Digital BW, The Print

Hi Keith,

I agree in general terms with almost everything you wrote. I'm not 
sure you can stuff a Yahoo or AOL into the marketing model you're 
trying to build.

>1)  Yahoo! has been showing a profit..

What's that got to do with the issue at hand?  Yahoo isn't known for 
it's benevolence. I'm guessing they're trying to make more money 
rather than save money. There is a difference. They're probably not 
interested offering dividends to their loyal users of free services.

>3)    No-one forced YAHOO! to purchase e-groups, as an example..

Who said that when you took over an entity you had to leave it intact?

>
>The problem, as I see it today,  is as follows...
>
>No-one begrudges them revenue, but do you think they might even TRY to
>coordinate advertising with list content?

That would cost more.

>
>Wouldn't ads from EPSON, MediaStreet, TSS, Lyson, Luminos, Canon, etc.
>get more clickthroughs on this list than do the random ads we get now?

Why not try to get one or several of the above to sponsor a list on 
their site and leave Yahoo?

>
>Instead, we get adds for X10 wireless cameras, credit repair,
>scholarships, cd's, whatever...  They have naturally targeted lists and
>yet they use birdshot from a blunderbuss to target their advertising..
>  Talk about "not a clue!"

The above are mass market appeal. Epson, et al are not likely to pay 
much for banners that may only appeal to a few thousand people. 
Consider it this way: How many people on the 'Digital BW' group have 
never heard of Epson? Now, the Hewlett Packard guys might want to 
throw a log on the fire.  :-)   I believe the 'Digital BW' group is 
way above average in size. For Yahoo to build a marketing staff 
around tailoring ads to groups of only a few hundred would make no 
economic sense.

>
>The fact is, they want a quick and easy, no-effort way to make an
>assured revenue stream.. That doesn't exist in any business.. It existed
>for a brief time in the dot-com lands, but not today...

Maybe, maybe not.  I guess they'll find out.  Most of California and 
a lot of Florida was built on that premise!

>
>
>If they don't tailor their ENTIRE model to the real world, it won't
>work..

That's exactly why there are no 'niche' ads/banners.

>  Right now they are only apparently focused upon the short-term
>cash-flow without doing the obvious things I mentioned about advertising
>etc.. You don't advertise Geritol on the Cartoon channel or Nick at
>Night... they seem to be at a loss when it comes to learning some of the
>basic lessons traditional media have known for years..

Shotgun advertising has been around for a long time....
And, given current marketing trends, you don't try to sell Geritol to 
old people either.

>
>  >
>  > Is the information on this or any other group worth more than what is
>  > presently being paid?
>  > If so, there are lots of options and all of them are more or less
>  > spam-free and ad-free.
>
>Such as?

The IBMWR organization for one.  The groups at DPreview, the DV-L 
list, all the majordomo stuff...there are lots of them out there. 
None of them were as easy to form as the yahoo groups.  As far as 
libraries, reference material, etc, the IBMWR list has more 
information on how to properly torque an oil filter than the sum 
total of information in the 'Digital BW' archive. Rebuilding the 
group on a different platform isn't impossible, but it would take a 
little work.  What price freedom?

>
>Which of those options preserves the current  group oriented format,
>prevents spam abuse and culling of names, and has the same real-time
>response cycle.

SPAM-abuse is greater on the Yahoo groups than any of the independent 
lists to which I belong.  Further, Yahoo hasn't been that real-time. 
I and others have had messages that would have gotten there faster 
via USPS.
Anyway, see the above lists.

>And there is no guarantee that any hosted service will
>remain ad/spam free.

Reference the above lists, I've never seen the spam discussions that 
Yahoo seems to generate. Of course, I've never noticed any banner 
ads, either.

>  Clearly YAHOO is trying to redefine the paradigm
>unilaterally... If they succeed unimpeded, others will follow suit..

They will probably succeed, but there will be fallout.  It may depend 
on how seriously others view either side of the issue.

>
>  >
>  > If not, live with it as you are getting what you paid for.
>  >
>  >
>But that is inaccurate... We have all already paid for past service by
>enduring the advertising becoming more and more intrusive, e-mail spam,
>etc..


If the user is willing to tolerate/ignore the ads, their perception 
is that the service is free.  And Yahoo is banking on that.  Of the 
groups that I presently am a member, I have not seen ANYONE willing 
to spend a few bucks to become ad-free.

>  And that would be a FAIR choice if people knew about the changes
>to their user and group preferences..  It's not at all fair when YAHOO!
>makes those changes in a covert and underhanded manner.

That's Yahoo...love it or leave it...

>
>The issue is, like any in marketing,  what cost is the market willing to
>bear?

My question, exactly!

>
>Complaints, etc.. tell the marketers where the boundaries are and how to
>take that into account when looking at cost/profit ratios.. One doesn't
>simply "vote with one's feet and leave"  as Harry Truman said.  There is
>feedback in the process other than simple numbers..

When you have marketing people and trends such as Paypal's people 
making statements that they don't give any real credence to letters 
of complaint as those complainers are just a vocal minority that 
would complain about anything, voting with your feet is just about 
the only other choice.


I still think the question of the day is: Is the information from 
this group or another worth paying anything for?
Again, no reflection on any individual or group.  Simply what is the 
information worth?

I'm done.
Please, everyone go out(or in) and make some images, take some 
pictures, create some art, or whatever it is you do.  If that's not 
more satisfying than typing on a keyboard, then.... oh never mind. 
And if you bring one back alive, consider adding it the the group's 
vast library of 2  (two!!!) images.  Strange, a photo group that has 
50 or 60 pages of mathematical formulas but only two photos!   :-) 
:-)   :-)  Just kidding!

Robbe Gibson
www.robbepp.com
'00 R1100RT, K6RAG, '01 TJ, '71 Westy, F5, EOS-1HV, D30, Wisner tech 
field 4x5, G4 Powerbook
Pick whichever floats your wagon. :-)

Oh yeah, and if anyone in the Orange County, Southern California area 
is interested in getting together for some 'my clog is bigger than 
your clog' stories, I'll buy the first round!