Digital BW, The Print

Nij,

I see You sell one of this systems. I didn't know - how did you dare 
to tell what tubes that was used on "your" selling system - I'm glad 
you did but also astonished.... However you gave me the track and 
helped me. 

Let solve the problem.

There is no problems for You as I can see - It's my fault in a way - 
right - being a baby using my three 1290's.

What did I do wrong - I as an engineer built them - and found it a 
very simple no nonce construction - it's the idea that is brilliant.
It is some bottles, some tubes and a connection to the carts. 
Somthing to hold it toghther - there is no sort of religion in that.
By plugging the carts you get a slight underpressure in the carts 
that soakes the "ink" into the carts - that's it , a splended idea - 
with a very simple solution.

What can go wrong if everything works "mechanicly" - just one thing -
the choice of material for that construction - nothing else.

The other things that can go wrong - I know them all - I did some of 
them to test - and not to test - Never touch a cartrige when placed 
in the printer - those cheap carts without popetvalves naturaly soaks 
air if lifted as there is an underpressure in them.
Those carts are bad - compared to Epsons original with popetvalves as 
well with a screenfilter. By the way MIS has a screenfilter in it's 
carts - that's OK - but still not as good as epsons Original 
cartriges. I take it for granted that NIJ's carts has that 
screenfilter as well - I don't no or care! Mine has it anyway!
I think this screenfilters are important as if we got "grease" into 
the cartrige as well - that must be a must!

So in the end about the systems - they are like twins but have as 
twins slightly different approach - almost not to se looking at it 
technicaly!

Then - we are here again - what's left - yes the choice of material 
for the parts.
As allready stated I have been in contact with Saint-Gobain - and 
their engineers - and we talk the same languge since I'm an 
Civilengineer myself among other things.

We are now testing other tubes - the delivered tube are not suited as 
a good choice! That's it.

We are also talking prices - and I might help those that belive in my 
investigation - and my experinces on my one of my systems.

Remember that this CAN happen even to a dye printer - as when 
glycerol is emtyied from whater it's like grease - this is the case 
if you seldom use the printer - and the tubes are exposed with the 
same ink to air then you use it again - but the "glycerolgrease" is 
still there and if you wait some time untiln you use the printer 
again - the glyserol will buikd up further. With dispersionink (qaud, 
or pigment it's worse - her also the pigment settles)
This grease is then exposed to air by absorbtion - because of the bad 
tubes - and make it further worse - and might als affect the density 
of inks - it's characteristic by oxidating etc etc)

The tubes I'm getting has either a Fluorethylene coating in it or is 
made of tetrafluoroethylene-polymere.

Ther will certainly be many tryings before we get one with the right 
Shore hardnes and the right flexabilitu to run smouth!

If not this company can do it there are others to grab - there are 
plenty of factories and companies doing this tubes for industry and 
hospitaluse. We will find a "RR" I think!   

My advice - go on buying - change the tubes when they are found!

MIS or NIJ's - for me that's twins they are just lookalikes.
Ihad bought the chepest - that also can deliver lots of inks and 
solutions. It's up to You though!

So let's come to the conclusion

OK: Belive Nij - there is No problems - buy his system it's 
exellent , marvoulus - splended.

Or buy any system and change tubes when on market or recomended!

I have used the whole day speaking and asking, learning about the 
tubes they offer - the tubes Nij gave me is for the purpose "sh..t".
They agree It has both absorbtion of air (inwards) and permation 
(outwords) - the permation make the fluid evaporate when it hits the 
surface of the tube, the absorbtion is oxidating (or can oxidate) 
things inside the tube. That's facts - call TYGON (That is Saint-
Gobain
a major company in this business) After several talks and E-mails it 
clear for me - that they as well as for me that tubes are 
not "really" proper for it purpose "regarding the time of use and the 
low flow of fluids in it - add to that - they question the fluids 
chemical mixture - "And We would never sugest that tube for that 
purpose" end qoute)

Now I'm getting some samples from them that has all the suggested and 
intellectually "right" ones to test. They don't absorb air and they 
don't permatate. It's so simple when you study it Nij. 
The tubes will cost some dollars more of cause - but I had been glad 
to pay those dollars from the beginning - it's not much - for them 
this tubes are small and the dollars we talk about is unsignificant
regarding the total sum for such a system.

The one chosed on your system is one of the cheapest.
I suppose that's the same with MIS - but I can not talk for them - I 
have still not got their information.
And sending mail to them is a lottery! You must call them - for sure 
they answer! That's good!

Do you really think I do this for scaring people! Not at all!
Its an alert for two things:
1/The tubes are not suited for the application.
2/It might explane some odd things that has happened - and there was 
no answers for many of them - perhaps here are a lot of answers.

That's it Nij and I'm sorry that this was so long!

