Digital BW, The Print

Robert Morrison wrote, in part:

>... On EAM I would say that my general
>impression is that FS-N looks blue and Selenium
>Piezotones look ever so slightly eggplant.

There appears to be a substantial variance in the tones that are achieved by
toning silver prints with selenium -- the paper, strength of toner and time
in toner being the primary variables.  In recent years I have (or had) been
using Kodak Polymax Fine Art paper and toning in selenium 1:19 for 3
minutes.  This light toning was the usual practice, as far as I could tell,
for those who wanted better archival properties, a slight increase in Dmax,
and not a severe color change.  (Heavy selenium toning often results is a
rather magenta print.)

Using the X-Rite spectrophotometer to read a sample of a silver print that
was toned in selenium per this normal procedure, I get the following:

Dark black (not Dmax):   c=1.70, m=1.71, y=1.66, v (visual)=1.71

Shadow tone (about 75%): c=0.99, m=1.00, y=0.99, v=1.00

Midtone (about 50%):     c=0.59, m=0.60, y=0.59, v=0.60

Light tone (about 25%):  c=0.33, m=0.33, y=0.32, v=0.30

So, basically, the light tones are slightly cool, the midtones are neutral
with a slight magenta cast (the slight "eggplant" tone, I would assume), and
the deep shadows/near black tones are cool.

It would be interesting to see how the new PiezoTone selenium values look in
comparison to these.

For comparison, an FS-N test strip on EAM, with the Piezo driver gives:

100% black: c=1.59, m=1.60, y=1.61, v=1.59

75%:        c=1.00, m=1.00, y=0.98, v=1.00

50%:        c=0.66, m=0.65, y=0.63, v=0.66

25%:        c=0.32, m=0.32, y=0.31, v=0.32

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

The tone of a silver print in selenium toner is very dependent on both
the dilution and the length of time toned. You could get 50 different
tones from selenium toner. Also it is hugely dependent on the brand of
paper you are toning.  So what is the color of a selenium toned print?
It really varies...


Jerry

Paul Roark wrote:

> 
> Robert Morrison wrote, in part:
> 
> >... On EAM I would say that my general
> >impression is that FS-N looks blue and Selenium
> >Piezotones look ever so slightly eggplant.
> 
> There appears to be a substantial variance in the tones that are achieved by
> toning silver prints with selenium -- the paper, strength of toner and time
> in toner being the primary variables.  In recent years I have (or had) been
> using Kodak Polymax Fine Art paper and toning in selenium 1:19 for 3
> minutes.  This light toning was the usual practice, as far as I could tell,
> for those who wanted better archival properties, a slight increase in Dmax,
> and not a severe color change.  (Heavy selenium toning often results is a
> rather magenta print.)
> 
> Using the X-Rite spectrophotometer to read a sample of a silver print that
> was toned in selenium per this normal procedure, I get the following:
> 
> Dark black (not Dmax):   c=1.70, m=1.71, y=1.66, v (visual)=1.71
> 
> Shadow tone (about 75%): c=0.99, m=1.00, y=0.99, v=1.00
> 
> Midtone (about 50%):     c=0.59, m=0.60, y=0.59, v=0.60
> 
> Light tone (about 25%):  c=0.33, m=0.33, y=0.32, v=0.30
> 
> So, basically, the light tones are slightly cool, the midtones are neutral
> with a slight magenta cast (the slight "eggplant" tone, I would assume), and
> the deep shadows/near black tones are cool.
> 
> It would be interesting to see how the new PiezoTone selenium values look in
> comparison to these.
> 
> For comparison, an FS-N test strip on EAM, with the Piezo driver gives:
> 
> 100% black: c=1.59, m=1.60, y=1.61, v=1.59
> 
> 75%:        c=1.00, m=1.00, y=0.98, v=1.00
> 
> 50%:        c=0.66, m=0.65, y=0.63, v=0.66
> 
> 25%:        c=0.32, m=0.32, y=0.31, v=0.32
> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
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> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
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> 
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> 
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This is precisely why I respect that Jon Cone used a Selenium toned print
from his mentor and master printer.  He respected Gassen's skill, judgement
and technique to the point to develop an ink based on the tones in a Gassen
print.  I think that is great.

Regards,

Steadman

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Jerry Olson [mailto:jerryolson@...]
  Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 8:21 PM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Selenium beta


  The tone of a silver print in selenium toner is very dependent on both
  the dilution and the length of time toned. You could get 50 different
  tones from selenium toner. Also it is hugely dependent on the brand of
  paper you are toning.  So what is the color of a selenium toned print?
  It really varies...


