Digital BW, The Print

Attension fellows,


The following has happend to me,

First of all I'm an "heavy" amateur - Either "Switch on" or "switch 
off" -that is one week full of printing - three weeks of doing your 
job and taking photoes.

I have three 1290's with CFS from MIS - everything has been 
wonderfull until now.

The dispersion or "colloid" that the carbonparticles are floating in
does not work allways - or a did have a bad batch!

I do run all my epsons twice a week - to keep them fit!
No problems so far!

BUT - yesterday morning the black stopped - it should not have - I 
know my darling epsons.

At last (I normaly not do this a losend all straps holding the 
cartriges in place) took out the cartriges and was planing for
an investigation - What the .... has happened.

Standing there at the end black up to my elbows - a found it at last!

The black tube "was closed" whatever I did to get ink out or air in 
was "mission impossible" - Something was in that tube! For sure?

As I pressed the tube all along with my fingers I didn't find a thing!

The last thing i did was pressing the tube with the fingers of one 
hand and drawing the tube constantly with the other hand!

AND THERE IT WAS - real dark grease as thick or mor thick as greases 
for my old other hobby - my Mercedes 1950 170S. 

Afterwords I could clean the tube with water.

Conclusions
1/ The dispersion or colloid doesnt ork as ment.
   The corbon (or pigment for color) goes to the bottum of the
   flasks - are soaked up - and settels somewhere in the tubes - 
   (and in the cartriges?)

2/ That means - that if You have uneven blacks or "greenies" or
   other problems with Your result (think for yourself - there are
   many inlays about strange fenomena.....hmmm....)

3/ Shall I use this inks? 

I shall shy - also mension the following - I have just two instead of 
three 1290's by now. What I did - was very tired - put an full black 
cartrige and a full colorcartrige in when doing the things above. 
As i was angry and tired the black cartrige was without any chip....
after trying to do some "cleaningcycles" I saw that the red lamp was 
blinking - and was told to put a black cartrige in the printer.
I ripped out the black one for inspection - yes no chip - put in a 
fresch one - Whatever my scilles are - bending the pins right again 
and "distance them as new - the printer was dead - really 
dead "GENERAL FOULT" or somthing like that. Some minutes ago Epson 
called me - no warranty - I had "abused" the printer - this should 
not happen!
Also it has been for epson Service twice for "GENERAL FAULT" ...
Why???? I think it's because I use the 1280 drivers for that 1290 
using Pauls VM-curves - --> The second time it was in - Epson sevice 
called me and asked if I used the right drivers and I told them - "Of 
cause I have the latest from the internet at Epson....-reply "are You 
sure You piced them at the Brittish site" --- My answer 
was /smile/ "I don't know - what Internetaddress please?!.
Why did they ask that question? ...hmmm.... They could certainly see
something that I'm not awa´re of!

So - they did also remember me by those "odd" errors they had to deal 
with earlier - this added to the last thing that happend - is that 
I'll by another printer 1290 of cause if the reparation cost is what 
they said! Perhaps good for spareparts for the future - as I have the 
normaly have three 1290 going! (Dye, pigment color and quad)

Last but not least - I bought those inks (VM ) just before chrismas - 
they are not two years as stated by MIS. Order was direct MIS USA!

Shake your bottles every week - long enough!

Is your blacks going odd or the "stepwedge" don't show up quite
all right - it's time for an overhoule. 

Questions to ask yourself - if there is thick "colorgrease in the 
tubes.....how does my sponges look like?

After seeing this I have lot's of questions...to ask you and myself.
dare I use the "pigment inks" - "dare I use the carbon particel inks"

Dare I buy from MIS or any other company - dispersion or colloid inks?

I don't think this is just a MIS thing - remeber the inks from CONE- 
I think their inks and dispersions are worse - and explans a lot of 
things to me - many many things!

If - how often shall I switch the cartriges, how often shall I take 
everything apart for an inspection and an overhule and clean things!
How often shall I shake my bottles? etc etc

Called MIS by phone - they first asked me if it was Cone - inks????
Then later I (Bob was not in coming tomorow morning - US time - but 
what US -time - I'm a Swede you know!)
Then I asked if they was aware of this - Answer - "They have had ONE 
custumer discribing the same thing as she could recall" - "don't know 
if the others have heard it!"

I told them 1/ Give instructions for how to handle dispersion inks
               (That is all pigmented inks corbon or color)
            2/ Helping us with 1290's curves (- 1280 is a miner part -
 the 1290 is the model number for most of the world as I recall)
Not only europe!!!
I asked if they would not do real businnes having more custumer by
that relativly simple thing - to earn money in the rest of the world 
and reminded her that the world is not US only! I hope she learnt 
that now /smile/

You may draw Your own conclussions I'm for certain drawing mine - 
I invested in three Epson 1290 for my digital darkroom - but just now 
I feel out of sorts - for sure - what shall I do - what shall WE do!


I did all my CFS's myself - I'm Very handy - and like to experiment.
I did four car renovations with cars from the thirties and up - and I 
learnt how to weld as well as paint and sew new seats for a car - and 
I have wone old car competisions for best renovation! Best .... etc
I a proud handy man!

I feel it's a major thing to discuss and take up with the deliverants!
I will - fore sure!!!!!!!

IT's SOMETHING WRONG HERE! 


Please NO answers like "MY epsy works fine!" There is nothing wrong!
This is another legue!
 
/Sorry for my Swinglish - Swedish - English that is!/

An very experienced 1290 CFS owner from summer 2001!
And I DID love it - having both qaud and exellent colorpics....
now hanging all over - not just at home - official places as well!


Civilengineer
Heavy Photamateur etc
Bo Wrangborg
Made in Sweden

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "sm7bxd" <sm7bxd@y...> 
wrote:
> Attension fellows, IT's SOMETHING WRONG HERE! 

  Bo, you need to watch the relative humidity in your print room. 
Keep it at 50% or higher and you shouldn't have any trouble or at 
least not as much trouble. The water in the inks evaporates out of 
the tubing leaving behind pigments and other non volitile materials. 
The "grease" you found was a mixture of glycerine and carbon. Dye 
based ink would do the same thing- it would just take a bit longer. 
You can try this yourself, as you are so handy, by taking some of 
that tubing and filling it with water. Clamp off both ends and let it 
sit around for a few weeks- you'll be surpised how quickly the water 
evaporates though the tubing. If you keep the humdity up it will 
drastically decrese the rate of evaporation.

Good Luck.
Jeff

Rhanks - if it that easy - then this must be know in industry.
Then
Solutions:
1/
I might be able to find tubes made by Nalgalene or some other
major deliverant that make polymere things that don't let air or 
anything through the plasics.
2/
Find something to coat those tubes with (fat - grease - anything that
is known to fix such things)that hinder this to happen!

For sure this is not anything about handy - it's finding a soltion to
the problem with this very dangerous tubes (if it's ONLY the tubes)
or find another tube-setup that doesn't allow for this things to 
happen

Thankyou for that answer - now it's time for me to get the smiles 
back and work for this solutions - now just statements - but I'm 
eager - how about the other deliverants of Continous flow princip -
What polymere  are they using - anyone that knows of that???

Please help - my hunt has begun!
Anyone in industry knowing the cure for this!

My chock has went no I'm eager searching - this is a rediculus 
problem.

I prosumed as an engineer that that was thought of - by using 
Nalgagen - polymer bottles - when the tubes expose FARE MORE SPECIFIC
AREA to air!/Yes I yell/ Crazy that is! Did that engineer have just 
simple brain transplant mede by polymeres used to make womens breast 
bigger-? I wonder if they evaporate as well?

Thanks - I didn't as I thought above that this was the case!
By the way - just ordered a replacement 1290 - there SHALL be three 
1290's in my constant envirnment!

Just now looking at my "Humimeter" it says 41 % Relative humudity - 
and 23 degress celsius.

But as long as it isn't 100% the tubes will stll evaporate! That's
a fact! And even over at that point - it might evaporate if the 
solution is not pure water! It's like osmosis known from physics!
"two different medias......etc etc ..with a semipermabel wall -- 
tries to blend until finished....)  


Regards 



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "iwasnvrhere" 
<iwasnvrhere@y...> wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "sm7bxd" <sm7bxd@y...> 
> wrote:
> > Attension fellows, IT's SOMETHING WRONG HERE! 
> 
>   Bo, you need to watch the relative humidity in your print room. 
> Keep it at 50% or higher and you shouldn't have any trouble or at 
> least not as much trouble. The water in the inks evaporates out of 
> the tubing leaving behind pigments and other non volitile 
materials. 
> The "grease" you found was a mixture of glycerine and carbon. Dye 
> based ink would do the same thing- it would just take a bit longer. 
> You can try this yourself, as you are so handy, by taking some of 
> that tubing and filling it with water. Clamp off both ends and let 
it 
> sit around for a few weeks- you'll be surpised how quickly the 
water 

> evaporates though the tubing. If you keep the humdity up it will 
> drastically decrese the rate of evaporation.
> 
> Good Luck.
> Jeff

Hi B/W -ers!

1/ We must find nonevaporatable tubes (Obvious for me!)
2/ Valves that are not a hole in the lid! (stoneage!)


I found this link to Nalgene:
http://nalgenelab.nalgenunc.com/products/catalog/category.asp?
catId=173

Wich tube is Soft enought, no evaporationproof?? - also look at the 
valves
- those ventholes has irritades me long by now - just a hole into the 
air- it must be some sort of ball-valve two-ways to hinder 
evapuration even when weather is changing and gives different 
airpressures...

Hunt goes on - I'm now certain that I will find the "things"
Outer Diam 1/8 inner 1/16 (Ah You Americans get used to proper
measuring - inches was was common in sweden and Europe during your 
civil war - are you also building your Spaceships in inches???? Then 
I'm surprised!)/smile/

It seems to me that silicone coated tubes are fit - if not connected 
in three or five - we can do that ourseves - tape or silicone?

Anyone awere of this stuff?

Or I'll must call expensive "long long" phonecalls - Living near by?


Regards
Bo Wrangborg

Hej Bo,

You have said that you made your own CFS... what make of tubes did you
use... did you buy a kit from MIS and make it yourself, or make it from
parts you found in Sweden? Also, you note that you have just have holes open
to the air in your bottles! I think this is a bad thing, and who knows - it
may have been part of your problem - if solvent evaporates who knows what
will be left but pigments stacked up on each other (a nasty gunk indeed).
You need to make a breather line for your bottles so that air can get in,
but evaporation is limited from the bottles.

