Yamaha DTXpress/DTXplorer/DTXtreme

Hi all - this is probably a stupid question but is there any difference
between the PCY65S and PCY80S cymbal pads? All I can find on the Yamaha site
is that they are dual zone, and they look identical.

pb

--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, Paul Bentley <pb@w...> wrote:
> Hi all - this is probably a stupid question but is there any 
difference
> between the PCY65S and PCY80S cymbal pads? All I can find on the 
Yamaha site
> is that they are dual zone, and they look identical.
> 
> pb

Paul,

They may look alike from a distance, but they are not. The PCY80S has 
a rigid on the top of the rim, the PCY65S has a flat top with a 
dippled surface. The connector on the underside of the pad is much 
more beefer on the PCY65S than it is on the PCY80S. The angle of the 
connector is also different. A PCY80S can take a straight connector 
without interfering with the mounting arm, the PCY65S needs a 90 
degree connector.  There are photos of the PCY80S in the photos 
section. I will take some photos tonight of the PCY65S to add to this 
site. They function the same. I prefer the PCY65S over the PCY80s, as 
it seems to be less likely to self-choke.

OGD

Really Inspector, do you seriously expect me to believe that on 25/8/03 5:33
pm, "oldguydrummer" <rdamon@...> said:

> Paul,
> 
> They may look alike from a distance, but they are not. The PCY80S has
> a rigid on the top of the rim, the PCY65S has a flat top with a
> dippled surface. The connector on the underside of the pad is much
> more beefer on the PCY65S than it is on the PCY80S. The angle of the
> connector is also different. A PCY80S can take a straight connector
> without interfering with the mounting arm, the PCY65S needs a 90
> degree connector.  There are photos of the PCY80S in the photos
> section. I will take some photos tonight of the PCY65S to add to this
> site. They function the same. I prefer the PCY65S over the PCY80s, as
> it seems to be less likely to self-choke.

Thanks - I also came across Stewart's explanation (message 5123) just now in
the archive too. So many messages, so little time! I actually started
looking at all this after reading that you'd recommended a 65S as a hi-hat -
is this a plug'n'play replacement or more involved than that?

pb

> Paul wrote: " all this after reading that you'd recommended a 65S as a
> hi-hat -
> is this a plug'n'play replacement or more involved than that?
> 
> Paul, 
> 
> The hihat pads from the original sets were single zones (TP60 and TP65)
> using a mono cable.
> 
> The PCY65S will need a stereo cable and the trigger will need to be
> changed to PCY80(dtxpress1) or PCY65(dtxpressII). You will also need to
> setup the voices for the Pad/rim zone to your liking.
> 
> OGD
> 
 
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--- oldguydrummer wrote:
> I prefer the PCY65S over the PCY80s, as 
> it seems to be less likely to self-choke.

I concur with this statement I have three PCY80S, and they are all 
more inclined to self-choke than the PCY65S.

Stewart

> Stewart wrote: "I concur with this statement I have three PCY80S, and they
> are all 
> more inclined to self-choke than the PCY65S."
> 
> General question to anyone using non-Yamaha cymbals with Yamaha modules:
> Do other manufacturers  cymbals have a problem with self-choking when
> connected to the Yamaha module? 
> 
> General question no. 2 to anyone using Yamaha cymbals with a non-Yamaha
> modules. Is there a problem with self-choking in that situation?
> 
> If self-choking occurs for Yamaha cymbals regardless of the module being
> used, then it would be a cymbal pad problem. If self-choking occurs only
> when connected to a Yamaha module, then it would be a Yamaha module
> problem.
> 
> The more I think about it, this starting to sound like a basic programming
> design issue. There is a value that is programmed into the module that
> determines if the cymbal is being held (long contact time) as opposed to
> just being struck which determines whether the voices (pad/rim) are to be
> choked or played normally. If would seem that if the contact time that is
> programmed in module were to be increased, that this problem could all but
> be eliminated. Say, to choke the cymbal you would have to hold it for more
> than a 1/4 second or so. Anything less, the sound for rim/pad would play
> normally. Anything more, the sound would be choked.
> 
> This is where having a Yamaha rep. online would be helpful. (or having an
> e-eprom burner and the source programming code or just adding a setting
> that could be adjusted in the trigger setup menu that would
> increase/decrease the sensitivity of the choking feature would also work.)
> 
> 
> OGD
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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It has been my experience that all stereo pads want to self-choke when 
the rim is played like a ride. I have had no troubles at all when used 
as a crash PCY80S and TP80S. It chokes when I want it to. But if you 
try to ride the rim... They are all gonna choke.I think its just the 
nature of the switch/electronics relationship.
The rolands (PD7 and 9)behave a little differently, but no improvement 
( but they are not any worse...just "different."
If you are using it for a ride, and don't need the choke, you can 
change the pad type so it won't choke at all.
Scott

