Yamaha DTXpress/DTXplorer/DTXtreme

Hey guys! I'm new to the group and have been building electronic
kits 
for quite a few years. I would like to ask you all for a little help 
with an electronic drum set that I am currently refining for 
production. I have a working prototype and have secured a patent on 
it. There is a huge amount of expertise in this group and your 
comments, suggestions, concerns and yes, even your criticism, would 
be greatly appreciated. The kit is a self-contained electronic drum 
set that sets up automatically and collapses to between 8 and 10" 
thick for transport. I expect the production unit will weigh in the 
40-50 pound range. Once you do the initial adjustments to the kit, 
seat distance from kit, seat height, drum positions and angles and 
the foot pedal location (there are some adjustment limitations), the 
kit sets up exactly the same way, automatically, in a matter of 
seconds. All of the cables are routed through the frame and terminate 
at a plug receptacle that is located on the frame. A custom snake 
plugs into the plug receptacle on the frame and fans out to ¼"
plugs 
that connect to the sound trigger/sound module. The kit can be set up 
and you can be playing, honestly, in about 5 seconds. I worked as a 
repair tech for quite a few years in the music industry and many of 
the drummers that I worked with were looking for a kit that could be 
easily transported, but they still wanted to be able to sit down at a 
real kit. Anyway, I'm currently working as an 
electrical/mechanical 
engineer and I also operate a company that specializes in music 
jingles (Music Crafter). I have set up a dedicated page on my web 
sight where I have posted a few pictures of the kit (Peratron). The 
local reviews of the kit have been overwhelmingly good. If any of you 
get a chance, please stop by www.musiccrafter.com and take a look at 
the Peratron and let me know what you think. Thanks for your help, 
and I will be looking forward to hearing what the real electronic 
drummer thinks.  Here is the path directly to the page. 
http://www.musiccrafter.com/The_Peratron.asp 

Thanks!
Bob Wilson
bob@...

--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "musiccrafter2003" <bob@m...> wrote:
> Hey guys! I'm new to the group and have been building electronic
> kits 
> for quite a few years. I would like to ask you all for a little 
help 
> with an electronic drum set that I am currently refining for 
> production. I have a working prototype and have secured a patent on 
> it. There is a huge amount of expertise in this group and your 
> comments, suggestions, concerns and yes, even your criticism, would 
> be greatly appreciated. The kit is a self-contained electronic drum 
> set that sets up automatically and collapses to between 8 and 10" 
> thick for transport. I expect the production unit will weigh in the 
> 40-50 pound range. Once you do the initial adjustments to the kit, 
> seat distance from kit, seat height, drum positions and angles and 
> the foot pedal location (there are some adjustment limitations), 
the 
> kit sets up exactly the same way, automatically, in a matter of 
> seconds. All of the cables are routed through the frame and 
terminate 
> at a plug receptacle that is located on the frame. A custom snake 
> plugs into the plug receptacle on the frame and fans out to ¼"
> plugs 
> that connect to the sound trigger/sound module. The kit can be set 
up 
> and you can be playing, honestly, in about 5 seconds. I worked as a 
> repair tech for quite a few years in the music industry and many of 
> the drummers that I worked with were looking for a kit that could 
be 
> easily transported, but they still wanted to be able to sit down at 
a 
> real kit. Anyway, I'm currently working as an 
> electrical/mechanical 
> engineer and I also operate a company that specializes in music 
> jingles (Music Crafter). I have set up a dedicated page on my web 
> sight where I have posted a few pictures of the kit (Peratron). The 
> local reviews of the kit have been overwhelmingly good. If any of 
you 
> get a chance, please stop by www.musiccrafter.com and take a look 
at 
> the Peratron and let me know what you think. Thanks for your help, 
> and I will be looking forward to hearing what the real electronic 
> drummer thinks.  Here is the path directly to the page. 
> http://www.musiccrafter.com/The_Peratron.asp 

Bob,

Thanks for giving us the opportunity to look at your work. This being 
Christmas, I had only a brief moment to check out the site, but the 
kit looks solid and ergonomically ingenious. I'd love to know what 
the pads can do (what are the transducers are, how many, and where). 
What electronics did you use for testing the response? Do you have a 
target audience--for instance, those who would be prone to buying the 
DTXpress, the V-Club, the Bafo, etc.? I hope we can continue to 
discuss the kit in the days upcoming.