I am sorry to hear about your problems, and hope that you manage to get them
resolved.

Nij




> -----Original Message-----
> From: sm7bxd [mailto:sm7bxd@...]
> Sent: 14 May 2002 21:42
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: RED ALERT - Attension - MIS Black!
>
>
> Rhanks - if it that easy - then this must be know in industry.
> Then
> Solutions:
> 1/
> I might be able to find tubes made by Nalgalene or some other
> major deliverant that make polymere things that don't let air or
> anything through the plasics.
> 2/
> Find something to coat those tubes with (fat - grease - anything that
> is known to fix such things)that hinder this to happen!
>
> For sure this is not anything about handy - it's finding a soltion to
> the problem with this very dangerous tubes (if it's ONLY the tubes)
> or find another tube-setup that doesn't allow for this things to
> happen
>
<snip>

Nij,

no problems by that - I buy another 1290 - I can afford that./smile/
Cpmpared to my "Hassle-Blades" Minolta Multi pro etc etc it's a minor 
cost. 
It's expensive and it's fun - LET's have fun! 

I bought the tubes from MIS - they are cheap as other real stuff 
costs - I have also learnt that every system like this are using this 
tubeset - none of them have the more expensive ones.

For the wentholes - I have a simple but irriytating solution I have 
made plastic cones (Not Cones plastic /smile/) that I place in this 
holes when not in use - but they are not "automatic" - I can forget 
them.
Erlier I used a plastic bag with a damp piece of cloth to get 100% 
rel humidity taped it - and it works as well but look rediculous when 
custumers came for looking at my gear....aren't we some sort of 
crazy...but we photographers are as well some sort of "artists" ... 
and dont like that - ahhh plastic bags.hmm....

Have just made an investigation by friends (hospital engineer and 
designer for apperatures, also been at 
http://nalgenelab.nalgenunc.com/products/catalog/category.asp?
catId=173

The Nalgene place to have a look - it look promising.

Words to use here : The common tubes are permeable letting fluid out 
and avaporate AND absorbtic letting air in (It's a two way 
interference here) (I don't know air may corrogate some chemicals and 
gibving them other colors, changing the chemical formulas etc etc.


What I need now for RR (Rolls Roys) is what I have learnt are tubes 
made of "Tetrafluoroethelene" that is both absorbtion and 
permationrestistent. I now Nalgen have them - but are expensive - but 
I dont care!
However, are they elastic enought to give it an easy go or do I have 
to heat them to have the right bend and mobility?

They also do have selflocking connections - that could make it easy to
maintenace the tubes now and then!

It is to remember that the tubes has a far greater relative area to 
the air than the bottles - so for me it's obvious (also by my 
incedent) that this is of great importance to evaluate the systems.
Ok this was the first indikation with MIS "double black" that has a 
lot of carbonparticles in it - however in the long term every tube is 
affected and build up - to stiff grease like things - that can't be 
good at all. Investigated the other tubes as well - and they also 
have grease - but not that much! 

So when printing - are You happy wityh the blacks - if not I know 
where it's hidden./call me and I'll tell You - smile/

Du Pont have alo such tubes - but not on the web! And I'm certain 
that industri fellows can help me to further deliverants!   

I don't care if the tubes are single - it's easy to connect them with
some sort of silicone every 5 cm or so or why not tape them with 
different colors - making it look like cobras /smile/ - have a 
suggestion for that one?

The hunt goes on!

Help appreciated! For sure!


Thanks Ninj!

Regards

Bo Wrangborg
Made in Sweden




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Nij" <nigel@m...> wrote:
> Hej Bo,
> 
> You have said that you made your own CFS... what make of tubes did 
you
> use... did you buy a kit from MIS and make it yourself, or make it 
from
> parts you found in Sweden? Also, you note that you have just have 
holes open
> to the air in your bottles! I think this is a bad thing, and who 
knows - it
> may have been part of your problem - if solvent evaporates who 
knows what
> will be left but pigments stacked up on each other (a nasty gunk 
indeed).
> You need to make a breather line for your bottles so that air can 
get in,
> but evaporation is limited from the bottles.
> 
> I am sorry to hear about your problems, and hope that you manage to 
get them
> resolved.
> 
> Nij
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: sm7bxd [mailto:sm7bxd@y...]
> > Sent: 14 May 2002 21:42
> > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
> > Subject: [Digital BW] Re: RED ALERT - Attension - MIS Black!
> >
> >
> > Rhanks - if it that easy - then this must be know in industry.
> > Then
> > Solutions:
> > 1/
> > I might be able to find tubes made by Nalgalene or some other
> > major deliverant that make polymere things that don't let air or
> > anything through the plasics.
> > 2/
> > Find something to coat those tubes with (fat - grease - anything 
that
> > is known to fix such things)that hinder this to happen!
> >
> > For sure this is not anything about handy - it's finding a 
soltion to
> > the problem with this very dangerous tubes (if it's ONLY the 
tubes)

> > or find another tube-setup that doesn't allow for this things to
> > happen
> >
> <snip>

Bo,

What's wrong with what you probably have already? Tygon vacuum tubing
R-3603???

http://www.tygon.com/new/europe/english/en_europe_index.html

Nij

> -----Original Message-----
> From: sm7bxd [mailto:sm7bxd@...]
> Sent: 15 May 2002 01:04
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: RED ALERT - Attension - MIS Black!
>
>
> Nij,
>
> no problems by that - I buy another 1290 - I can afford that./smile/
> Cpmpared to my "Hassle-Blades" Minolta Multi pro etc etc it's a minor
> cost.
> It's expensive and it's fun - LET's have fun!
>
> I bought the tubes from MIS - they are cheap as other real stuff
> costs - I have also learnt that every system like this are using this
> tubeset - none of them have the more expensive ones.
>
> For the wentholes - I have a simple but irriytating solution I have
> made plastic cones (Not Cones plastic /smile/) that I place in this
> holes when not in use - but they are not "automatic" - I can forget
> them.
> Erlier I used a plastic bag with a damp piece of cloth to get 100%
> rel humidity taped it - and it works as well but look rediculous when
> custumers came for looking at my gear....aren't we some sort of
> crazy...but we photographers are as well some sort of "artists" ...
> and dont like that - ahhh plastic bags.hmm....
>
> Have just made an investigation by friends (hospital engineer and
> designer for apperatures, also been at
> http://nalgenelab.nalgenunc.com/products/catalog/category.asp?
> catId=173
>
> The Nalgene place to have a look - it look promising.
>
> Words to use here : The common tubes are permeable letting fluid out
> and avaporate AND absorbtic letting air in (It's a two way
> interference here) (I don't know air may corrogate some chemicals and
> gibving them other colors, changing the chemical formulas etc etc.
>
>
> What I need now for RR (Rolls Roys) is what I have learnt are tubes
> made of "Tetrafluoroethelene" that is both absorbtion and
> permationrestistent. I now Nalgen have them - but are expensive - but
> I dont care!
> However, are they elastic enought to give it an easy go or do I have
> to heat them to have the right bend and mobility?
>
> They also do have selflocking connections - that could make it easy to
> maintenace the tubes now and then!
>
> It is to remember that the tubes has a far greater relative area to
> the air than the bottles - so for me it's obvious (also by my
> incedent) that this is of great importance to evaluate the systems.
> Ok this was the first indikation with MIS "double black" that has a
> lot of carbonparticles in it - however in the long term every tube is
> affected and build up - to stiff grease like things - that can't be
> good at all. Investigated the other tubes as well - and they also
> have grease - but not that much!
>
> So when printing - are You happy wityh the blacks - if not I know
> where it's hidden./call me and I'll tell You - smile/
>
> Du Pont have alo such tubes - but not on the web! And I'm certain
> that industri fellows can help me to further deliverants!
>
> I don't care if the tubes are single - it's easy to connect them with
> some sort of silicone every 5 cm or so or why not tape them with
> different colors - making it look like cobras /smile/ - have a
> suggestion for that one?
>
> The hunt goes on!
>
> Help appreciated! For sure!
>
>
> Thanks Ninj!
>
> Regards
>
> Bo Wrangborg
> Made in Sweden
>

Nij,

am I misslead - don't you think it's the tubes?

Is that one for certain "absorbtion and permationresistent" as it 
must.

The PDF sais it has waterabsorbion - that indicates that it's not
permationrsitant - nothing about airabsorbtion - and not that it's 
made of "tetrafluoroethelen" - I have a feeling this is a cheap one!
The headline also states it's a "siliconebased" - that's the worst 
ones as I learnt from the friend "hospital engineer/designer"!
Avoid those Silicone ABSORBS water etc - You know that as well as I 
do,
when placing siliconbased "leakstopers" it hardens by the water in 
the air! Voila!!!

Remember our tubes shall last for at least a year or more and DO it's 
thing also protecting the ink - things used for temporary pumsetups 
in hospitals are often switched out for many a reason - then the 
requiremensts I stated earlier are not fullfilled!
 
But if that's the one - thanks - now I know that I have to look 
elseware. That information was very important for me. I mean it Nij - 
thanks again! Now I don't have to spend time on what I have.

"What's wrong" - I have already described to You Nij!

There is a reason - I'll/We'll find it!
I think this is at least one of the answers!

Nij - You helped me!

