Digital BW, The Print

No problem, inkjet's been a fast developing technology and it's 
nice to see it being used in it's highest form-in my opinion. It's 
regretable that there are so many bitter indivuals out there but 
after spending the last couple of months in this group I've finally 
seen for myself why people are getting so understandably frustrated. 
It will be interesting to see how the art develops- Cone is pricing 
himself out of the market with MIS hard on his heels but they and 
anyone else using the Piezography software with knock-off inks will 
reach obsolence as better software and printer systems come into 
being. It seems most people arent to fond of the curves thing and it 
sounds like a lot of work which ultimatly distracts the end user from 
enjoying the actual printing-not to mention making a living. Cone's 
ink problems will be fixed and there is always a cheaper ink supplier 
out there- I'll be laughing when someone starts touting VM-set 
inksets for only six bucks per 4 oz bottle-especially if it's my ink. 
By the way are you still waiting for that ultimate inkset/driver 
combo cause it sounds rather... interesting. It could be done with 
all pigments (cursed dyes, how we hate them, hate them I say) but the 
yellow would have some uv light issues.
Danm I write too much! Slap with a wet noodle and call me prolix. 

Jeff

> Jeff,
> 
> Thanks for all the history and additional info on the birth of the 
quad industry. Much appreciated.
> 
> Martin Wesley
> http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html
> 
> 
> 
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: iwasnvrhere 
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y... 
>   Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 11:04 AM
>   Subject: [Digital BW] Re: For Martin About Marketing
> 
> 
>      Hey Martin, Some info you might find enlightening, It's kinda 
long-
>   sorry.
>   In your repsonse to:     
>   > Evan,
>   > 
>   > I think that it is not obvious just who MIS or ConeTech or some 
of 
>   the other companies are. The operative word is that they are 
small 
>   companies. Very small. On top of that, the quad ink side of these 
>   operations is only a portion of their business.
> 
>    {Exactly, the quad ink volumes are tiny even for aftermarket 
inkjet 
>   suppliers. You can tell how significant the ink sales are by how 
>   responsive the supplier is. I would quess whoever is supplying 
MIS's 
>   inks ( I don't think they make thier own) is very small indeed 
since 
>   they have been very responsive to MIS's needs. 
>   > 
>   > My understanding is that MIS is a 2 to 4 person operation with 
all 
>   of the technical side being handled by the founder Bob Zeiss. I 
am 
>   not part of the organization but I don't imagine there is not a 
lot 
>   of profit in this business and certainly none to spend on 
software 
>   development without pumping up the price of the ink drastically. 
As I 
>   recall MIS came out with the first set of quads for the 3000 back 
>   in '98 or '99 (Someone jump in here if you have more or better 
info, 
>   I have only been around this since late 2000.) The assumption 
>   was, "Here is some ink, see what you can do with it." People like 
>   Tyler Boley and Dan Culbertson took a stab at it learning how to 
do 
>   their own CYMK separation curves. MIS's objective was just to 
market 
>   the ink.
> 
>   {   Actually Lyson was on the ground floor here but they took so 
long 
>   developing (apparently thier formulating chemist became rather 
>   preoccupied with tonal range capabilities and never stopped 
playing 
>   with them) and they were using dyes that Sundance gave up on them 
and 
>   went to another company. The request was a quad black inkset for 
the 
>   Epson 3000 with 130 years of INDOOR lightfastness. "Indoor 
>   lightfastness" the chemist asked, "yes" they replied asked. So a 
>   chemist developed the current Piezography inks for the Epson 3000 
>   that wouldn't fade under indoor light conditions for at least 130 
>   years. The chemist decided to raise the bar and make the inkset 
last 
>   way beyond that and used carbon which will last forever (the 
>   Piezography site mentions the halflife of carbon as 5000 years 
but 
>   that's only carbon 14, carbon 13 and carbon 12 will be here even 
>   after the universe is long dead and dark). But the carbon inks 
>   were "too warm" so a dye was added to tone the tone to a more 
neutral 
>   tone -big mistake but live and learn. These inks went to market 
mid 
>   1999 I think.  Later MIS actually was going to buy the same inks 
from 
>   the same company but do to exclusivity and cooperation issues 
they 
>   decided that Sundance alone would be able to purchase these inks 
>   which was fair since they were integral in their development 
cycle. 
>   At that point I imagine MIS went to another ink supplier and 
>   requested a "knock-off" of the Piezography inks. Thus MIS's 
original 
>   compatible set was born-with the same uv fade problem as the 
Piezo 
>   inks. }  
>   > 
>   > ConeTech came later and building on their Iris printing 
experience 
>   tackled both the ink and the software. They are often criticized 
for 
>   the cost of their products but I think this is really unfair 
given 
>   the development costs, the small size of the market, cost of 
customer 
>   support, and the quality of the product. I think the easiest and 
most 
>   trouble free way to get into quads is to buy the Piezo software 
in 
>   its cheapest form ($335) and run it with the MIS FS inks in a 
CIS. 
>   This will get making great prints with no clogs very quickly. It 
will 
>   set you back about $600 - $700 (not including a printer) but in 
the 
>   scope of things I think it is a pretty good deal.
>    
>     {I definetly agree with you here, the development the plug in, 
>   curves, and inkset was very expensive but it works and it works 
>   really well so all parties agree that it was worth it. But the 
>   problem is the path the inks follow is this. The inks a made and 
sold 
>   to Sundance who in turn ships them to a cartridge filler who 
fills 
>   cartridges and bottles for a fee. Then the inks/carts go to Cone 
who 
>   finally sells them to end users. That's four degrees of 
separation 
>   from start to finish and accounts for the high price of the 
>   Piezography ink, Cone's not greedy, it's the product flow. This 
has 
>   also made it a nightmare for the ink chemist (not inkologist by 
the 
>   way) to address the issues with that set. The "greenies" and 
issues 
>   with the CIS system to name a few. By the time problems came to 
the 
>   person who could fix them they had gone though five people: the 
>   customer with the problem-pro photographer usually, Cone's people-
>   also digi/photography people, then Sundance-software/imaging 
>   specialist, and finally to the chemist. By then the problem is so 
>   filtered and distorted a solution was impossible.  This is why 
the 
>   clog and greenies issues that some people run into haven't been 
fixed 
>   yet. Very frustrating for all parties involved.}
> 
>    
>   > To my mind it may make good sense to have separate companies 
>   working on the inks and the software. They require such different 
>   technical backgrounds, trying to cover both may not be a good 
>   business decision.
>     
>     {Right, even the huge OEM's contract most or all their ink from 
>   other companies. It's called toll blending or toll munufacturing. 
The 
>   OEM supplies the formula and the ink company makes it-quietly.}
>    
>    
>   > The other issue is that Epson has announced a B&W solution that 
>   will come with the next generation of printers. I am not 
confident 
>   they will meet my standards but they will satisfy a lot of 
people. 
>   Why would such small companies as MIS and ConeTech invest in 
software 
>   development in the face of such deep pockets as Epson?
>    
>    {Be patient, some cool things may happen in the not too distant 
>   future.}
> 
>   Jeff
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]