  Jerry

  Paul Roark wrote:
  >
  > Robert Morrison wrote, in part:
  >
  > >... On EAM I would say that my general
  > >impression is that FS-N looks blue and Selenium
  > >Piezotones look ever so slightly eggplant.
  >
  > There appears to be a substantial variance in the tones that are
achieved by
  > toning silver prints with selenium -- the paper, strength of toner and
time
  > in toner being the primary variables.  In recent years I have (or had)
been
  > using Kodak Polymax Fine Art paper and toning in selenium 1:19 for 3
  > minutes.  This light toning was the usual practice, as far as I could
tell,
  > for those who wanted better archival properties, a slight increase in
Dmax,
  > and not a severe color change.  (Heavy selenium toning often results is
a
  > rather magenta print.)
  >
  > Using the X-Rite spectrophotometer to read a sample of a silver print
that
  > was toned in selenium per this normal procedure, I get the following:
  >
  > Dark black (not Dmax):   c=1.70, m=1.71, y=1.66, v (visual)=1.71
  >
  > Shadow tone (about 75%): c=0.99, m=1.00, y=0.99, v=1.00
  >
  > Midtone (about 50%):     c=0.59, m=0.60, y=0.59, v=0.60
  >
  > Light tone (about 25%):  c=0.33, m=0.33, y=0.32, v=0.30
  >
  > So, basically, the light tones are slightly cool, the midtones are
neutral
  > with a slight magenta cast (the slight "eggplant" tone, I would assume),
and
  > the deep shadows/near black tones are cool.
  >
  > It would be interesting to see how the new PiezoTone selenium values
look in
  > comparison to these.
  >
  > For comparison, an FS-N test strip on EAM, with the Piezo driver gives:
  >
  > 100% black: c=1.59, m=1.60, y=1.61, v=1.59
  >
  > 75%:        c=1.00, m=1.00, y=0.98, v=1.00
  >
  > 50%:        c=0.66, m=0.65, y=0.63, v=0.66
  >
  > 25%:        c=0.32, m=0.32, y=0.31, v=0.32
  >
  > Paul
  > http://www.PaulRoark.com
  >
  >
  > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
  >
  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
  >
  > Please follow these basic guidelines:
  > - Include your full name with your message.
  > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
  > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep them short.
  > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
  > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
  > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
  > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.
  >
  >
  >
  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

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  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
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  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

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  - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
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  - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Paul,

I took CMYK density readings of the wedges I printed with the Selenium
PiezoTone ink on EAM and Photo Rag, Warm Neutral PiezoTone, MIS-FS Neutral
and MIS-FS Standard and compared them to your silver fiber print in a pdf
file you can find in the Files section in folder:

Files > Ink Sets > PiezoTones > performance comparisons > PiezoTones gray
scales

I matched up the silver print density to the inkjet densities based on the
closest visual density. What I see is that the CMY densities are all pretty
close at any given visual or overall density. The Selenium PiezoTone  seems
to track the silver print CMY distribution reasonably well. However, I
suspect that we are operating at the limit of our spectrophotometers. (Paul
has an X-Rite Digital Swatchbook and I have a Spectrocam). What we really
need are spectrophotometers accurate to 3 or 4 decimal places. Either that
or we need to compare the full spectrum values which is not an easy task.
Looking at the spectrums from 380 nm to 750nm of each reading as I took
them, I could see the shifts in color balance more clearly than just from
the CMYK values. This close to the neutral point our eyes are probably more
sensitive to minute differences than our instruments.

I also suspect that what we see as the hue of the print is mostly a result
of the what we see in the mid and high tones rather than the deep grays.

I don't know if this throws any light on the subject, but it was an
interesting exercise.