Ed

--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "emf" <liberatusvirus@y...> wrote:
> --- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "musiccrafter2003" <bob@m...> 
wrote:
> > Hey guys! I'm new to the group and have been building electronic
> > kits 
> > for quite a few years. I would like to ask you all for a little 
> help 
> > with an electronic drum set that I am currently refining for 
> > production. I have a working prototype and have secured a patent 
on 
> > it. There is a huge amount of expertise in this group and your 
> > comments, suggestions, concerns and yes, even your criticism, 
would 
> > be greatly appreciated. The kit is a self-contained electronic 
drum 
> > set that sets up automatically and collapses to between 8 and 10" 
> > thick for transport. I expect the production unit will weigh in 
the 
> > 40-50 pound range. Once you do the initial adjustments to the 
kit, 
> > seat distance from kit, seat height, drum positions and angles 
and 
> > the foot pedal location (there are some adjustment limitations), 
> the 
> > kit sets up exactly the same way, automatically, in a matter of 
> > seconds. All of the cables are routed through the frame and 
> terminate 
> > at a plug receptacle that is located on the frame. A custom snake 
> > plugs into the plug receptacle on the frame and fans out to ¼"
> > plugs 
> > that connect to the sound trigger/sound module. The kit can be 
set 
> up 
> > and you can be playing, honestly, in about 5 seconds. I worked as 
a 
> > repair tech for quite a few years in the music industry and many 
of 
> > the drummers that I worked with were looking for a kit that could 
> be 
> > easily transported, but they still wanted to be able to sit down 
at 
> a 
> > real kit. Anyway, I'm currently working as an 
> > electrical/mechanical 
> > engineer and I also operate a company that specializes in music 
> > jingles (Music Crafter). I have set up a dedicated page on my web 
> > sight where I have posted a few pictures of the kit (Peratron). 
The 
> > local reviews of the kit have been overwhelmingly good. If any of 
> you 
> > get a chance, please stop by www.musiccrafter.com and take a look 
> at 
> > the Peratron and let me know what you think. Thanks for your 
help, 
> > and I will be looking forward to hearing what the real electronic 
> > drummer thinks.  Here is the path directly to the page. 
> > http://www.musiccrafter.com/The_Peratron.asp 
> 
> Bob,
> 
> Thanks for giving us the opportunity to look at your work. This 
being 
> Christmas, I had only a brief moment to check out the site, but the 
> kit looks solid and ergonomically ingenious. I'd love to know what 
> the pads can do (what are the transducers are, how many, and 
where). 
> What electronics did you use for testing the response? Do you have 
a 
> target audience--for instance, those who would be prone to buying 
the 
> DTXpress, the V-Club, the Bafo, etc.? I hope we can continue to 
> discuss the kit in the days upcoming.
> 
> Ed

Hi Ed,

Quite honestly the pads/triggers that are on the prototype are 
unimpressive but work quite well, they have been a point of 
contingency for me all along. I have been spending a lot of time 
working on viable options. I have had correspondence with other pad 
manufacturers with the possibility of integrating their pads into my 
system, as well as prototyping custom pads for the unit. The 
requirements for fitting the pads on to the intricate frame of the 
Peratron is a delicate balancing act. I have considered offering 
options rubber or mesh head type but most of that is still up in the 
air. The cost of the pads becomes a major factor as well when you 
look at the overall cost of the unit. The target market overall seems 
to be more the older players that still love to gig. This is the 
group that seems to have the disposable income for the unit; they 
still love to play but are tired of the hassles of setting up the 
conventional kit. I have also had many acoustic drummers that have 
expressed interest just because of the sheer simplicity of the set-up 
and teardowns. The mechanics of this system will undoubtedly ad cost 
to the unit because there is more to it then just a tube frame. But 
any drummer that moves his kit fairly often would be a prime 
candidate for the Peratron. There seems to be a fair amount of 
Christian groups that have accepted electronic drums. I believe that 
this is in part because they can be turned not only up but down as 
well and many in there audiences prefer the drums at a lower volume. 
The Peratron would be an excellent choice for this group of drummers. 
If someone is going to set it up in there studio and never move it 
the Peratron is most likely not for them, the added cost of the 
integrated mechanisms would be hard to justify just to have a cool 
option. The finished unit will be a true touring kit very solid and 
very reliable and exceptionally portable, it won't be released until 
these requirements have all been achieved. Do you see strong 
preferences for the trigger surfaces? There seems to be as many 
options as there are players. At this point in time this is my 
biggest challenge. Thanks for the input. Here's the link again. 
http://www.musiccrafter.com/The_Peratron.asp 

Thanks
Bob

--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "musiccrafter2003" <bob@m...> wrote:
The cost of the pads becomes a major factor as well when you 
> look at the overall cost of the unit. The target market overall 
seems 
> to be more the older players that still love to gig. This is the 
> group that seems to have the disposable income for the unit; they 
> still love to play but are tired of the hassles of setting up the 
> conventional kit. I have also had many acoustic drummers that have 
> expressed interest just because of the sheer simplicity of the set-
up 
> and teardowns. The mechanics of this system will undoubtedly ad 
cost 
> to the unit because there is more to it then just a tube frame. But 
> any drummer that moves his kit fairly often would be a prime 
> candidate for the Peratron. 