--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, rdamon@m... wrote:
> > Stewart wrote: "I concur with this statement I have three PCY80S, 
and they
> > are all 
> > more inclined to self-choke than the PCY65S."
> > 
> > General question to anyone using non-Yamaha cymbals with Yamaha 
modules:
> > Do other manufacturers  cymbals have a problem with self-choking 
when
> > connected to the Yamaha module? 
> > 
> > General question no. 2 to anyone using Yamaha cymbals with a 
non-Yamaha
> > modules. Is there a problem with self-choking in that situation?
> > 
> > If self-choking occurs for Yamaha cymbals regardless of the module 
being
> > used, then it would be a cymbal pad problem. If self-choking 
occurs only
> > when connected to a Yamaha module, then it would be a Yamaha 
module
> > problem.
> > 
> > The more I think about it, this starting to sound like a basic 
programming
> > design issue. There is a value that is programmed into the module 
that
> > determines if the cymbal is being held (long contact time) as 
opposed to
> > just being struck which determines whether the voices (pad/rim) 
are to be
> > choked or played normally. If would seem that if the contact time 
that is
> > programmed in module were to be increased, that this problem could 
all but
> > be eliminated. Say, to choke the cymbal you would have to hold it 
for more
> > than a 1/4 second or so. Anything less, the sound for rim/pad 
would play
> > normally. Anything more, the sound would be choked.
> > 
> > This is where having a Yamaha rep. online would be helpful. (or 
having an
> > e-eprom burner and the source programming code or just adding a 
setting
> > that could be adjusted in the trigger setup menu that would
> > increase/decrease the sensitivity of the choking feature would 
also work.)
> > 
> > 
> > OGD
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor	 
> > ADVERTISEMENT
> > click here
> > 
<http://rd.yahoo.com/M=251812.3170658.4537139.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=17
0503
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1972:HM/A=1693352/R=0/SIG=11tralmvc/*http://www.netflix.com/Default?mq
so=6
> > 0178293&partid=3170658>	
> >  
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oupm
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--- hairytrigger wrote:
> It has been my experience that all stereo pads want
> to self-choke when the rim is played like a ride.

No, I see it when I use them as crashes. I only ride on the bow.

I mostly agree with ODG's conclusion that this is primarily a 
software problem. However, the pads must have some influence if one 
type can be worse than another, as he and I have seen with PCY80S 
being worse than the PCY65S.

Stewart

Continuing on with the thread...

With the PCY80S, it seems that I can hit it anywhere on the rim and 
it triggers the rim voice.  With the PCy65S, it seems that to 
reliably get the rim voice, I have to hit the rim realitivy hard, 
and within 1 inch either side of the center.  Hits elsewhere on the 
rim seem to trigger the bow voice.  Both choke ok.

Is this anyone else's experience or could it just be my pad?

> Continuing on with the thread...
> 
> With the PCY80S, it seems that I can hit it anywhere on the rim and 
> it triggers the rim voice.   With the PCy65S, it seems that to 
> reliably get the rim voice, I have to hit the rim realitivy hard, 
> and within 1 inch either side of the center.   Hits elsewhere on the 
> rim seem to trigger the bow voice.   Both choke ok.
> 
> Is this anyone else's experience or could it just be my pad?
> 
> 
I will open up a PCY65S this weekend and take photos and report on the
difference in construction between the two. 