Martin Wesley

http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html



----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...>
To: "DigitalB&WPrint" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 1:57 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Selenium beta


> Robert Morrison wrote, in part:
>
> >... On EAM I would say that my general
> >impression is that FS-N looks blue and Selenium
> >Piezotones look ever so slightly eggplant.
>
> There appears to be a substantial variance in the tones that are achieved
by
> toning silver prints with selenium -- the paper, strength of toner and
time
> in toner being the primary variables.  In recent years I have (or had)
been
> using Kodak Polymax Fine Art paper and toning in selenium 1:19 for 3
> minutes.  This light toning was the usual practice, as far as I could
tell,
> for those who wanted better archival properties, a slight increase in
Dmax,
> and not a severe color change.  (Heavy selenium toning often results is a
> rather magenta print.)
>
> Using the X-Rite spectrophotometer to read a sample of a silver print that
> was toned in selenium per this normal procedure, I get the following:
>
> Dark black (not Dmax):   c=1.70, m=1.71, y=1.66, v (visual)=1.71
>
> Shadow tone (about 75%): c=0.99, m=1.00, y=0.99, v=1.00
>
> Midtone (about 50%):     c=0.59, m=0.60, y=0.59, v=0.60
>
> Light tone (about 25%):  c=0.33, m=0.33, y=0.32, v=0.30
>
> So, basically, the light tones are slightly cool, the midtones are neutral
> with a slight magenta cast (the slight "eggplant" tone, I would assume),
and
> the deep shadows/near black tones are cool.
>
> It would be interesting to see how the new PiezoTone selenium values look
in
> comparison to these.
>
> For comparison, an FS-N test strip on EAM, with the Piezo driver gives:
>
> 100% black: c=1.59, m=1.60, y=1.61, v=1.59
>
> 75%:        c=1.00, m=1.00, y=0.98, v=1.00
>
> 50%:        c=0.66, m=0.65, y=0.63, v=0.66
>
> 25%:        c=0.32, m=0.32, y=0.31, v=0.32
>
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Steadman,

Well on that I don't agree although I think it all worked out okay. Better
to have taken a score of selenium toned prints from various respected
photographers and have worked up from there to something in the middle.

In response to Jerry below, I do agree. The amount of variation in hue among
selenium toned silver prints is HUGE. Some papers show no color change at
all and I have seen other that went deep, deep purple brown if they even got
near the toner tray. We all have our favorite papers and that choice is
often based upon how they tone.

I tone pretty hard and prefer Oriental paper to all others so you should
keep that in mind if I say I like the Selenium PiezoTone ink. A lot of
people may find it too magenta for their tastes.

The good news is that the Selenium ink shows a great deal of difference in
hue depending upon the paper that you chose. So even with a fixed ink hue I
think you will still find a good size range of final print hue available.
There is also the possibility of using inks from the Warm Neutral or Cool
Neutral ink sets in combination with the Selenium or by blending inks to get
just the color you want. Hopefully people will give this a try and share
their results.

Of course it would be nice to also have a variable hued selenium ink set
available. One with a neutral black, cool Y and C with a small gamut magenta
toner for use with the MIS-VM workflow. (Hint, hint!!)

Martin


----- Original Message -----
From: "Steadman Uhlich" <steadmanuhlich@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 10:43 PM
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Selenium beta