I'm so tired now that I don't even will correct my errors here.
Please remember I'm not a english/US man 

I'm made in Sweden

By the way - buy Nij's system - I have seen that he tells it's 
superior to anything reading all inlays from You Nij. /smile/

None of them are best - all the systems suffer from bad quality 
tubing!

And I'm sorry if Nij is right - If I scared you all - that's not good 
for business/smile/!

Best Regards
Bo Wrangborg

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Nij" <nigel@m...> wrote:
> Hi Bo,
> 
> I just told you what is on the system I use and sell. However, it 
is for MIS
> to answer if that is the tubing they use (i.e. that you have on your
> system).
> 
> However, I would dispute with you that it (the tygon tubing) 
is 'sh..t'! I
> follow your logic on the possible loss of liquid from the ink-
lines, but I
> disagree... and whether or not you have that actual make/model of 
tubing is
> not necessarily true by default... indeed, if it is not written on 
the
> tubes... it possibly is not.
> 
> I understand that you probably have to change the tubes yourself 
anyway,
> given that yours are greased up, but I would disagree that the size 
of the
> tube is not important. This is my gut feeling, I do not have 
scientific
> knowledge. But, too thin, and I think you will have problems due to
> resistance and limited ink flow. Too thick, and possible problems 
due to
> loss of any kind of capillary action and too much weight of ink for 
the
> print head to pull ink (or the support bar to hold, or the print 
head to
> shift back and forth, who knows?).
> 
> It is not helpful to scare people when the absolute majority of 
users are
> working fine with their CIS / CFS / whatever with what they have... 
and have
> in many cases been running for a long time.
> 
> Should your post and your knowledge be ignored? No. But to vent 
your anger
> at one product part because you have had a problem _in_ it is not
> necessarily correct. Even though you have some apparently scientific
> evidence as to why it might be a problem, it does not make it _the_
> problem... just 'maybe'... or perhaps a number of problems came 
together to
> cause your problem!
> 
> What are MIS doing to help you?
> 
> I wish you well in resolving your problems!
> 
> best regards,
> nij
> 
> Nigel Rheam
> MWORDS Limited   www.mwords.co.uk   Digital Fine Art
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: sm7bxd [mailto:sm7bxd@y...]
> > Sent: 15 May 2002 05:31
> > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
> > Subject: [Digital BW] Re: RED ALERT - Attension - MIS Black!
> >
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Hi - I have been investigating all night -
> >
> > look at this "Chemfluor® FEP Tubing"  it's 55 Shore soft I was
> > thinking of that when doing this "job" - the same as the "old bad
> > ones"! The same Shore softness as the ones we have - Nij said it 
was
> > "Tygon® Vacuum Tubing Formulation R-3603" and it has also 55 
Shore.
> >
> > Bingo!
> >
> > Have the look here:
> >
> > http://www.tygon.com/new/europe/english/en_europe_index.html
> >
> > Scroll this side until you find it! It has as I see it everything
> > I'm looking for - perhaps I'll call England or France tomorrow 
(hmmm.
> > today...that is)
> >
> > I want this solved - give a damn what it costs - it is just some
> > tubes of quality I want! That can't be a fortune!
> > Maybee the fright is higher...not unusal bying smal no nonce 
things!
> >
> >
> > For now I think it is what I'm looking for - shall also talk to my
> > friens "hospitalengineer/designer" about it - It's exacly how he
> > described what to look for. And it has the same "softness" as the
> > ones that we use now! But that's not all - perhaps som inovation 
is
> > to be done - they don't give the diameters on the web - however -
> > with some fittings that shall be of no problems.
> >
> > I was thinking of some selfclosing connections I found anyway - to
> > ease maintenance and cleaning! They are made in a way that most 
small
> > tubes fit and also if not the exact dimension is found (it's
> > european) and are certainly made in the metric system) they may 
also
> > help to connect to the cartriges - using the "old bad" tube to
> > connect to the new "real ones". The selfclosing connection is 
conic
> > in bothe directions and you just cut a bit of the cone to meke 
them
> > perfect!
> >
> > That's it!
> >
> > Two -three hours sleep now - and then on it again calling England 
or
> > France and have a talk!
> >
> > They must have resellers in Scandinavia as well!
> >
> > Problems - hard (somtimes amusing) work - sulution!
> > Most of anything is out there - the industri must run - we benefit
> > that!
> >
> > Throw out old bad cheap things that don't cost to begin with!
> >
> > Still I'm a bit upset - seeing what you can get - but an eloge to 
Nij,
> > if he hadn't told me what "sh..t" that we used - I would have to 
do
> > one more day of work to find out!
> > Thanks again NIJ!
> > Thanks again Jeff!
> >
> > This is how discussiongroups schould work!
> >
> >
> > Non plus Ultra!
> >
> > Here You fellows soon!
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Bo Wrangborg
> > Made in Sweden