Regards
Bo Wrangborg
Sweden


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Nij" <nigel@m...> wrote:
> Bo,
> 
> What's wrong with what you probably have already? Tygon vacuum 
tubing
> R-3603???
> 
> http://www.tygon.com/new/europe/english/en_europe_index.html
> 
> Nij
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: sm7bxd [mailto:sm7bxd@y...]
> > Sent: 15 May 2002 01:04
> > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
> > Subject: [Digital BW] Re: RED ALERT - Attension - MIS Black!
> >
> >
> > Nij,
> >
> > no problems by that - I buy another 1290 - I can afford 
that./smile/
> > Cpmpared to my "Hassle-Blades" Minolta Multi pro etc etc it's a 
minor
> > cost.
> > It's expensive and it's fun - LET's have fun!
> >
> > I bought the tubes from MIS - they are cheap as other real stuff
> > costs - I have also learnt that every system like this are using 
this
> > tubeset - none of them have the more expensive ones.
> >
> > For the wentholes - I have a simple but irriytating solution I 
have
> > made plastic cones (Not Cones plastic /smile/) that I place in 
this
> > holes when not in use - but they are not "automatic" - I can 
forget
> > them.
> > Erlier I used a plastic bag with a damp piece of cloth to get 100%
> > rel humidity taped it - and it works as well but look rediculous 
when
> > custumers came for looking at my gear....aren't we some sort of
> > crazy...but we photographers are as well some sort 
of "artists" ...
> > and dont like that - ahhh plastic bags.hmm....
> >
> > Have just made an investigation by friends (hospital engineer and
> > designer for apperatures, also been at
> > http://nalgenelab.nalgenunc.com/products/catalog/category.asp?
> > catId=173
> >
> > The Nalgene place to have a look - it look promising.
> >
> > Words to use here : The common tubes are permeable letting fluid 
out
> > and avaporate AND absorbtic letting air in (It's a two way
> > interference here) (I don't know air may corrogate some chemicals 
and
> > gibving them other colors, changing the chemical formulas etc etc.
> >
> >
> > What I need now for RR (Rolls Roys) is what I have learnt are 
tubes
> > made of "Tetrafluoroethelene" that is both absorbtion and
> > permationrestistent. I now Nalgen have them - but are expensive - 
but
> > I dont care!
> > However, are they elastic enought to give it an easy go or do I 
have
> > to heat them to have the right bend and mobility?
> >
> > They also do have selflocking connections - that could make it 
easy to
> > maintenace the tubes now and then!
> >
> > It is to remember that the tubes has a far greater relative area 
to
> > the air than the bottles - so for me it's obvious (also by my
> > incedent) that this is of great importance to evaluate the 
systems.
> > Ok this was the first indikation with MIS "double black" that has 
a
> > lot of carbonparticles in it - however in the long term every 
tube is
> > affected and build up - to stiff grease like things - that can't 
be
> > good at all. Investigated the other tubes as well - and they also
> > have grease - but not that much!
> >
> > So when printing - are You happy wityh the blacks - if not I know
> > where it's hidden./call me and I'll tell You - smile/
> >
> > Du Pont have alo such tubes - but not on the web! And I'm certain
> > that industri fellows can help me to further deliverants!
> >
> > I don't care if the tubes are single - it's easy to connect them 
with

> > some sort of silicone every 5 cm or so or why not tape them with
> > different colors - making it look like cobras /smile/ - have a
> > suggestion for that one?
> >
> > The hunt goes on!
> >
> > Help appreciated! For sure!
> >
> >
> > Thanks Ninj!
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Bo Wrangborg
> > Made in Sweden
> >

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "sm7bxd" <sm7bxd@y...> 
wrote:
> Nij,
> 
> am I misslead - don't you think it's the tubes? 
> Is that one for certain "absorbtion and permationresistent" as it 
> must.
> 
  Bo, you won't be able to use teflon (poly TEtraFLuoroethylene) for 
your tubing. It is way to rigid. It's durometer hardness is usually 
around 70. You're going to need tubing that's Shore A 55 or less. I'm 
still looking for a good material myself or I would recommend one for 
you. I'm testing some new materials soon and if I find a good one 
I'll let you know.

Jeff

Thanks,

Hi - I have been investigating all night -

look at this "Chemfluor® FEP Tubing"  it's 55 Shore soft I was 
thinking of that when doing this "job" - the same as the "old bad 
ones"! The same Shore softness as the ones we have - Nij said it was
"Tygon® Vacuum Tubing Formulation R-3603" and it has also 55 Shore. 

Bingo!

Have the look here:

http://www.tygon.com/new/europe/english/en_europe_index.html

Scroll this side until you find it! It has as I see it everything
I'm looking for - perhaps I'll call England or France tomorrow (hmmm. 
today...that is)

I want this solved - give a damn what it costs - it is just some 
tubes of quality I want! That can't be a fortune!
Maybee the fright is higher...not unusal bying smal no nonce things!


For now I think it is what I'm looking for - shall also talk to my 
friens "hospitalengineer/designer" about it - It's exacly how he 
described what to look for. And it has the same "softness" as the 
ones that we use now! But that's not all - perhaps som inovation is 
to be done - they don't give the diameters on the web - however - 
with some fittings that shall be of no problems.

I was thinking of some selfclosing connections I found anyway - to 
ease maintenance and cleaning! They are made in a way that most small
tubes fit and also if not the exact dimension is found (it's 
european) and are certainly made in the metric system) they may also 
help to connect to the cartriges - using the "old bad" tube to 
connect to the new "real ones". The selfclosing connection is conic 
in bothe directions and you just cut a bit of the cone to meke them 
perfect!

That's it!

Two -three hours sleep now - and then on it again calling England or 
France and have a talk!

They must have resellers in Scandinavia as well!

Problems - hard (somtimes amusing) work - sulution!
Most of anything is out there - the industri must run - we benefit 
that!

Throw out old bad cheap things that don't cost to begin with!

Still I'm a bit upset - seeing what you can get - but an eloge to Nij,
if he hadn't told me what "sh..t" that we used - I would have to do 
one more day of work to find out!
Thanks again NIJ!
Thanks again Jeff!

This is how discussiongroups schould work!


Non plus Ultra!

Here You fellows soon!

Regards

Bo Wrangborg
Made in Sweden



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "iwasnvrhere" 
<iwasnvrhere@y...> wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "sm7bxd" <sm7bxd@y...> 
> wrote:
> > Nij,
> > 
> > am I misslead - don't you think it's the tubes? 
> > Is that one for certain "absorbtion and permationresistent" as it 
> > must.
> > 
>   Bo, you won't be able to use teflon (poly TEtraFLuoroethylene) 
for 
> your tubing. It is way to rigid. It's durometer hardness is usually 
> around 70. You're going to need tubing that's Shore A 55 or less. 
I'm 
> still looking for a good material myself or I would recommend one 
for 

> you. I'm testing some new materials soon and if I find a good one 
> I'll let you know.
> 
> Jeff

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "sm7bxd" <sm7bxd@y...> 
wrote:
> Thanks,
> > Hi - I have been investigating all night -
> > look at this "Chemfluor® FEP Tubing"  it's 55 Shore soft I was 
> thinking of that when doing this "job" - the same as the "old bad 
> ones"! The same Shore softness as the ones we have - Nij said it was
> "Tygon® Vacuum Tubing Formulation R-3603" and it has also 55 Shore. 
> 
> Looks like a winner, I think I'll try it out too. 

Jeff

Hi Bo,

I just told you what is on the system I use and sell. However, it is for MIS
to answer if that is the tubing they use (i.e. that you have on your
system).

However, I would dispute with you that it (the tygon tubing) is 'sh..t'! I
follow your logic on the possible loss of liquid from the ink-lines, but I
disagree... and whether or not you have that actual make/model of tubing is
not necessarily true by default... indeed, if it is not written on the
tubes... it possibly is not.

I understand that you probably have to change the tubes yourself anyway,
given that yours are greased up, but I would disagree that the size of the
tube is not important. This is my gut feeling, I do not have scientific
knowledge. But, too thin, and I think you will have problems due to
resistance and limited ink flow. Too thick, and possible problems due to
loss of any kind of capillary action and too much weight of ink for the
print head to pull ink (or the support bar to hold, or the print head to
shift back and forth, who knows?).

It is not helpful to scare people when the absolute majority of users are
working fine with their CIS / CFS / whatever with what they have... and have
in many cases been running for a long time.

Should your post and your knowledge be ignored? No. But to vent your anger
at one product part because you have had a problem _in_ it is not
necessarily correct. Even though you have some apparently scientific
evidence as to why it might be a problem, it does not make it _the_
problem... just 'maybe'... or perhaps a number of problems came together to
cause your problem!

What are MIS doing to help you?

I wish you well in resolving your problems!

best regards,
nij

Nigel Rheam
MWORDS Limited   www.mwords.co.uk   Digital Fine Art

> -----Original Message-----
> From: sm7bxd [mailto:sm7bxd@...]
> Sent: 15 May 2002 05:31
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: RED ALERT - Attension - MIS Black!
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Hi - I have been investigating all night -
>
> look at this "Chemfluor\ufffd FEP Tubing"  it's 55 Shore soft I was
> thinking of that when doing this "job" - the same as the "old bad
> ones"! The same Shore softness as the ones we have - Nij said it was
> "Tygon\ufffd Vacuum Tubing Formulation R-3603" and it has also 55 Shore.
>
> Bingo!
>
> Have the look here:
>
> http://www.tygon.com/new/europe/english/en_europe_index.html
>
> Scroll this side until you find it! It has as I see it everything
> I'm looking for - perhaps I'll call England or France tomorrow (hmmm.
> today...that is)
>
> I want this solved - give a damn what it costs - it is just some
> tubes of quality I want! That can't be a fortune!
> Maybee the fright is higher...not unusal bying smal no nonce things!
>
>
> For now I think it is what I'm looking for - shall also talk to my
> friens "hospitalengineer/designer" about it - It's exacly how he
> described what to look for. And it has the same "softness" as the
> ones that we use now! But that's not all - perhaps som inovation is
> to be done - they don't give the diameters on the web - however -
> with some fittings that shall be of no problems.
>
> I was thinking of some selfclosing connections I found anyway - to
> ease maintenance and cleaning! They are made in a way that most small
> tubes fit and also if not the exact dimension is found (it's
> european) and are certainly made in the metric system) they may also
> help to connect to the cartriges - using the "old bad" tube to
> connect to the new "real ones". The selfclosing connection is conic
> in bothe directions and you just cut a bit of the cone to meke them
> perfect!
>
> That's it!
>
> Two -three hours sleep now - and then on it again calling England or
> France and have a talk!
>
> They must have resellers in Scandinavia as well!
>
> Problems - hard (somtimes amusing) work - sulution!
> Most of anything is out there - the industri must run - we benefit
> that!
>
> Throw out old bad cheap things that don't cost to begin with!
>
> Still I'm a bit upset - seeing what you can get - but an eloge to Nij,
> if he hadn't told me what "sh..t" that we used - I would have to do
> one more day of work to find out!
> Thanks again NIJ!
> Thanks again Jeff!
>
> This is how discussiongroups schould work!
>
>
> Non plus Ultra!
>
> Here You fellows soon!
>
> Regards
>
> Bo Wrangborg
> Made in Sweden

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "sm7bxd" <sm7bxd@y...> 
wrote:

First, noone has yet asked: your bottles are from December, but how 
old was the CFS? Were you REFILLING the bottles with new ones in 
December, and thus winding up with perhaps a cm or two of older ink 
left in bottles and CFS carts when you put in ink from December? This 
would mix in new ink with old ink. I've been discovering that for me 
it is safe if I discard the ink bottles after six months. I am using 
carts right now, and plan to build my own CIS/CFS from the best parts 
from the systems in July when some new chip options come out.

