a bit of Copeland and make it seem
> effortless and 
> natural, as he did when he played with Sting. Even
> the venerable 
> Peter Erskine, as a member of Weather Report, had
> complimentary 
> things to say about Copeland, even doing a
> "Copelandist" turn on a 
> one of WR's compositions. Anyway, I consider it a
> privilege to have 
> heard Copeland play in the Police's early days, when
> the band had to 
> extend its songs because it didn't have much
> material. His power and 
> invention within the confines of the Police rhythmic
> structure was 
> staggering. What he could do with a basic beat! He
> insists that his 
> most revered value is simplicity, but his undeniable
> complexity is 
> in the details, like the devil's. In the early days,
> the Police 
> interacted like an improvisational jazz combo, only
> louder.
> 
> Just for the halibut, to see what people think,
> despite their widely 
> differing approaches, Copeland and Ringo are similar
> in the almost 
> mystifying uniqueness of their styles. Can anyone
> think of other 
> drummers who seem to defy duplication in touch and
> intuition, 
> regardless of how well you seem to know them, or how
> simple their 
> groove is?
> 
> Ed
> 
> 


__________________________________
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SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com

--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, Jade <jadiebooshkie@y...> wrote:
> Ed...2 drummers that I idol are Danny Seraphine from
> Chicago and Neil Peart from Rush...and I LOVE  the
> late Jeff Porcaro...

Jade,

Jeff Porcaro--so smooth, so committed to playing within the music. I 
tend to like drummers more inside the music than outside, and 
Porcaro belongs in the pantheon of the greats for me.

Matt,

I know what you mean about Keith Moon. Townshend used to get annoyed 
at him because he seemed unfamiliar with the concept of the hi hat, 
but he was so distinctive. With all that flailing, it's hard to see 
how he could have hit the drums so often and so well. He hit'em with 
his arms going up, and he hit'em with his arms going down. Here's a 
good story: A band member friend of mine was dating Leonard 
Bernstein's daughter for a while, and he took them both to see the 
Who in the late 60s. Bernstein said that he liked the way the band 
used silence and apace. Moon had all these theatrical stops and 
starts in those days.

Ed

--- "liberatusvirus" wrote:
> Jeff Porcaro--so smooth, so committed to playing within
> the music. I tend to like drummers more inside the music
> than outside, and Porcaro belongs in the pantheon of the
> greats for me.

[vigorous nodding from your UK correspondent]

Of course, he's best known (and rightly so, in some ways) for his 
work with Toto. But there are gems everywhere. I treasure a now 
rather obscure recording, Strange Kind of Love by Scottish band Love 
and Money (from Dundee, I think). This was a "moving into the big 
time" recording for them, and they attracted Gary Katz at the helm 
and Jeff Porcaro plays throughout. It was received well critically 
in the UK at the time (1989) but is sadly almost unheard of now. I 
wouldn't be surprised if it was deleted. It is (in my humble) packed 
end-to-end with great songs and, of all of Porcaro's work, this 
arguably makes me smile the most. It is *gorgeous*.

Stewart

guys,
   Just a follow up...went to Starving Musician(music store)...and 
while I was there, I got to talking to the drum guy there, and he 
showed me how to do that triplet move....I think I can get it 
now..;)  Seems like there is alot of control done with the fingers 
and using your thumb and pointer as the fulcrum...but now I 
understand what you guys were trying to explain...;)  Thanks so much!!

Jon
--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "liberatusvirus" 
<liberatusvirus@y...> wrote:
> --- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Sakamoto" <sakamotj@y...> 
> wrote:
> > 1) open hi-hat.
> > 2) do the whiplash(which results in 3 hits - feels almost like a 
> > forced bounce on the hi-hat)
> > 3)close hi-hat(kinda sims the extended tsssst between triplets)
> > 4) repeat
> 
> Jon,
> 
> Stewart brought you amazingly far on the technical side. If you're 
> anything like me (and let's hope not), after a point exercises 
start 
> seeming abstract and divorced from actual music. But one more drill 
> might be helpful: You could try alternating your kick with a strike 
> of your hi hat cymbal, as if you were playing in 2/4 or 4/4. On 
> every stroke with your hand, you could open up the hi hat a little 
> before closing while you strike the kick. Eventually, you'll feel 
in 
> control of getting that tsst sound. In the next part of the drill, 
> you could concentrate on hitting the hi hat twice, instead of once, 
> opening it up on the second stroke and then closing it with the 
kick 
> as before. In the third step, your hi hat figure would be the full 
> triplet followed by foot close and kick.
> 
> This next suggestion is the hard one. Lock all the doors, shut the 
> shades, leave a message on your phone that you've been called away 
> to a summit meeting, and connect a cd player to your module so that 
> you can listen to it via headphones (for your own protection). If 
> you have any secret disco recordings from the 1970s, spin'em and 
> play along; if not, bribe a ten-year-old to find one for you. 
Almost 
> every one of them will feature that simple pattern of alternating 
> the opened and closed hi hat sound, in either of the simple 
> variations that I described above. If disco is too embarrassing, 
> even in the comfort and solitude of your own home, find a CD by New 
> Order, a punk/new wave band from the 1980s, some of whose beats 
bear 
> the influence of the by then safely superseded disco movement. 
Maybe 
> you can think of other viable substitutes. But, whatever you 
choose, 

> forcing yourself to listen and keep up with the music, may help you 
> to get you the technique.
> 
> Ed

--- "Jon Sakamoto" wrote:
> ... he showed me how to do that triplet move...
> I think I can get it now..;)

Excellent! Now you just need twelve years of practise to get it 
right.

Stewart

PS. Only kidding. You can make do with eleven.