> This is precisely why I respect that Jon Cone used a Selenium toned print
> from his mentor and master printer.  He respected Gassen's skill,
judgement
> and technique to the point to develop an ink based on the tones in a
Gassen
> print.  I think that is great.
>
> Regards,
>
> Steadman
>   -----Original Message-----
>   From: Jerry Olson [mailto:jerryolson@...]
>   Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 8:21 PM
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Selenium beta
>
>
>   The tone of a silver print in selenium toner is very dependent on both
>   the dilution and the length of time toned. You could get 50 different
>   tones from selenium toner. Also it is hugely dependent on the brand of
>   paper you are toning.  So what is the color of a selenium toned print?
>   It really varies...
>
>
>   Jerry
>
>   Paul Roark wrote:
>   >
>   > Robert Morrison wrote, in part:
>   >
>   > >... On EAM I would say that my general
>   > >impression is that FS-N looks blue and Selenium
>   > >Piezotones look ever so slightly eggplant.
>   >
>   > There appears to be a substantial variance in the tones that are
> achieved by
>   > toning silver prints with selenium -- the paper, strength of toner and
> time
>   > in toner being the primary variables.  In recent years I have (or had)
> been
>   > using Kodak Polymax Fine Art paper and toning in selenium 1:19 for 3
>   > minutes.  This light toning was the usual practice, as far as I could
> tell,
>   > for those who wanted better archival properties, a slight increase in
> Dmax,
>   > and not a severe color change.  (Heavy selenium toning often results
is
> a
>   > rather magenta print.)
>   >
>   > Using the X-Rite spectrophotometer to read a sample of a silver print
> that
>   > was toned in selenium per this normal procedure, I get the following:
>   >
>   > Dark black (not Dmax):   c=1.70, m=1.71, y=1.66, v (visual)=1.71
>   >
>   > Shadow tone (about 75%): c=0.99, m=1.00, y=0.99, v=1.00
>   >
>   > Midtone (about 50%):     c=0.59, m=0.60, y=0.59, v=0.60
>   >
>   > Light tone (about 25%):  c=0.33, m=0.33, y=0.32, v=0.30
>   >
>   > So, basically, the light tones are slightly cool, the midtones are
> neutral
>   > with a slight magenta cast (the slight "eggplant" tone, I would
assume),
> and
>   > the deep shadows/near black tones are cool.
>   >
>   > It would be interesting to see how the new PiezoTone selenium values
> look in
>   > comparison to these.
>   >
>   > For comparison, an FS-N test strip on EAM, with the Piezo driver
gives:
>   >
>   > 100% black: c=1.59, m=1.60, y=1.61, v=1.59
>   >
>   > 75%:        c=1.00, m=1.00, y=0.98, v=1.00
>   >
>   > 50%:        c=0.66, m=0.65, y=0.63, v=0.66
>   >
>   > 25%:        c=0.32, m=0.32, y=0.31, v=0.32
>   >
>   > Paul
>   > http://www.PaulRoark.com
>   >
>   >
>   > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls
and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>   >
>   > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>   >
>   > Please follow these basic guidelines:
>   > - Include your full name with your message.
>   > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>   > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
> keep them short.
>   > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
> header.
>   > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> "flames."
>   > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>   > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
various
> resources on the homepage.
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>               ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
>   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>   Please follow these basic guidelines:
>   - Include your full name with your message.
>   - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>   - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
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> them short.
>   - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
>   - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> "flames."
>   - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>   - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
>
>   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Hi Martin,

We may agree on many things and of course disagree on some things.

Given the various opinions on this forum and the earlier PiezoBW forum as to
what constitutes the "ideal" print tonality etc...I don't think it would be
possible or realistic to get a group, even a group of 'respected'
photographers to agree on a single tonal set/image or look for a selenium
print.

I honestly think a "committee" approach to determining the model for the
Selenium print would have been a failure.

In my opinion, it is better to take the best print from a master printer and
do the best possible to match that one print.

Of course this is limiting to some degree, but I think it would lead to a
more accurate final result, admittedly based on a master print, versus an
averaging of some group of prints from various printers.  A case of "too
many cooks spoil the broth" so to speak.  Or put another way...avoiding
mediocrity.

Hey...if Jon Cone comes up with the "Ansel Adams Neutral Inkset" (gives
really black skies...) I think that is great too.  Or perhaps the Silver
Gelatin Inkset based on the prints of....

Of course that is just my opinion...(wINK)

Steadman

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Martin Wesley [mailto:mwesley250@...]
  Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 1:26 AM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Selenium beta


  Steadman,

  Well on that I don't agree although I think it all worked out okay. Better
  to have taken a score of selenium toned prints from various respected
  photographers and have worked up from there to something in the middle.

  In response to Jerry below, I do agree. The amount of variation in hue
among
  selenium toned silver prints is HUGE. Some papers show no color change at
  all and I have seen other that went deep, deep purple brown if they even
got
  near the toner tray. We all have our favorite papers and that choice is
  often based upon how they tone.

  I tone pretty hard and prefer Oriental paper to all others so you should
  keep that in mind if I say I like the Selenium PiezoTone ink. A lot of
  people may find it too magenta for their tastes.

  The good news is that the Selenium ink shows a great deal of difference in
  hue depending upon the paper that you chose. So even with a fixed ink hue
I
  think you will still find a good size range of final print hue available.
  There is also the possibility of using inks from the Warm Neutral or Cool
  Neutral ink sets in combination with the Selenium or by blending inks to
get
  just the color you want. Hopefully people will give this a try and share
  their results.

  Of course it would be nice to also have a variable hued selenium ink set
  available. One with a neutral black, cool Y and C with a small gamut
magenta
  toner for use with the MIS-VM workflow. (Hint, hint!!)