You could just discard CFS after six months or one set of bottles, 
whichever is longer.

The humidity is very low here in the winter (20-30%RH), and the air 
pressure is only 80% of sea level (Colorado Rockies). I've had 
tremendous problems with clogging/ DSS with Cone and  with clogging 
only with MIS inks. I put a humidifier in room equiped with a UV light 
(germ free) and try to keep humidity at about 38-45%RH. If I go below 
35%RH I ALWAYS have problems. I run two quick draft purge prints at 
360 dpi a day. With springtime and humidities of about 40% more often 
than not, I am getting less clogs now, and the ink never sits in the 
printhead for long to sludge up. 

NEVER, ever, install a cart without a chip. You destroy printer almost 
a certainty. I use a very small pointed soldering iron to melt the 
nubbins onto the chip but am reconsidering using glue to avoid excess 
heat which may upset the chip.




> 
> For the wentholes - I have a simple but irriytating solution I have 
> made plastic cones (Not Cones plastic /smile/) that I place in this 
> holes when not in use - but they are not "automatic" - I can forget 
> them.


So this doesn't create a vacuum at the printhead when printer is off- 
that is, if the printhead is trying to get rid of an air bubble and 
you plug the vent hole- the air bubble may not disperse? I guess if 
the tubing is permeable it may not matter...

> Erlier I used a plastic bag with a damp piece of cloth to get 100% 
> rel humidity taped it - and it works as well

Over the bottles or the whole printer? If the whole printer, I would 
be worried about condensation forming on electronic connectors and 
circuit boards...


 
> Words to use here : The common tubes are permeable letting fluid out 
> and avaporate AND absorbtic letting air in (It's a two way 
> interference here) (I don't know air may corrogate some chemicals 
and 
> gibving them other colors, changing the chemical formulas etc etc.
> 
>


Yes, but make sure whatever you replace them with has the same 
physical properties wrt flexibility, weight, no oily residue on 
outside of tubing or inside, ability to be glued etc. Remember this is 
an "engineered" system- it also has to work slapping about back and 
forth in the printer bed. think of all the requirements for all that 
the tubing comes in contact with.

  
> What I need now for RR (Rolls Roys) is what I have learnt are tubes 
> made of "Tetrafluoroethelene"

Why, this is "Teflon"!! You won't be able to glue it very easily, if 
at all...

 that is both absorbtion and 
> permationrestistent. I now Nalgen have them - but are expensive - 
but 
> I dont care!

Teflon would be expensive...

> However, are they elastic enought to give it an easy go or do I have 
> to heat them to have the right bend and mobility?

Been a long time since I used teflon tubing, don't remember. I want to 
say it is more rigid than what is used now by a signifigant amount, 
but don't hold me to it.

> 
> They also do have selflocking connections - that could make it easy 
to
> maintenace the tubes now and then!


We-Ink has already implemented such a solution, and even offer a kit 
to add onto other CIS/CFS units.

> 
> It is to remember that the tubes has a far greater relative area to 
> the air than the bottles - so for me it's obvious (also by my 
> incedent) that this is of great importance to evaluate the systems.
> Ok this was the first indikation with MIS "double black" that has a 
> lot of carbonparticles in it - however in the long term every tube 
is 
> affected and build up - to stiff grease like things - that can't be 
> good at all. Investigated the other tubes as well - and they also 
> have grease - but not that much!


Okay, how about this-

make a CIS/CFS for the color cart only! Use vacuum fill virgin carts 
for the K cart. It is much cheaper to vacuum fill the k cart- and 
easier.

  
> 
> So when printing - are You happy wityh the blacks - if not I know 
> where it's hidden./call me and I'll tell You - smile/
> 
> Du Pont have alo such tubes - but not on the web! And I'm certain 
> that industri fellows can help me to further deliverants!   
> 
> I don't care if the tubes are single - it's easy to connect them 
with
> some sort of silicone every 5 cm or so

And let the assemblage flop to and fro in the printer bed? How long 
before it falls apart? That's called fatigue cycling. Actually, that's 
a real question not a sarcastic one- I just don't know how it would 
work- you'd have to watch it closely for awhile. And RTV Silicone 
won't stick to all surfaces- especaially teflon!

Good luck, if you come up with something I'll try it.
Jim H.


 or why not tape them with 
> different colors - making it look like cobras /smile/ - have a 
> suggestion for that one?
> 
> The hunt goes on!
> 
> Help appreciated! For sure!
> 
> 
> Thanks Ninj!
> 
> Regards
> 
> Bo Wrangborg
> Made in Sweden
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Nij" <nigel@m...> wrote:
> > Hej Bo,
> > 
> > You have said that you made your own CFS... what make of tubes did 
> you
> > use... did you buy a kit from MIS and make it yourself, or make it 
> from
> > parts you found in Sweden? Also, you note that you have just have 
> holes open
> > to the air in your bottles! I think this is a bad thing, and who 
> knows - it
> > may have been part of your problem - if solvent evaporates who 
> knows what
> > will be left but pigments stacked up on each other (a nasty gunk 
> indeed).
> > You need to make a breather line for your bottles so that air can 
> get in,
> > but evaporation is limited from the bottles.
> > 
> > I am sorry to hear about your problems, and hope that you manage 
to 

> get them
> > resolved.
> > 
> > Nij
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: sm7bxd [mailto:sm7bxd@y...]
> > > Sent: 14 May 2002 21:42
> > > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
> > > Subject: [Digital BW] Re: RED ALERT - Attension - MIS Black!
> > >
> > >
> > > Rhanks - if it that easy - then this must be know in industry.
> > > Then
> > > Solutions:
> > > 1/
> > > I might be able to find tubes made by Nalgalene or some other
> > > major deliverant that make polymere things that don't let air or
> > > anything through the plasics.
> > > 2/
> > > Find something to coat those tubes with (fat - grease - anything 
> that
> > > is known to fix such things)that hinder this to happen!
> > >
> > > For sure this is not anything about handy - it's finding a 
> soltion to
> > > the problem with this very dangerous tubes (if it's ONLY the 
> tubes)
> > > or find another tube-setup that doesn't allow for this things to
> > > happen
> > >
> > <snip>

Nij,

I see You sell one of this systems. I didn't know - how did you dare 
to tell what tubes that was used on "your" selling system - I'm glad 
you did but also astonished.... However you gave me the track and 
helped me. 

Let solve the problem.

There is no problems for You as I can see - It's my fault in a way - 
right - being a baby using my three 1290's.

What did I do wrong - I as an engineer built them - and found it a 
very simple no nonce construction - it's the idea that is brilliant.
It is some bottles, some tubes and a connection to the carts. 
Somthing to hold it toghther - there is no sort of religion in that.
By plugging the carts you get a slight underpressure in the carts 
that soakes the "ink" into the carts - that's it , a splended idea - 
with a very simple solution.

What can go wrong if everything works "mechanicly" - just one thing -
the choice of material for that construction - nothing else.

The other things that can go wrong - I know them all - I did some of 
them to test - and not to test - Never touch a cartrige when placed 
in the printer - those cheap carts without popetvalves naturaly soaks 
air if lifted as there is an underpressure in them.
Those carts are bad - compared to Epsons original with popetvalves as 
well with a screenfilter. By the way MIS has a screenfilter in it's 
carts - that's OK - but still not as good as epsons Original 
cartriges. I take it for granted that NIJ's carts has that 
screenfilter as well - I don't no or care! Mine has it anyway!
I think this screenfilters are important as if we got "grease" into 
the cartrige as well - that must be a must!

So in the end about the systems - they are like twins but have as 
twins slightly different approach - almost not to se looking at it 
technicaly!

Then - we are here again - what's left - yes the choice of material 
for the parts.
As allready stated I have been in contact with Saint-Gobain - and 
their engineers - and we talk the same languge since I'm an 
Civilengineer myself among other things.

We are now testing other tubes - the delivered tube are not suited as 
a good choice! That's it.

We are also talking prices - and I might help those that belive in my 
investigation - and my experinces on my one of my systems.

Remember that this CAN happen even to a dye printer - as when 
glycerol is emtyied from whater it's like grease - this is the case 
if you seldom use the printer - and the tubes are exposed with the 
same ink to air then you use it again - but the "glycerolgrease" is 
still there and if you wait some time untiln you use the printer 
again - the glyserol will buikd up further. With dispersionink (qaud, 
or pigment it's worse - her also the pigment settles)
This grease is then exposed to air by absorbtion - because of the bad 
tubes - and make it further worse - and might als affect the density 
of inks - it's characteristic by oxidating etc etc)

The tubes I'm getting has either a Fluorethylene coating in it or is 
made of tetrafluoroethylene-polymere.

Ther will certainly be many tryings before we get one with the right 
Shore hardnes and the right flexabilitu to run smouth!

If not this company can do it there are others to grab - there are 
plenty of factories and companies doing this tubes for industry and 
hospitaluse. We will find a "RR" I think!   

My advice - go on buying - change the tubes when they are found!

MIS or NIJ's - for me that's twins they are just lookalikes.
Ihad bought the chepest - that also can deliver lots of inks and 
solutions. It's up to You though!

So let's come to the conclusion

OK: Belive Nij - there is No problems - buy his system it's 
exellent , marvoulus - splended.

Or buy any system and change tubes when on market or recomended!

I have used the whole day speaking and asking, learning about the 
tubes they offer - the tubes Nij gave me is for the purpose "sh..t".
They agree It has both absorbtion of air (inwards) and permation 
(outwords) - the permation make the fluid evaporate when it hits the 
surface of the tube, the absorbtion is oxidating (or can oxidate) 
things inside the tube. That's facts - call TYGON (That is Saint-
Gobain
a major company in this business) After several talks and E-mails it 
clear for me - that they as well as for me that tubes are 
not "really" proper for it purpose "regarding the time of use and the 
low flow of fluids in it - add to that - they question the fluids 
chemical mixture - "And We would never sugest that tube for that 
purpose" end qoute)

Now I'm getting some samples from them that has all the suggested and 
intellectually "right" ones to test. They don't absorb air and they 
don't permatate. It's so simple when you study it Nij. 
The tubes will cost some dollars more of cause - but I had been glad 
to pay those dollars from the beginning - it's not much - for them 
this tubes are small and the dollars we talk about is unsignificant
regarding the total sum for such a system.

