Digital BW, The Print

Della wrote:

> No need to get angry Mike!

I'm not angry.

> You are the one who speaks from a confusing context.
> If I made a mistake it is only because of what you
> have written.

Ok, if you say so.

> So before you get upset with me and my
> not choosing my words carefully - look at your words.
> I can only understand what you write. If you want me
> to understand you then try consistency in your words
> which you write! It is only common courtesy to
> practice what it is you expect from others before you
> correct them.

Ok, I agree.

> You called the Piezo profiles "canned profiles" and
> explained that they compress the blacks.

Yes, they are closed "ICQ" profiles provided for a certain limited selection
of papers. They are canned, meaning that they come with the program and
that's all you get. A truely open system would allow you to use standard ICC
profiles, thereby no longer being canned.

> Now you say
> of course they get lighter from one tone to another.
> The profiles can not evenly distribute tone from one
> point to another and then compress at the same time.

Yes they can Della, think about it. The change is density from one to the
next can be almost infinite. The example I cited is a Stoffer step wedge
where the standrad separation is .15 density units. It is certainly possible
to have a variable change in density or in simpler terms increase the
density separation in the highlights and contract or compress it in the
shadows yest still maintain the overall Density Range or (DR).

> It is linear. Yes black appears only at 100% and then
> graduates in a lighter fashion from 99, 98, 97, 96, 95
> and so forth until 0. How can you have compression and
> even distribution at the same time?

My point exactly. You can't. and Cones profiles are not linear. They are
expanded in the highlights and contracted in the shadows effectively adding
contrast to the image printed.

> Compression
> implies a curve in the shadows. The Piezo is linear.
> So your suggestion implied a curve in "your" shadows
> and I was only trying to help you.

Go ahead and measure your 21 step Piezo strip that came with the software.
Then graph it in Excel or some other program. I believe that you will indeed
see that the result is a curve. I have, and it is a curve.

> You must understand that I read a few messages ago
> that you announced to this list that you were having
> profiles created at your expense for the ImagePrint.
> So I read this and think that you believe somehow that
> the Piezography profiles are poor or "canned" as you
> wrote which implies negative associations.

No, not at all. The Piezography profiles do an excellent job. They give the
end user lovely images. My point is that I want to print what I see on the
screen monitor. I do not want the driver adding anything to my image. I
prefer to previsualize, develop based upon my testing, scan my film with a
calibrated scanner workflow, and print what I have captured and manipulated
on the screen.


>You were
> very excited to get profiles created for the
> ImagePrint and receive recognition for it. This to me
> sounded as positive association. So it is only natural
> to infer that you are having problems with your Piezo
> system which you believe another system would correct.

Once again not true. I don't have a Piezo system, I only use ImagePrint 4
for printing. And further I announced that I was having curves profiled for
use with the MIS/Piezo inks so that others who use this system could benefit
from the action.

> Now you write you do not even use the Piezography
> anymore. So now what do your observations mean? I am
> only an observer but it seems to me that this list is
> controlled by a few men who are trying either to out
> best each other or to be negative against other user's
> systems in favor of their own preferred system if it
> differs.

Dominated by who?
OK so in your estimation those with years of Digital printing  experience
should back off and let those seeking advice spend years making mistakes and
working out the issues for themselves? That is narrow, self centered and
outrageous. There is no ego here, we are only trying to advance the art and
help other save money and make great prints. This is a Digital BW list, not
geared to one product or another. We ask all who use varying products to
share their experiences and information. In fact, I have been working with
an Epson 10000 developing curves to print palladium, platinum, neutral and
selenium tone look images without the use of any third part product. As soon
as I am ready, I will share that infor FREE of charge.

>If you read the list back which I have done
> this morning it is very plain that it is dominated by
> men who either subtly or with much robust attacking
> other men users with opinions which differ from their
> own.

You are mis-judging those here. Yes there is heated debate from time to time
(witness the Foveon), but the wealth of information shared is advancing the
state of the art.

> I subscribed under the condition that it
> discusses all systems. You have even written that you
> have a mandate of some sort to protect others from
> making the same mistakes that you have with the Piezo
> system. Others using the same system have not made
> your mistakes. I am one who tried and returned to
> Piezo for the control. Your mistakes are your
> mistakes.

Della, that is so far from the truth that I am amazed you have written it.
There are hundreds of people on and off ths lists that have problems with
all sorts of products. Piezo inks are problematic that many and I mean many
people have clogs, sludge, green prints, and density loss/shift. These are
real people with real problems. After I had to replace the heads on my 7000
which BTW is no inexpensive proposition I switched to MIS inks. Guess what,
no problems!, no sludge, no green prints, no density loss. BUT, also
remember that I use Epson inks in my 10000, and now Generations in my 1280.
I am not operating with a hidden agenda against anyone. In fact I received
an email offllist from one of out list members with an email from JHon Cone
attached that stated Cone would be releasing a new improved Piezo ink very
shortly to fix the problems that people have been having. Sounds like a real
concern on his part to me!

> Yes Mike, I do not know your work only your words. I
> am not angry with you Mike. But you do not need to
> attack people when they try to help you. No one is the
> best expert. Everyone has something to learn from
> everyone. Look at the world around us - how can we
> expect peace if strangers on a list can not help each
> other?

I attacked you? Sorry, you were the one that called my outlook and position
antiquated I believe.  I have no ax to gring with Cone, but if he continues
to sell a product that clogs printers, then we will all discuss the
situation and provide informative information based upon our experiences to
help others make informed decisions.

I am glad you like the Piezo product., The plugin driver is excellent.
Continue to have great success and enjoy the process.

Best Reagrds
Mike