Digital BW, The Print

Hi Martin,

We may agree on many things and of course disagree on some things.

Given the various opinions on this forum and the earlier PiezoBW forum as to
what constitutes the "ideal" print tonality etc...I don't think it would be
possible or realistic to get a group, even a group of 'respected'
photographers to agree on a single tonal set/image or look for a selenium
print.

I honestly think a "committee" approach to determining the model for the
Selenium print would have been a failure.

In my opinion, it is better to take the best print from a master printer and
do the best possible to match that one print.

Of course this is limiting to some degree, but I think it would lead to a
more accurate final result, admittedly based on a master print, versus an
averaging of some group of prints from various printers.  A case of "too
many cooks spoil the broth" so to speak.  Or put another way...avoiding
mediocrity.

Hey...if Jon Cone comes up with the "Ansel Adams Neutral Inkset" (gives
really black skies...) I think that is great too.  Or perhaps the Silver
Gelatin Inkset based on the prints of....

Of course that is just my opinion...(wINK)

Steadman
  -----Original Message-----
  From: Martin Wesley [mailto:mwesley250@...]
  Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 1:26 AM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Selenium beta


  Steadman,

  Well on that I don't agree although I think it all worked out okay. Better
  to have taken a score of selenium toned prints from various respected
  photographers and have worked up from there to something in the middle.

  In response to Jerry below, I do agree. The amount of variation in hue
among
  selenium toned silver prints is HUGE. Some papers show no color change at
  all and I have seen other that went deep, deep purple brown if they even
got
  near the toner tray. We all have our favorite papers and that choice is
  often based upon how they tone.

  I tone pretty hard and prefer Oriental paper to all others so you should
  keep that in mind if I say I like the Selenium PiezoTone ink. A lot of
  people may find it too magenta for their tastes.

  The good news is that the Selenium ink shows a great deal of difference in
  hue depending upon the paper that you chose. So even with a fixed ink hue
I
  think you will still find a good size range of final print hue available.
  There is also the possibility of using inks from the Warm Neutral or Cool
  Neutral ink sets in combination with the Selenium or by blending inks to
get
  just the color you want. Hopefully people will give this a try and share
  their results.

  Of course it would be nice to also have a variable hued selenium ink set
  available. One with a neutral black, cool Y and C with a small gamut
magenta
  toner for use with the MIS-VM workflow. (Hint, hint!!)

  Martin


  ----- Original Message -----
  From: "Steadman Uhlich" <steadmanuhlich@...>
  To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
  Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 10:43 PM
  Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Selenium beta


  > This is precisely why I respect that Jon Cone used a Selenium toned
print
  > from his mentor and master printer.  He respected Gassen's skill,
  judgement
  > and technique to the point to develop an ink based on the tones in a
  Gassen
  > print.  I think that is great.
  >
  > Regards,
  >
  > Steadman
  >   -----Original Message-----
  >   From: Jerry Olson [mailto:jerryolson@...]
  >   Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 8:21 PM
  >   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  >   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Selenium beta
  >
  >
  >   The tone of a silver print in selenium toner is very dependent on both
  >   the dilution and the length of time toned. You could get 50 different
  >   tones from selenium toner. Also it is hugely dependent on the brand of
  >   paper you are toning.  So what is the color of a selenium toned print?
  >   It really varies...
  >
  >
  >   Jerry
  >
  >   Paul Roark wrote:
  >   >
  >   > Robert Morrison wrote, in part:
  >   >
  >   > >... On EAM I would say that my general
  >   > >impression is that FS-N looks blue and Selenium
  >   > >Piezotones look ever so slightly eggplant.
  >   >
  >   > There appears to be a substantial variance in the tones that are
  > achieved by
  >   > toning silver prints with selenium -- the paper, strength of toner
and
  > time
  >   > in toner being the primary variables.  In recent years I have (or
had)
  > been
  >   > using Kodak Polymax Fine Art paper and toning in selenium 1:19 for 3
  >   > minutes.  This light toning was the usual practice, as far as I
could
  > tell,
  >   > for those who wanted better archival properties, a slight increase
in
  > Dmax,
  >   > and not a severe color change.  (Heavy selenium toning often results
  is
  > a
  >   > rather magenta print.)
  >   >
  >   > Using the X-Rite spectrophotometer to read a sample of a silver
print
  > that
  >   > was toned in selenium per this normal procedure, I get the
following:
  >   >
  >   > Dark black (not Dmax):   c=1.70, m=1.71, y=1.66, v (visual)=1.71
  >   >
  >   > Shadow tone (about 75%): c=0.99, m=1.00, y=0.99, v=1.00
  >   >
  >   > Midtone (about 50%):     c=0.59, m=0.60, y=0.59, v=0.60
  >   >
  >   > Light tone (about 25%):  c=0.33, m=0.33, y=0.32, v=0.30
  >   >
  >   > So, basically, the light tones are slightly cool, the midtones are
  > neutral
  >   > with a slight magenta cast (the slight "eggplant" tone, I would
  assume),
  > and
  >   > the deep shadows/near black tones are cool.
  >   >
  >   > It would be interesting to see how the new PiezoTone selenium values
  > look in
  >   > comparison to these.
  >   >
  >   > For comparison, an FS-N test strip on EAM, with the Piezo driver
  gives:
  >   >
  >   > 100% black: c=1.59, m=1.60, y=1.61, v=1.59
  >   >
  >   > 75%:        c=1.00, m=1.00, y=0.98, v=1.00
  >   >
  >   > 50%:        c=0.66, m=0.65, y=0.63, v=0.66
  >   >
  >   > 25%:        c=0.32, m=0.32, y=0.31, v=0.32
  >   >
  >   > Paul
  >   > http://www.PaulRoark.com
  >   >
  >   >
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