The one chosed on your system is one of the cheapest.
I suppose that's the same with MIS - but I can not talk for them - I 
have still not got their information.
And sending mail to them is a lottery! You must call them - for sure 
they answer! That's good!

Do you really think I do this for scaring people! Not at all!
Its an alert for two things:
1/The tubes are not suited for the application.
2/It might explane some odd things that has happened - and there was 
no answers for many of them - perhaps here are a lot of answers.

That's it Nij and I'm sorry that this was so long!

I'm so tired now that I don't even will correct my errors here.
Please remember I'm not a english/US man 

I'm made in Sweden

By the way - buy Nij's system - I have seen that he tells it's 
superior to anything reading all inlays from You Nij. /smile/

None of them are best - all the systems suffer from bad quality 
tubing!

And I'm sorry if Nij is right - If I scared you all - that's not good 
for business/smile/!

Best Regards
Bo Wrangborg

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Nij" <nigel@m...> wrote:
> Hi Bo,
> 
> I just told you what is on the system I use and sell. However, it 
is for MIS
> to answer if that is the tubing they use (i.e. that you have on your
> system).
> 
> However, I would dispute with you that it (the tygon tubing) 
is 'sh..t'! I
> follow your logic on the possible loss of liquid from the ink-
lines, but I
> disagree... and whether or not you have that actual make/model of 
tubing is
> not necessarily true by default... indeed, if it is not written on 
the
> tubes... it possibly is not.
> 
> I understand that you probably have to change the tubes yourself 
anyway,
> given that yours are greased up, but I would disagree that the size 
of the
> tube is not important. This is my gut feeling, I do not have 
scientific
> knowledge. But, too thin, and I think you will have problems due to
> resistance and limited ink flow. Too thick, and possible problems 
due to
> loss of any kind of capillary action and too much weight of ink for 
the
> print head to pull ink (or the support bar to hold, or the print 
head to
> shift back and forth, who knows?).
> 
> It is not helpful to scare people when the absolute majority of 
users are
> working fine with their CIS / CFS / whatever with what they have... 
and have
> in many cases been running for a long time.
> 
> Should your post and your knowledge be ignored? No. But to vent 
your anger
> at one product part because you have had a problem _in_ it is not
> necessarily correct. Even though you have some apparently scientific
> evidence as to why it might be a problem, it does not make it _the_
> problem... just 'maybe'... or perhaps a number of problems came 
together to
> cause your problem!
> 
> What are MIS doing to help you?
> 
> I wish you well in resolving your problems!
> 
> best regards,
> nij
> 
> Nigel Rheam
> MWORDS Limited   www.mwords.co.uk   Digital Fine Art
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: sm7bxd [mailto:sm7bxd@y...]
> > Sent: 15 May 2002 05:31
> > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
> > Subject: [Digital BW] Re: RED ALERT - Attension - MIS Black!
> >
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Hi - I have been investigating all night -
> >
> > look at this "Chemfluor® FEP Tubing"  it's 55 Shore soft I was
> > thinking of that when doing this "job" - the same as the "old bad
> > ones"! The same Shore softness as the ones we have - Nij said it 
was
> > "Tygon® Vacuum Tubing Formulation R-3603" and it has also 55 
Shore.
> >
> > Bingo!
> >
> > Have the look here:
> >
> > http://www.tygon.com/new/europe/english/en_europe_index.html
> >
> > Scroll this side until you find it! It has as I see it everything
> > I'm looking for - perhaps I'll call England or France tomorrow 
(hmmm.
> > today...that is)
> >
> > I want this solved - give a damn what it costs - it is just some
> > tubes of quality I want! That can't be a fortune!
> > Maybee the fright is higher...not unusal bying smal no nonce 
things!
> >
> >
> > For now I think it is what I'm looking for - shall also talk to my
> > friens "hospitalengineer/designer" about it - It's exacly how he
> > described what to look for. And it has the same "softness" as the
> > ones that we use now! But that's not all - perhaps som inovation 
is
> > to be done - they don't give the diameters on the web - however -
> > with some fittings that shall be of no problems.
> >
> > I was thinking of some selfclosing connections I found anyway - to
> > ease maintenance and cleaning! They are made in a way that most 
small
> > tubes fit and also if not the exact dimension is found (it's
> > european) and are certainly made in the metric system) they may 
also
> > help to connect to the cartriges - using the "old bad" tube to
> > connect to the new "real ones". The selfclosing connection is 
conic
> > in bothe directions and you just cut a bit of the cone to meke 
them
> > perfect!
> >
> > That's it!
> >
> > Two -three hours sleep now - and then on it again calling England 
or
> > France and have a talk!
> >
> > They must have resellers in Scandinavia as well!
> >
> > Problems - hard (somtimes amusing) work - sulution!
> > Most of anything is out there - the industri must run - we benefit
> > that!
> >
> > Throw out old bad cheap things that don't cost to begin with!
> >
> > Still I'm a bit upset - seeing what you can get - but an eloge to 
Nij,
> > if he hadn't told me what "sh..t" that we used - I would have to 
do

> > one more day of work to find out!
> > Thanks again NIJ!
> > Thanks again Jeff!
> >
> > This is how discussiongroups schould work!
> >
> >
> > Non plus Ultra!
> >
> > Here You fellows soon!
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Bo Wrangborg
> > Made in Sweden

This is an issue I've been a bit concerned with for a while.  Would other MIS 
VM black ink users care to comment on this because I just put this ink into 
my 9000 and I'd like to know the 1-2 year effects.  I can still change to 
Generations 3 for added safety if this black is a specific problem.  I hope 
it is just an issue with your unique setup Bo.

Thanks a lot!

Andrew Darlow

Photography, Digital Print Consulting and Custom Editions
Andrew Darlow Images International, NYC - www.andydarlow.com
Author: Inkjet Tip of the Month Club (newsletter) 
To subscribe, send e-mail to: Inkjettips-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

Shall I answer,

this was not a very encouraging letter - can You do the thing for me,
I'll be happy! But as You don't have a CFS/CIS yet I think I can give 
you some advices after building three of them - mostly MIS parts and 
tools.
Piece of a cake if you don't have the thumb in the middle of your 
hand - it will then take some hour longer.

Your Questions and Statement are so many - and thanks for all Your 
advices - I'll think of it when I build my fourth system.

Remember - I have had no problems until now!!!!!!
I look after my babies!

As you seems to know all the solutions I leave to the readers to 
judge! 

And - for your information - I just wrapped the bootles in a 
plasticbag and put a damp cloth in there - it was in the beginning - 
it looked awfull. I have never had the intension to wrap /smile/ my 
whole printer in a big black plastic sack and throw a damp towel into 
that sack - I'm not that sick - ........
And I did use the vacuum method for my pigmented inks - all of them..
It worked well and was clean....

Talking to me could You plese higher the
standard of discussion --- there is a little problem here!

And all Your woories - take it easy - I have it all in mind.
It will not be easy to find the "RR" tubes - But for sure I shall 
have them! I have started looking and have contact with Saint-Gobain -
The whole day went for that!

AND yes I repeat again - I ruined one of my 1290's by putting an 
black cartrige in my Quad 1290 - I took the ship of it for a new set 
of CDF/CIS carts - but I have already ordered a new one I'll have it 
next week - I can afford it - but remember - I was very tired after 
looking for the error "NO BLACK INK AT ALL"! And was angry finding my 
black tube full of grease - at the moment I was black up to my elbows-
---- now repeated again ----are you happy now my friend!/smile/
I'm rather human you know and it's on my account! My pleasure!


You could of cause not do such a stupid thing!