Bob,

We certainly have our fair share of members who fit your projected 
audience. Many of us take e-kits to gigs, and many alternate them 
with acoustic sets as the situation warrants. But don't discount 
those who opt for e-drums because they practice mainly at home or in 
a dorm where space and noise are major factors. These people often 
need to have their kits take up as little room as possible when and 
after they use them. Yamaha's DTXpress has become more and more 
collapsible to meet such demands. The question of affordability is 
certainly significant, but in my experience, the more expensive the 
kit is, the more an older demographic will tend to be the major 
buyers. But the money that younger people have to buy what they 
consider to be a good product for the money continually astonishes 
me. Competition for e-drums at any price point for features offered 
is becomming more and more intense.

Do you see strong 
> preferences for the trigger surfaces? There seems to be as many 
> options as there are players. At this point in time this is my 
> biggest challenge. Thanks for the input. Here's the link again. 
> http://www.musiccrafter.com/The_Peratron.asp 

I see the trigger design as crucial. Regardless of how portable and 
manipulable setup may be, in the end, if triggering is compromised, 
sales among serious users will suffer. Even if potential buyers don't 
have a chance to try out a product firsthand before they buy, sites 
like this one can give a measure of information that can determine 
choice. One thing that we all have discovered over the years is that 
even though one company's pads will perform to some extent through 
another company's module, the match will not always be satisfactory. 
Personally, I have found out the hard way that Hart, Roland, and, for 
some, even Pintech pads can present triggering difficulties for 
Yamaha modules, which do not have the fine tuning for sensitivity 
that others do. The position of the piezo element in relation to the 
head can have a great effect in this regard. A few companies put a 
sensitivity control on the pad itself to improve the odds. Testing 
your pads with Roland, Yamaha, ALesis, ddrum--whatever you can get 
your hands on--would seem to be a good idea. You might have someone 
familiar with performance across a wide range of current products 
help with design.

Gum rubber certainly does not seem to be an impediment to entry-level 
sales, or sales in general. The durability and feel are to many e-
drummers' liking. Escalating sales of the DTXpress are a case in 
point. EVen if you end up using your own pads, however, the ability 
to attach others to your rack would seem to be an advantage--unless 
your overall product is perceived as singular and eminently desirable 
in its own right. That will depend on what its competition in the 
marketplace offers. Many e-drummers upgrade/change/experiment 
continually. If the basic equipment doesn't appear to support the 
ability to make changes, it may not stand the test. Mesh heads, 
especially for the snare, are an obvious next step for gum-rubber 
users.  step for many DTXpress and Roland V-Club users is a mesh head 
snare. 

I could go on, but 2 cents from me is probably a good stopping point. 
IIf any of us can help with beta testing pads for compatibility with 
various components, let us know. At the very least, someone could 
compare your pads with Yamaha's through a DTXpressII module, or 
perhaps any other number of permutations.

Ed

Ok, my $0.02... :)

Have you considered selling *just* the frame rather than populating it
with pads? If there is someone who has an e-kit and wants something more
portable and quicker to setup, you might be able to capture a market
right there.

If the unique selling position is the portability, it might be
"reinventing the wheel" to try and add pads. If you provided mount kits
for Pintech, Roland, Yamaha, etc, then people with *existing* kits could
use your frame.

For those who do not have an e-kit or existing pads/modules, you could
offer it pre-populated with their choice of pads/modules from the various
manufacturers who have spent ridiculous numbers of man-hours trying to
craft the "perfect pad".

This approach would make your patented "quick setup frame" an option for
*all* e-drummers, even those who already have a bunch invested in their
own pads and modules, while cutting down your cost for the product and
relieving you of a bunch of headaches ( i.e. R&D, pad replacement/repair,
compatibility testing, stocking, manufacturing etc.). If the main
"invention" is the frame, then... Why not just sell the frame..?