OGD
 
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Thanks... It will be interesting, as I noticed on the PCY80S, that 
there were 3 traces/ribbons going to the rim.  2 split out to either 
side (assume that that is the FSR piece), but there was another one 
(in the center) that just seemed to stop at the rim.

Steve


> I will open up a PCY65S this weekend and take photos and report on 
the

> difference in construction between the two. 
> 
> OGD

> Steve WROTE: Thanks... It will be interesting, as I noticed on the PCY80S,
> that 
> there were 3 traces/ribbons going to the rim.  2 split out to either 
> side (assume that that is the FSR piece), but there was another one 
> (in the center) that just seemed to stop at the rim.
> 
Steve,

I had some extra time last night so I opened up the PCY65S sooner than I
thought I would. I have posted several pictures in the 'inside the dtxpress"
album.

Some noted differences:

1. The narrow leads to the FSR on the top have been shortened.
2. The Rim FSR has just been lowered, I guess to prevent accidental striking
of the rim switch surface compared to the PCY80S with the raised top ridge.
3. The raised rubber surface that makes contact with the rim FSR seems to be
slightly wider than in the PCY80S.
4. The piezo on the PCY80S make full rigid contact with the plastic frame.
The piezo on the PCY65S has a half round 1/32" foam insert between the piezo
and the plastic frame and only half of the piezo is in contact with the
frame!!
5. The PCB on the PCY80S is directly screwed to the plastic frame. On the
PCY65S the PCB has a 1-1/2"x1/2"x1/8" foam cushion that has double sided
tape that attaches it to the main plastic frame and two screws that attaches
it to the outer protective housing on the bottom of the cymbal.


One interesting note: On aTP65 there are spaces and predrilled holes with
preprinted labelling on the PCB for the extra sockets/resistors that are
only present on the TP65S. There are not any extra printing or holes on the
PCB on the TP65S.

When you look at the PCB on the PCY65S, not only does it have the additional
sockets/resistors that are not present on the PCY65, BUT THERE IS ARE
"FUTURE" EXTRA HOLES FOR  A DIFFERENT CONNECTOR!!!!!!! Look at pic 4855.jpg
and you will see a space for a connector CN2 below the connector for the FSR
ribben. Providing  extra holes on what is already a top of the line (PCY65S
compared to a PCY65) cymbals pad doesn't seem logical. The extra holes do
not appear in the "top of the line" TP65S, so what are they
for...........the future three zone cymbal??????? By moving the FSR ribben
down farther on the top it would make more logistical to run a FSR up to the
bell surface for that magical three zone cymbal??

OGD
 
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Additional note:

Notice on the PCB on the PCY65S that resistor R2 is not a resistor at all
but just a jumper cable. The extra resistors exists on the TP65S to create
the three zone snare. The question now is was the PCY65S original suppose to
be a three zone cymbal, but was reduced to a two zone for cost/technological
issues???? The plot thickens!! 

OGD
 
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--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, rdamon@m... wrote:
> Additional note:
> 
> Notice on the PCB on the PCY65S that resistor R2 is not a resistor 
at all
> but just a jumper cable. The extra resistors exists on the TP65S to 
create
> the three zone snare. The question now is was the PCY65S original 
suppose to
> be a three zone cymbal, but was reduced to a two zone for 
cost/technological
> issues???? The plot thickens!! 

OGD, what purpose could the jumper have? Maybe the PCY65S was 
truncated so that the "three-zones" could be saved for later, meaning 
the introduction of the XtremeII. The three-zone snare was not an 
issue because the XtremeII wouldn't have used it. But if Yamaha's 
upgraded cymbal was merely going to be their usual gum-rubber with an 
extra FSR-triggered voice, they may have decided to withhold it for 
the more expensive kit. By now, however, all of that could have 
changed. Just random thoughts. ultimately to no end.