Best Regards to you all

Bo Wrangborg
Made in Sweden


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "jimhayes361" 
<jimhayes@j...> wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "sm7bxd" <sm7bxd@y...> 
> wrote:
> 
> First, noone has yet asked: your bottles are from December, but how 
> old was the CFS? Were you REFILLING the bottles with new ones in 
> December, and thus winding up with perhaps a cm or two of older ink 
> left in bottles and CFS carts when you put in ink from December? 
This 
> would mix in new ink with old ink. I've been discovering that for 
me 
> it is safe if I discard the ink bottles after six months. I am 
using 
> carts right now, and plan to build my own CIS/CFS from the best 
parts 
> from the systems in July when some new chip options come out.
> 
> You could just discard CFS after six months or one set of bottles, 
> whichever is longer.
> 
> The humidity is very low here in the winter (20-30%RH), and the air 
> pressure is only 80% of sea level (Colorado Rockies). I've had 
> tremendous problems with clogging/ DSS with Cone and  with clogging 
> only with MIS inks. I put a humidifier in room equiped with a UV 
light 
> (germ free) and try to keep humidity at about 38-45%RH. If I go 
below 
> 35%RH I ALWAYS have problems. I run two quick draft purge prints at 
> 360 dpi a day. With springtime and humidities of about 40% more 
often 
> than not, I am getting less clogs now, and the ink never sits in 
the 
> printhead for long to sludge up. 
> 
> NEVER, ever, install a cart without a chip. You destroy printer 
almost 
> a certainty. I use a very small pointed soldering iron to melt the 
> nubbins onto the chip but am reconsidering using glue to avoid 
excess 
> heat which may upset the chip.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > 
> > For the wentholes - I have a simple but irriytating solution I 
have 
> > made plastic cones (Not Cones plastic /smile/) that I place in 
this 
> > holes when not in use - but they are not "automatic" - I can 
forget 
> > them.
> 
> 
> So this doesn't create a vacuum at the printhead when printer is 
off- 
> that is, if the printhead is trying to get rid of an air bubble and 
> you plug the vent hole- the air bubble may not disperse? I guess if 
> the tubing is permeable it may not matter...
> 
> > Erlier I used a plastic bag with a damp piece of cloth to get 
100% 
> > rel humidity taped it - and it works as well
> 
> Over the bottles or the whole printer? If the whole printer, I 
would 
> be worried about condensation forming on electronic connectors and 
> circuit boards...
> 
> 
>  
> > Words to use here : The common tubes are permeable letting fluid 
out 
> > and avaporate AND absorbtic letting air in (It's a two way 
> > interference here) (I don't know air may corrogate some chemicals 
> and 
> > gibving them other colors, changing the chemical formulas etc etc.
> > 
> >
> 
> 
> Yes, but make sure whatever you replace them with has the same 
> physical properties wrt flexibility, weight, no oily residue on 
> outside of tubing or inside, ability to be glued etc. Remember this 
is 
> an "engineered" system- it also has to work slapping about back and 
> forth in the printer bed. think of all the requirements for all 
that 
> the tubing comes in contact with.
> 
>   
> > What I need now for RR (Rolls Roys) is what I have learnt are 
tubes 
> > made of "Tetrafluoroethelene"
> 
> Why, this is "Teflon"!! You won't be able to glue it very easily, 
if 
> at all...
> 
>  that is both absorbtion and 
> > permationrestistent. I now Nalgen have them - but are expensive - 
> but 
> > I dont care!
> 
> Teflon would be expensive...
> 
> > However, are they elastic enought to give it an easy go or do I 
have 
> > to heat them to have the right bend and mobility?
> 
> Been a long time since I used teflon tubing, don't remember. I want 
to 
> say it is more rigid than what is used now by a signifigant amount, 
> but don't hold me to it.
> 
> > 
> > They also do have selflocking connections - that could make it 
easy 
> to
> > maintenace the tubes now and then!
> 
> 
> We-Ink has already implemented such a solution, and even offer a 
kit 
> to add onto other CIS/CFS units.
> 
> > 
> > It is to remember that the tubes has a far greater relative area 
to 
> > the air than the bottles - so for me it's obvious (also by my 
> > incedent) that this is of great importance to evaluate the 
systems.
> > Ok this was the first indikation with MIS "double black" that has 
a 
> > lot of carbonparticles in it - however in the long term every 
tube 
> is 
> > affected and build up - to stiff grease like things - that can't 
be 
> > good at all. Investigated the other tubes as well - and they also 
> > have grease - but not that much!
> 
> 
> Okay, how about this-
> 
> make a CIS/CFS for the color cart only! Use vacuum fill virgin 
carts 
> for the K cart. It is much cheaper to vacuum fill the k cart- and 
> easier.
> 
>   
> > 
> > So when printing - are You happy wityh the blacks - if not I know 
> > where it's hidden./call me and I'll tell You - smile/
> > 
> > Du Pont have alo such tubes - but not on the web! And I'm certain 
> > that industri fellows can help me to further deliverants!   
> > 
> > I don't care if the tubes are single - it's easy to connect them 
> with
> > some sort of silicone every 5 cm or so
> 
> And let the assemblage flop to and fro in the printer bed? How long 
> before it falls apart? That's called fatigue cycling. Actually, 
that's 
> a real question not a sarcastic one- I just don't know how it would 
> work- you'd have to watch it closely for awhile. And RTV Silicone 
> won't stick to all surfaces- especaially teflon!
> 
> Good luck, if you come up with something I'll try it.
> Jim H.
> 
> 
>  or why not tape them with 
> > different colors - making it look like cobras /smile/ - have a 
> > suggestion for that one?
> > 
> > The hunt goes on!
> > 
> > Help appreciated! For sure!
> > 
> > 
> > Thanks Ninj!
> > 
> > Regards
> > 
> > Bo Wrangborg
> > Made in Sweden
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Nij" <nigel@m...> 
wrote:
> > > Hej Bo,
> > > 
> > > You have said that you made your own CFS... what make of tubes 
did 
> > you
> > > use... did you buy a kit from MIS and make it yourself, or make 
it 
> > from
> > > parts you found in Sweden? Also, you note that you have just 
have 
> > holes open
> > > to the air in your bottles! I think this is a bad thing, and 
who 
> > knows - it
> > > may have been part of your problem - if solvent evaporates who 
> > knows what
> > > will be left but pigments stacked up on each other (a nasty 
gunk 
> > indeed).
> > > You need to make a breather line for your bottles so that air 
can 
> > get in,
> > > but evaporation is limited from the bottles.
> > > 
> > > I am sorry to hear about your problems, and hope that you 
manage 
> to 
> > get them
> > > resolved.
> > > 
> > > Nij
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: sm7bxd [mailto:sm7bxd@y...]
> > > > Sent: 14 May 2002 21:42
> > > > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
> > > > Subject: [Digital BW] Re: RED ALERT - Attension - MIS Black!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Rhanks - if it that easy - then this must be know in industry.
> > > > Then
> > > > Solutions:
> > > > 1/
> > > > I might be able to find tubes made by Nalgalene or some other
> > > > major deliverant that make polymere things that don't let air 
or
> > > > anything through the plasics.
> > > > 2/
> > > > Find something to coat those tubes with (fat - grease - 
anything 
> > that
> > > > is known to fix such things)that hinder this to happen!
> > > >
> > > > For sure this is not anything about handy - it's finding a 
> > soltion to
> > > > the problem with this very dangerous tubes (if it's ONLY the 
> > tubes)
> > > > or find another tube-setup that doesn't allow for this things 
to

> > > > happen
> > > >
> > > <snip>

I see that you misunderstood my comments. I did not mean to shred up 
your ideas or belittle you. I try to keep my observations as neutral 
as I can. There was no sarcasm implied in my text. If this does not 
seem to be the case, I apologise. I do ask lots of questions. They are 
meant to be honest ones.

I would like to re-emphasise one idea you have misunderstood: that of 
creating a CFS for only the color cart, since the k ink has the worst 
sludging problems. By doing this and using a simple non-CFS cart for 
the k position (vacuum filled), would it not be possible to avoid many 
of the problems you are now trying to overcome? I thought it might be 
a novel solution to the problem...<shrug>

Looking to when we can have a better dialouge,
Jim H.




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "sm7bxd" <sm7bxd@y...> 
wrote:
> Shall I answer,
> 
> this was not a very encouraging letter - can You do the thing for 
me,
> I'll be happy! But as You don't have a CFS/CIS yet I think I can 
give 
> you some advices after building three of them - mostly MIS parts and 
> tools.
> Piece of a cake if you don't have the thumb in the middle of your 
> hand - it will then take some hour longer.
> 
> Your Questions and Statement are so many - and thanks for all Your 
> advices - I'll think of it when I build my fourth system.
> 
> Remember - I have had no problems until now!!!!!!
> I look after my babies!
> 
> As you seems to know all the solutions I leave to the readers to 
> judge! 
> 
> And - for your information - I just wrapped the bootles in a 
> plasticbag and put a damp cloth in there - it was in the beginning - 
> it looked awfull. I have never had the intension to wrap /smile/ my 
> whole printer in a big black plastic sack and throw a damp towel 
into 
> that sack - I'm not that sick - ........
> And I did use the vacuum method for my pigmented inks - all of 
them..
> It worked well and was clean....
> 
> Talking to me could You plese higher the
> standard of discussion --- there is a little problem here!
> 
> And all Your woories - take it easy - I have it all in mind.
> It will not be easy to find the "RR" tubes - But for sure I shall 
> have them! I have started looking and have contact with Saint-Gobain 
-
> The whole day went for that!
> 
> AND yes I repeat again - I ruined one of my 1290's by putting an 
> black cartrige in my Quad 1290 - I took the ship of it for a new set 
> of CDF/CIS carts - but I have already ordered a new one I'll have it 
> next week - I can afford it - but remember - I was very tired after 
> looking for the error "NO BLACK INK AT ALL"! And was angry finding 
my 
> black tube full of grease - at the moment I was black up to my 
elbows-
> ---- now repeated again ----are you happy now my friend!/smile/
> I'm rather human you know and it's on my account! My pleasure!
> 
> 
> You could of cause not do such a stupid thing!
> 
> 
> Best Regards to you all
> 
> Bo Wrangborg
> Made in Sweden
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "jimhayes361" 
> <jimhayes@j...> wrote:
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "sm7bxd" <sm7bxd@y...> 
> > wrote:
> > 
> > First, noone has yet asked: your bottles are from December, but 
how 
> > old was the CFS? Were you REFILLING the bottles with new ones in 
> > December, and thus winding up with perhaps a cm or two of older 
ink 
> > left in bottles and CFS carts when you put in ink from December? 
> This 
> > would mix in new ink with old ink. I've been discovering that for 
> me 
> > it is safe if I discard the ink bottles after six months. I am 
> using 
> > carts right now, and plan to build my own CIS/CFS from the best 
> parts 
> > from the systems in July when some new chip options come out.
> > 
> > You could just discard CFS after six months or one set of bottles, 
> > whichever is longer.
> > 
> > The humidity is very low here in the winter (20-30%RH), and the 
air 
> > pressure is only 80% of sea level (Colorado Rockies). I've had 
> > tremendous problems with clogging/ DSS with Cone and  with 
clogging 
> > only with MIS inks. I put a humidifier in room equiped with a UV 
> light 
> > (germ free) and try to keep humidity at about 38-45%RH. If I go 
> below 
> > 35%RH I ALWAYS have problems. I run two quick draft purge prints 
at 
> > 360 dpi a day. With springtime and humidities of about 40% more 
> often 
> > than not, I am getting less clogs now, and the ink never sits in 
> the 
> > printhead for long to sludge up. 
> > 
> > NEVER, ever, install a cart without a chip. You destroy printer 
> almost 
> > a certainty. I use a very small pointed soldering iron to melt the 
> > nubbins onto the chip but am reconsidering using glue to avoid 
> excess 
> > heat which may upset the chip.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > 
> > > For the wentholes - I have a simple but irriytating solution I 
> have 
> > > made plastic cones (Not Cones plastic /smile/) that I place in 
> this 
> > > holes when not in use - but they are not "automatic" - I can 
> forget 
> > > them.
> > 
> > 
> > So this doesn't create a vacuum at the printhead when printer is 
> off- 
> > that is, if the printhead is trying to get rid of an air bubble 
and 
> > you plug the vent hole- the air bubble may not disperse? I guess 
if 
> > the tubing is permeable it may not matter...
> > 
> > > Erlier I used a plastic bag with a damp piece of cloth to get 
> 100% 
> > > rel humidity taped it - and it works as well
> > 
> > Over the bottles or the whole printer? If the whole printer, I 
> would 
> > be worried about condensation forming on electronic connectors and 
> > circuit boards...
> > 
> > 
> >  
> > > Words to use here : The common tubes are permeable letting fluid 
> out 
> > > and avaporate AND absorbtic letting air in (It's a two way 
> > > interference here) (I don't know air may corrogate some 
chemicals 
> > and 
> > > gibving them other colors, changing the chemical formulas etc 
etc.
> > > 
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > Yes, but make sure whatever you replace them with has the same 
> > physical properties wrt flexibility, weight, no oily residue on 
> > outside of tubing or inside, ability to be glued etc. Remember 
this 
> is 
> > an "engineered" system- it also has to work slapping about back 
and 
> > forth in the printer bed. think of all the requirements for all 
> that 
> > the tubing comes in contact with.
> > 
> >   
> > > What I need now for RR (Rolls Roys) is what I have learnt are 
> tubes 
> > > made of "Tetrafluoroethelene"
> > 
> > Why, this is "Teflon"!! You won't be able to glue it very easily, 
> if 
> > at all...
> > 
> >  that is both absorbtion and 
> > > permationrestistent. I now Nalgen have them - but are expensive 
- 
> > but 
> > > I dont care!
> > 
> > Teflon would be expensive...
> > 
> > > However, are they elastic enought to give it an easy go or do I 
> have 
> > > to heat them to have the right bend and mobility?
> > 
> > Been a long time since I used teflon tubing, don't remember. I 
want 
> to 
> > say it is more rigid than what is used now by a signifigant 
amount, 
> > but don't hold me to it.
> > 
> > > 
> > > They also do have selflocking connections - that could make it 
> easy 
> > to
> > > maintenace the tubes now and then!
> > 
> > 
> > We-Ink has already implemented such a solution, and even offer a 
> kit 
> > to add onto other CIS/CFS units.
> > 
> > > 
> > > It is to remember that the tubes has a far greater relative area 
> to 
> > > the air than the bottles - so for me it's obvious (also by my 
> > > incedent) that this is of great importance to evaluate the 
> systems.
> > > Ok this was the first indikation with MIS "double black" that 
has 
> a 
> > > lot of carbonparticles in it - however in the long term every 
> tube 
> > is 
> > > affected and build up - to stiff grease like things - that can't 
> be 
> > > good at all. Investigated the other tubes as well - and they 
also 
> > > have grease - but not that much!
> > 
> > 
> > Okay, how about this-
> > 
> > make a CIS/CFS for the color cart only! Use vacuum fill virgin 
> carts 
> > for the K cart. It is much cheaper to vacuum fill the k cart- and 
> > easier.
> > 
> >   
> > > 
> > > So when printing - are You happy wityh the blacks - if not I 
know 
> > > where it's hidden./call me and I'll tell You - smile/
> > > 
> > > Du Pont have alo such tubes - but not on the web! And I'm 
certain 
> > > that industri fellows can help me to further deliverants!   
> > > 
> > > I don't care if the tubes are single - it's easy to connect them 
> > with
> > > some sort of silicone every 5 cm or so
> > 
> > And let the assemblage flop to and fro in the printer bed? How 
long 
> > before it falls apart? That's called fatigue cycling. Actually, 
> that's 
> > a real question not a sarcastic one- I just don't know how it 
would 

