Digital BW, The Print

unfortunately the non-brightened Alise version has never been submitted. It's an economical and nice paper and would have been the go to version for some inksets that benifit from a colder coating reaction. Oddly, the brightened version Epson hot and cold press seem to be doing pretty well in terms of brightener burn off. By the way, it turns out these papers are not rebranded Alise as I suspected, even though they look and perform remarkable similar.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john" <deanwork2003@...> wrote:
>
> Absolutely. Optical brighteners or whiteners are not all created equal as we have learned. Hahnemuhle, although still using traditional "dye" brighteners in small quantities in the manufacture of many of their papers like Photo Rag (not on the surface of the coating as in a lot of Epson papers) are holding up quite well and we have whole lot of samples to compare with all kinds of inks and PR was one of the first to be tested.
> 
> I have switched over the Canson paper for many of my surfaces though, that are quite a bit whiter, and in all their high-end matte papers are not dye obas but pigments, so it is said. We are waiting to see if this stability pans out over time. It seems like Mark was more concerned about them actually bleaching whiter than staining to yellow as most obas do. We'll see.
> 
> The really interesting thing to me is how quickly the Epson Exhibiton Fine Art is burning out in the high values, so much for Wilhelm's ratings. Since this is the same paper as the Innova Fiber Gloss I stay away from it now also. I never did trust that bluish stuff and now I know for sure. 
> 
> Kind if interesting that no one is using pigment whiteners in fiber gloss media. I don't understand that. Even Canson isn't. Most companies, including them, are offering a non-whitened and a whitened version of everything.Maybe gloss white pigments are difficult to deal with, must be.
> 
> john
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <roark.paul@> wrote:
> >
> > "john" <deanwork2003@> wrote:
> > >
> > > ... the Premier Alise with whiteners ... fell apart fast. ...
> > 
> > It would be nice to know more about whiteners.
> > 
> > Looking at a small sample of Aardenburg-Imaging test results, mostly from the  highly brightened category, the following tends to support what you've observed.
> > 
> > 
> > Paper: 		Start Lab B,	10 MLuxHrs, 	50 MLuxHrs
> > 
> > Alise: 		-3.1,		-0.3		0.8
> > 
> > Epson Prem PPM	-4.4		-2.5		0.6
> > 
> > Fuji DL 400 Mat -7.7		-8.1		-7.0
> > 
> > Br'g Color Velv -2.1		-2.7		-0.2
> > 
> > Eps Exh Fiber	-5.0		-3.4		1.6
> > 
> > 
> > H Photo Rag	0.9		-0.1		0.8
> > 
> > HPR is obviously not from the highly brightened category, but it has always impressed me with its lack of warming -- possibly balancing the fading of the brighteners with the bleaching  of the paper  base.
> > 
> > 
> > I suppose  ultimately the paper base color  will be where the image white ends up.  But if  that paper itself has been brightened, then we might not be  able to tell what the underlying paper  Lab B is.
> > 
> > The information in Ernst's paper database would be interesting to correlate with how long the papers will stay bright.
> > 
> > In  wonder how Fuji manages to keep it's DL 400 matte paper so bright for so long.  I tend to think Fuji knows a  lot about dyes and chemistry.  Maybe they've come up with a Claria-quality brightener dye.
> > 
> > Paul
> > www.PaulRoark.com
> >
>