Ed

> Ed wrote: "OGD, what purpose could the jumper have? Maybe the PCY65S was 
> truncated so that the "three-zones" could be saved for later, meaning 
> the introduction of the XtremeII. The three-zone snare was not an 
> issue because the XtremeII wouldn't have used it. But if Yamaha's 
> upgraded cymbal was merely going to be their usual gum-rubber with an 
> extra FSR-triggered voice, they may have decided to withhold it for 
> the more expensive kit. By now, however, all of that could have 
> changed. Just random thoughts. ultimately to no end."
> 
Ed,

If you notice in the photos for the TP65S there are three Resistors, R1, R2,
R3. Only R1 and R2 exists on the TP65, whick tells me they are used with the
piezo only.

Since the R3 resistor only exists in the TP65S it must be for the Rim
switches. If you had just one common rim switch (like in the PCY65S) then
the second lead present in the stereo cable out could pass that signal
without a need for a resistor.

So I am guessing that the resistor is be used to distinguish the different
between a signal being sent from Rim1 as oppose to from Rim2.

How that could works is like this (guess on my part, if I had to design one,
this is how I would proceed.) Let's say a 12volt signal would indicate that
the Rim1 FSR had triggered, and a say 6 volt signal (in-line resistor
reducing signal from 12 volts to 6 volts) would indicate a Rim2 FSR had
triggered. Simple. 

Since both sides of the FSR ribben in the PCY65S trigger the same sound,
there would be no need for a Resister to determine which of the two sounds
had triggered, and so only a jumper wire would be needed. So that regardless
of which side was struck the same say 12 volts signal would trigger the
common rim FSR switch.

What would be interesting to find out is if you were to buy a resistor that
matches the one in the TP65S and install it in the PCY65S in place of the
jumper and see if the two sides of the rim FSR trigger separate sounds. Then
with little expense and some soldering, the left side of the rim could be
the "Rim1=Bell pad", and the right side of the pad could be "Rim2=edge pad",
leaving the bow as the main cymbal sound.

OGD
 
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Okay, I've reviving a a really old thread because it sounded very
interesting...

Did anyone ever get around to trying what OGD suggested in separating
the two sides of the FSR in a PCY65S to make it a three zone?


--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, rdamon@... wrote:
>
>> Ed,
>
> If you notice in the photos for the TP65S there are three Resistors,
R1, R2,
> R3. Only R1 and R2 exists on the TP65, whick tells me they are used
with the
> piezo only.
>
> Since the R3 resistor only exists in the TP65S it must be for the Rim
> switches. If you had just one common rim switch (like in the PCY65S)
then
> the second lead present in the stereo cable out could pass that signal
> without a need for a resistor.
>
> So I am guessing that the resistor is be used to distinguish the
different
> between a signal being sent from Rim1 as oppose to from Rim2.
>
> How that could works is like this (guess on my part, if I had to
design one,
> this is how I would proceed.) Let's say a 12volt signal would indicate
that
> the Rim1 FSR had triggered, and a say 6 volt signal (in-line resistor
> reducing signal from 12 volts to 6 volts) would indicate a Rim2 FSR
had
> triggered. Simple.
>
> Since both sides of the FSR ribben in the PCY65S trigger the same
sound,
> there would be no need for a Resister to determine which of the two
sounds
> had triggered, and so only a jumper wire would be needed. So that
regardless
> of which side was struck the same say 12 volts signal would trigger
the
> common rim FSR switch.
>
> What would be interesting to find out is if you were to buy a resistor
that
> matches the one in the TP65S and install it in the PCY65S in place of
the
> jumper and see if the two sides of the rim FSR trigger separate
sounds. Then
> with little expense and some soldering, the left side of the rim could
be
> the "Rim1=Bell pad", and the right side of the pad could be "Rim2=edge
pad",

> leaving the bow as the main cymbal sound.
>
> OGD
>