> > work- you'd have to watch it closely for awhile. And RTV Silicone 
> > won't stick to all surfaces- especaially teflon!
> > 
> > Good luck, if you come up with something I'll try it.
> > Jim H.
> >

Sorry to jump in but.... Tygon is a clear PVC tubing
and has a high coefficient of friction so if you want
fluids to slide easily through your tubing it is not
the right choice.  PVC does not pass air or moisture
though.  PVC is good when you want a highly flexable
tubing that will not fatigue fail.  Silicone will pass
water through it and it also has a high coefficient of
friction.  It is also highly flexable.  If you want
very free fluid movement I would suggest polyethylene
or teflon tubing both of which have very low
coefficient of friction.  Teflon is tough as hell but
not very flexable.  Polyethylene has the best of both
worlds in that it is flexble and has very good fluid
flow.
--- sm7bxd <sm7bxd@...> wrote:
> Nij,
> 
> am I misslead - don't you think it's the tubes?
> 
> Is that one for certain "absorbtion and
> permationresistent" as it 
> must.
> 
> The PDF sais it has waterabsorbion - that indicates
> that it's not
> permationrsitant - nothing about airabsorbtion - and
> not that it's 
> made of "tetrafluoroethelen" - I have a feeling this
> is a cheap one!
> The headline also states it's a "siliconebased" -
> that's the worst 
> ones as I learnt from the friend "hospital
> engineer/designer"!
> Avoid those Silicone ABSORBS water etc - You know
> that as well as I 
> do,
> when placing siliconbased "leakstopers" it hardens
> by the water in 
> the air! Voila!!!
> 
> Remember our tubes shall last for at least a year or
> more and DO it's 
> thing also protecting the ink - things used for
> temporary pumsetups 
> in hospitals are often switched out for many a
> reason - then the 
> requiremensts I stated earlier are not fullfilled!
>  
> But if that's the one - thanks - now I know that I
> have to look 
> elseware. That information was very important for
> me. I mean it Nij - 
> thanks again! Now I don't have to spend time on what
> I have.
> 
> "What's wrong" - I have already described to You
> Nij!
> 
> There is a reason - I'll/We'll find it!
> I think this is at least one of the answers!
> 
> Nij - You helped me!
> 
> Regards
> Bo Wrangborg
> Sweden
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Nij"
> <nigel@m...> wrote:
> > Bo,
> > 
> > What's wrong with what you probably have already?
> Tygon vacuum 
> tubing
> > R-3603???
> > 
> >
>
http://www.tygon.com/new/europe/english/en_europe_index.html
> > 
> > Nij
> > 
> > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: sm7bxd [mailto:sm7bxd@y...]
> > > Sent: 15 May 2002 01:04
> > > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
> > > Subject: [Digital BW] Re: RED ALERT - Attension
> - MIS Black!
> > >
> > >
> > > Nij,
> > >
> > > no problems by that - I buy another 1290 - I can
> afford 
> that./smile/
> > > Cpmpared to my "Hassle-Blades" Minolta Multi pro
> etc etc it's a 
> minor
> > > cost.
> > > It's expensive and it's fun - LET's have fun!
> > >
> > > I bought the tubes from MIS - they are cheap as
> other real stuff
> > > costs - I have also learnt that every system
> like this are using 
> this
> > > tubeset - none of them have the more expensive
> ones.
> > >
> > > For the wentholes - I have a simple but
> irriytating solution I 
> have
> > > made plastic cones (Not Cones plastic /smile/)
> that I place in 
> this
> > > holes when not in use - but they are not
> "automatic" - I can 
> forget
> > > them.
> > > Erlier I used a plastic bag with a damp piece of
> cloth to get 100%
> > > rel humidity taped it - and it works as well but
> look rediculous 
> when
> > > custumers came for looking at my gear....aren't
> we some sort of
> > > crazy...but we photographers are as well some
> sort 
> of "artists" ...
> > > and dont like that - ahhh plastic bags.hmm....
> > >
> > > Have just made an investigation by friends
> (hospital engineer and
> > > designer for apperatures, also been at
> > >
>
http://nalgenelab.nalgenunc.com/products/catalog/category.asp?
> > > catId=173
> > >
> > > The Nalgene place to have a look - it look
> promising.
> > >
> > > Words to use here : The common tubes are
> permeable letting fluid 
> out
> > > and avaporate AND absorbtic letting air in (It's
> a two way
> > > interference here) (I don't know air may
> corrogate some chemicals 
> and
> > > gibving them other colors, changing the chemical
> formulas etc etc.
> > >
> > >
> > > What I need now for RR (Rolls Roys) is what I
> have learnt are 
> tubes
> > > made of "Tetrafluoroethelene" that is both
> absorbtion and
> > > permationrestistent. I now Nalgen have them -
> but are expensive - 
> but
> > > I dont care!
> > > However, are they elastic enought to give it an
> easy go or do I 
> have
> > > to heat them to have the right bend and
> mobility?
> > >
> > > They also do have selflocking connections - that
> could make it 
> easy to
> > > maintenace the tubes now and then!
> > >
> > > It is to remember that the tubes has a far
> greater relative area 
> to
> > > the air than the bottles - so for me it's
> obvious (also by my
> > > incedent) that this is of great importance to
> evaluate the 
> systems.
> > > Ok this was the first indikation with MIS
> "double black" that has 
> a
> > > lot of carbonparticles in it - however in the
> long term every 
> tube is
> > > affected and build up - to stiff grease like
> things - that can't 
> be
> > > good at all. Investigated the other tubes as
> well - and they also
> > > have grease - but not that much!
> > >
> > > So when printing - are You happy wityh the
> blacks - if not I know
> > > where it's hidden./call me and I'll tell You -
> smile/
> > >
> > > Du Pont have alo such tubes - but not on the
> web! And I'm certain
> > > that industri fellows can help me to further
> deliverants!
> > >
> > > I don't care if the tubes are single - it's easy
> to connect them 
> with
> > > some sort of silicone every 5 cm or so or why
> not tape them with
> > > different colors - making it look like cobras
> /smile/ - have a
> > > suggestion for that one?
> > >
> > > The hunt goes on!
> > >
> 
=== message truncated ===


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

Talking to Saint-Gobain (Tygon) England just now -
One of the hottest is:
According to Nij this is what is used - one of their cheapest
wich not do fullfill the criteras set up:

They have the following tube that are used by now - to compare to:
The engineers and I has the conclusion it's not suited for this 
purpose - it's one of their simplest and cheapest one!
And it doesn't meet the criterias set up below to the level needed!
Here is the old one:

Look for Tygon® Vacuum Tubing : Formulation R-3603

http://www.tygon.com/new/europe/english/en_europe_index.html

What we have stated 
1/ Low pressure
2/ Low flow or slow flow
3/ The Specific area of the tubes are very big that is:
   the tubes must not absorbatic or permeatic.
This is 1,2 and 3 - Fluid stays relatively long time in the tube
The risk of both absorbation of outer air and parmation and thereby 
evaporation on the tubes surface are to be stopped.  
What is good:
a/ that the "transporting area" is very good.
b/ That friction agains the tubes walls are NOT a big issue(slow 
flow)!
c/ Pressure compared to the pressure that ALL tubes of Tygon is of no 
interest here - We have a very low pressure - next to none here 
compared to what the tubes they sell have!
d/All othe tubes now examened has better/same fattigue strenge.

The flexibility of the of the tubes are important - and they stated 
that the hardnes meassured in Shore does in whole (some correlation 
here but it could also be the opposit) has not to do with the bending 
stress or bending elasticy force.

All othe tubes now examened has better fattigue strenge.

The HOT one just now is the inert tube that You can see here:

Look for: Tygon® Inert Tubing Formulation SE-200
http://www.tygon.com/new/europe/english/en_europe_index.html

It has been compared in bending stress to the one we use - and it
should not be "that" expensive - and the engineers is saying that it 
follows the criterias set up. The one for test has a very slightly 
higher bending elasticity.

I'm just now talking businees how much it will cost.
If this tube is not fit - then we have others to test - but we start 
at "lowest" price(that meets the criterias) and goes up to next fit 
tube with a bit higher price.