Vern

--
Vern Graner CNE/CNA/SSE    | "If the network is down, then you're
Senior Systems Engineer    | obviously incompetent so why are we
Texas Information Services | paying you? Of course, if the network
http://www.txis.com        | is up, then we obviously don't need
Austin Office 512 328-8947 | you, so why are we paying you?" VLG

--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "Vernon Graner" <vern@t...> wrote:
> Ok, my $0.02... :)
> 
> Have you considered selling *just* the frame rather than populating 
it
> with pads? If there is someone who has an e-kit and wants something 
more
> portable and quicker to setup, you might be able to capture a market
> right there.
> 
> If the unique selling position is the portability, it might be
> "reinventing the wheel" to try and add pads. If you provided mount 
kits
> for Pintech, Roland, Yamaha, etc, then people with *existing* kits 
could
> use your frame.
> 
> For those who do not have an e-kit or existing pads/modules, you 
could
> offer it pre-populated with their choice of pads/modules from the 
various
> manufacturers who have spent ridiculous numbers of man-hours trying 
to
> craft the "perfect pad".
> 
> This approach would make your patented "quick setup frame" an 
option for
> *all* e-drummers, even those who already have a bunch invested in 
their
> own pads and modules, while cutting down your cost for the product 
and
> relieving you of a bunch of headaches ( i.e. R&D, pad 
replacement/repair,
> compatibility testing, stocking, manufacturing etc.). If the main
> "invention" is the frame, then... Why not just sell the frame..?

Vern,

I think that's a great point. The frame might suffice, though I'd pay 
heed to the issues that Bob Giles raised elsewhere about making sure 
that it is adjustable enough to cover drummers' contingencies.

Ed

Hi guys, 
           I have been reading many posts over the last few months of being a 
member. I build Maple custom drums and even have a new site up on the web. 
www.KnipeDrums.com. Check it out its still under construction but if you would 
like to see anything special please let me know. Now that shameless self 
promotion has ended I will illustrate my thoughts below. I will be rolling out some 
edrum hardware stuff eventally also.

            I am an avid edrummer as well as acoustic drummer and builder. 
Mr. Wilsons kit has one intersting feature that I like. The frame. The idea is 
solid but to illustrate a point look at my kit. I use a Roland td8 with 7 toms 
and connect my crash cymbals to my roland SPD20. Compatibility is an issue 
with me especially for because I like rubber pads. I have had fantastic results 
with DrumTech's flat pads with my module. Cymbals I have had bad luck with 
(yamaha's, pintech) I now use cy6 roland cymbal pads with great results. I  wanted 
everything to be compact and light and small in size to be as portable as 
possible. All of which is on a heavy gibraltar frame. I have looked at dauz 6" 
pad for use as toms to make my setup smaller  along with a new lighter frame. I 
am working on a aluminum rack setup as we speak.  What I have learned from all 
of this experimenting. I should have bought the Yamaha DTXpress. 
Compatibility is a huge issue whenever I change my kit. Manufacturers dont make their 
products conform to any standard for use with other equipment. Although this group 
is a huge resource and has helped me tremendously I have my best luck when I 
stay withing the manufacturers specs. 
          
              Mr. Wilson, everything I have read in these posts and 
everywhere in the edrumming community is about tweaking, expansion, adaptability and 
compatibility. So if it isnt expandable, adaptable or compatible it probably 
wont sell. 

               Sorry to be critical. Thomas Knipe
P.S. The one thing I can tell you about customers that I have built Kits for 
is the only comman thread is that they are all different.

--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, Tomiboy4@a... wrote:
> Hi guys, 
>            I have been reading many posts over the last few months 
of being a 
> member. I build Maple custom drums and even have a new site up on 
the web. 
> www.KnipeDrums.com. Check it out its still under construction but 
if you would 
> like to see anything special please let me know. 

Tom,

Thanks for the info. At the very least, let us know when the site is 
up and running. We'll add a link to it here and place any product 
material that you have on file. Also, we are available to offer 
feedback about any e-gear that you might like to send along.

Ed

Tomiboy4@... said:
> www.KnipeDrums.com. Check it out its still under construction
> but if you would like to see anything special please let me know.

How about a web site that doesn't require plugins to view? Try to
remember your own advice about being compatible with all different
products (Mozilla, Opera, WebTV, etc). :)

Sorry to be critical, but there are too many websites today that require
the user use Internet Exploiter and/or flash and/or Javascript in order
to just *view* it. really irritating as I run a light weight browser for
speed and I all I have it set to handle is (gasp!) HTML!! :O

Vern

-- 
Vern Graner CNE/CNA/SSE    | "If the network is down, then you're
Senior Systems Engineer    | obviously incompetent so why are we
Texas Information Services | paying you? Of course, if the network
http://www.txis.com        | is up, then we obviously don't need
Austin Office 512 328-8947 | you, so why are we paying you?" VLG