They also stated that they do batches on rekvisition with other 
formulas - and if we are lucky - one of those might be best suited - 
they allways keep a party of that special batch "in case"?

I wish I had the money to buy all of the tubes that fit at once
- but this is on "personal" economy - and for every set of tubes - my 
wife wants a new hat/smile/. You know it shall be fair here in my 
family. Some of this tubes are very EXPENSIVE - and I don't want to 
end up with a box of nonusable tubes - that did cost the same as a 
new TTL-prism for my Hasselblade. 

That is - this will take some time - unless someone handy (real 
handy) will also participate.
However if many participate - there is a loss in comparing and 
correlating the results of the result.

Since I have build three CFS's and are very familjar with them I, a 
bit shy, states that I'll take care of it.
If not satisfyied - someone else might continue this job!
One thing I have already noted is that the holders of the tubes are
not allways that good - and letting after some time the tubes touch 
the printer during it's operation. That has to be modified as well.
Are there anybody having difficulty/wishes with their units, no 
matter the system - MAIL Me! Don't let this be the arena for that,
I'll  put toghther the result and publish it here in B/W - forum - 
and also at the Epson printer forum.
But I have found this place to be the right place - since most here 
seems to have long experience of - continous flow systems for the 
Epsons.
The change of tubes might include a modified holder as well! That 
schould not be an big issue - I'm certain there are many inventors 
her to 
comes with a simple solution for that one!

Best Regards
Bo Wrangborg
Made in Sweden
 





--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Dan Disch <disch7634@y...> 
wrote:

> Sorry to jump in but.... Tygon is a clear PVC tubing
> and has a high coefficient of friction so if you want
> fluids to slide easily through your tubing it is not
> the right choice.  PVC does not pass air or moisture
> though.  PVC is good when you want a highly flexable
> tubing that will not fatigue fail.  Silicone will pass
> water through it and it also has a high coefficient of
> friction.  It is also highly flexable.  If you want
> very free fluid movement I would suggest polyethylene
> or teflon tubing both of which have very low
> coefficient of friction.  Teflon is tough as hell but
> not very flexable.  Polyethylene has the best of both
> worlds in that it is flexble and has very good fluid
> flow.
> --- sm7bxd <sm7bxd@y...> wrote:
> > Nij,
> > 
> > am I misslead - don't you think it's the tubes?
> > 
> > Is that one for certain "absorbtion and
> > permationresistent" as it 
> > must.
> > 
> > The PDF sais it has waterabsorbion - that indicates
> > that it's not
> > permationrsitant - nothing about airabsorbtion - and
> > not that it's 
> > made of "tetrafluoroethelen" - I have a feeling this
> > is a cheap one!
> > The headline also states it's a "siliconebased" -
> > that's the worst 
> > ones as I learnt from the friend "hospital
> > engineer/designer"!
> > Avoid those Silicone ABSORBS water etc - You know
> > that as well as I 
> > do,
> > when placing siliconbased "leakstopers" it hardens
> > by the water in 
> > the air! Voila!!!
> > 
> > Remember our tubes shall last for at least a year or
> > more and DO it's 
> > thing also protecting the ink - things used for
> > temporary pumsetups 
> > in hospitals are often switched out for many a
> > reason - then the 
> > requiremensts I stated earlier are not fullfilled!
> >  
> > But if that's the one - thanks - now I know that I
> > have to look 
> > elseware. That information was very important for
> > me. I mean it Nij - 
> > thanks again! Now I don't have to spend time on what
> > I have.
> > 
> > "What's wrong" - I have already described to You
> > Nij!
> > 
> > There is a reason - I'll/We'll find it!
> > I think this is at least one of the answers!
> > 
> > Nij - You helped me!
> > 
> > Regards
> > Bo Wrangborg
> > Sweden
> > 
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Nij"
> > <nigel@m...> wrote:
> > > Bo,
> > > 
> > > What's wrong with what you probably have already?
> > Tygon vacuum 
> > tubing
> > > R-3603???
> > > 
> > >
> >
> http://www.tygon.com/new/europe/english/en_europe_index.html
> > > 
> > > Nij
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: sm7bxd [mailto:sm7bxd@y...]
> > > > Sent: 15 May 2002 01:04
> > > > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
> > > > Subject: [Digital BW] Re: RED ALERT - Attension
> > - MIS Black!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Nij,
> > > >
> > > > no problems by that - I buy another 1290 - I can
> > afford 
> > that./smile/
> > > > Cpmpared to my "Hassle-Blades" Minolta Multi pro
> > etc etc it's a 
> > minor
> > > > cost.
> > > > It's expensive and it's fun - LET's have fun!
> > > >
> > > > I bought the tubes from MIS - they are cheap as
> > other real stuff
> > > > costs - I have also learnt that every system
> > like this are using 
> > this
> > > > tubeset - none of them have the more expensive
> > ones.
> > > >
> > > > For the wentholes - I have a simple but
> > irriytating solution I 
> > have
> > > > made plastic cones (Not Cones plastic /smile/)
> > that I place in 
> > this
> > > > holes when not in use - but they are not
> > "automatic" - I can 
> > forget
> > > > them.
> > > > Erlier I used a plastic bag with a damp piece of
> > cloth to get 100%
> > > > rel humidity taped it - and it works as well but
> > look rediculous 
> > when
> > > > custumers came for looking at my gear....aren't
> > we some sort of
> > > > crazy...but we photographers are as well some
> > sort 
> > of "artists" ...
> > > > and dont like that - ahhh plastic bags.hmm....
> > > >
> > > > Have just made an investigation by friends
> > (hospital engineer and
> > > > designer for apperatures, also been at
> > > >
> >
> http://nalgenelab.nalgenunc.com/products/catalog/category.asp?
> > > > catId=173
> > > >
> > > > The Nalgene place to have a look - it look
> > promising.
> > > >
> > > > Words to use here : The common tubes are
> > permeable letting fluid 
> > out
> > > > and avaporate AND absorbtic letting air in (It's
> > a two way
> > > > interference here) (I don't know air may
> > corrogate some chemicals 
> > and
> > > > gibving them other colors, changing the chemical
> > formulas etc etc.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > What I need now for RR (Rolls Roys) is what I
> > have learnt are 
> > tubes
> > > > made of "Tetrafluoroethelene" that is both
> > absorbtion and
> > > > permationrestistent. I now Nalgen have them -
> > but are expensive - 
> > but
> > > > I dont care!
> > > > However, are they elastic enought to give it an
> > easy go or do I 
> > have
> > > > to heat them to have the right bend and
> > mobility?
> > > >
> > > > They also do have selflocking connections - that
> > could make it 
> > easy to
> > > > maintenace the tubes now and then!
> > > >
> > > > It is to remember that the tubes has a far
> > greater relative area 
> > to
> > > > the air than the bottles - so for me it's
> > obvious (also by my
> > > > incedent) that this is of great importance to
> > evaluate the 
> > systems.
> > > > Ok this was the first indikation with MIS
> > "double black" that has 
> > a
> > > > lot of carbonparticles in it - however in the
> > long term every 
> > tube is
> > > > affected and build up - to stiff grease like
> > things - that can't 
> > be
> > > > good at all. Investigated the other tubes as
> > well - and they also
> > > > have grease - but not that much!
> > > >
> > > > So when printing - are You happy wityh the
> > blacks - if not I know
> > > > where it's hidden./call me and I'll tell You -
> > smile/
> > > >
> > > > Du Pont have alo such tubes - but not on the
> > web! And I'm certain
> > > > that industri fellows can help me to further
> > deliverants!
> > > >
> > > > I don't care if the tubes are single - it's easy
> > to connect them 
> > with
> > > > some sort of silicone every 5 cm or so or why
> > not tape them with
> > > > different colors - making it look like cobras
> > /smile/ - have a
> > > > suggestion for that one?
> > > >
> > > > The hunt goes on!
> > > >
> > 
> === message truncated ===
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience
> http://launch.yahoo.com

Fellows,

Here is their word document on my site for You to study:
This is their first propasal. Made together with me!
They also have the photoes of the CFS/CIS etc systems.
We are going to do this scientificly!!! 
As You see - it's a rather more sofisticated tube!
Got it a minute ago!

www.visicon.se/tubes




Regards
Bo Wrangborg
Sweden




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "sm7bxd" <sm7bxd@y...>

Hallow fellows,

Oh - so many e-mails stating the SAME PROBLEM! 

I have got many E-mails - one of them was very informative but
not an "glad" information

I see that there are many people having the same trouble
with the CIS/CFS not meeting the criterias set up in former inlays!
(permeatic (out) and molecyles reaching the ink (absorbic inwards)

One person has allready tested The Tygon Inert Tubes Formula 200.
Result in short - the inert cracked after a time of use!

That is - all of TYGONS hight quality tubes are not fit because of 
to hight a bending flexibility or bending elasticity! However se 
below!

That is....
Going to new deliverants to go on researching.
Dow Chemical, Du Pont I know of - Do You know
of any others - there must be many manyfacturers for this tubes
OD 1/8 ID 1/16 - for industry, reserchcompanies and hospital use!

Think?

Or a solution that one can treat the surface of the tubes we are 
using now???

Feel free to mail me here at yahoo - as I don't want my real E-mail 
going public.

I'm continuing - It might be so that the more "stiff" tubes of real 
hight quality - just needs another support that rises the tubes some 
cm's?? And if TYGON is in game again - but it cannot be an inert tube
It must be one of their solid tubes.
Also buying tubes this way - is to hold them toghether in another 
simple way (OK - got an address from TYGON for a manufacturer of glue 
that can be used together with all their tubes...)

That's it for the time - also don't order TYGON inert Formula 200
as it has allready been tested - negative!

Let the hunt for tubes or other solution contionue - contribute - by 
E-mailing me - so I can put toghether the results - that hopefully 
drives us forward!


Best Regards

Bo Wrangborg
Sweden
sm7bxd@...
(for this CIS/CFS "tube-questions")



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "sm7bxd" <sm7bxd@y...> 
wrote:

> Fellows,
> 
> Here is their word document on my site for You to study:
> This is their first propasal. Made together with me!
> They also have the photoes of the CFS/CIS etc systems.
> We are going to do this scientificly!!! 
> As You see - it's a rather more sofisticated tube!
> Got it a minute ago!
> 
> www.visicon.se/tubes
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Regards
> Bo Wrangborg
> Sweden
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "sm7bxd" <sm7bxd@y...>