  Martin


  ----- Original Message -----
  From: "Steadman Uhlich" <steadmanuhlich@...>
  To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
  Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 10:43 PM
  Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Selenium beta


  > This is precisely why I respect that Jon Cone used a Selenium toned
print
  > from his mentor and master printer.  He respected Gassen's skill,
  judgement
  > and technique to the point to develop an ink based on the tones in a
  Gassen
  > print.  I think that is great.
  >
  > Regards,
  >
  > Steadman
  >   -----Original Message-----
  >   From: Jerry Olson [mailto:jerryolson@...]
  >   Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 8:21 PM
  >   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  >   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Selenium beta
  >
  >
  >   The tone of a silver print in selenium toner is very dependent on both
  >   the dilution and the length of time toned. You could get 50 different
  >   tones from selenium toner. Also it is hugely dependent on the brand of
  >   paper you are toning.  So what is the color of a selenium toned print?
  >   It really varies...
  >
  >
  >   Jerry
  >
  >   Paul Roark wrote:
  >   >
  >   > Robert Morrison wrote, in part:
  >   >
  >   > >... On EAM I would say that my general
  >   > >impression is that FS-N looks blue and Selenium
  >   > >Piezotones look ever so slightly eggplant.
  >   >
  >   > There appears to be a substantial variance in the tones that are
  > achieved by
  >   > toning silver prints with selenium -- the paper, strength of toner
and
  > time
  >   > in toner being the primary variables.  In recent years I have (or
had)
  > been
  >   > using Kodak Polymax Fine Art paper and toning in selenium 1:19 for 3
  >   > minutes.  This light toning was the usual practice, as far as I
could
  > tell,
  >   > for those who wanted better archival properties, a slight increase
in
  > Dmax,
  >   > and not a severe color change.  (Heavy selenium toning often results
  is
  > a
  >   > rather magenta print.)
  >   >
  >   > Using the X-Rite spectrophotometer to read a sample of a silver
print
  > that
  >   > was toned in selenium per this normal procedure, I get the
following:
  >   >
  >   > Dark black (not Dmax):   c=1.70, m=1.71, y=1.66, v (visual)=1.71
  >   >
  >   > Shadow tone (about 75%): c=0.99, m=1.00, y=0.99, v=1.00
  >   >
  >   > Midtone (about 50%):     c=0.59, m=0.60, y=0.59, v=0.60
  >   >
  >   > Light tone (about 25%):  c=0.33, m=0.33, y=0.32, v=0.30
  >   >
  >   > So, basically, the light tones are slightly cool, the midtones are
  > neutral
  >   > with a slight magenta cast (the slight "eggplant" tone, I would
  assume),
  > and
  >   > the deep shadows/near black tones are cool.
  >   >
  >   > It would be interesting to see how the new PiezoTone selenium values
  > look in
  >   > comparison to these.
  >   >
  >   > For comparison, an FS-N test strip on EAM, with the Piezo driver
  gives:
  >   >
  >   > 100% black: c=1.59, m=1.60, y=1.61, v=1.59
  >   >
  >   > 75%:        c=1.00, m=1.00, y=0.98, v=1.00
  >   >
  >   > 50%:        c=0.66, m=0.65, y=0.63, v=0.66
  >   >
  >   > 25%:        c=0.32, m=0.32, y=0.31, v=0.32
  >   >
  >   > Paul
  >   > http://www.PaulRoark.com
  >   >
  >   >
  >   > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls
  and
  > other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
  >   >
  >   > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
  >   >
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  > keep them short.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Steadman,

Not twenty photographers. That would be a nightmare! Group think is a
guaranteed disaster and your point is well taken. I was thinking of twenty
silent prints just to look at, measure and compare to your developing ink
set so that you fall somewhere in the middle and not off to one extreme or
the other. Seem like taking a single print from a single photographer was a
bit chancy. If you looked at my silver prints you will see a wide range just
from one photographer! I see problems with both coursed actually and in any
case it all worked out well and that is all that matters.

Other inks set would be welcome but realistically I doubt that will be
profitable. I hope the more adventurous of us will blend our own sets from
what is available to create some diversity. I guess I dread walking into a
gallery and finding everyone printed on Photo Rag with Selenium PiezoTone
ink and all the prints are the same hue. Now someone else might think that
was just great. Beauty is in the eye...

Martin Wesley

http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html



----- Original Message -----
From: "Steadman Uhlich" <steadmanuhlich@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 7:10 AM
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Selenium beta


> Hi Martin,
>
> We may agree on many things and of course disagree on some things.
>
> Given the various opinions on this forum and the earlier PiezoBW forum as
to
> what constitutes the "ideal" print tonality etc...I don't think it would
be
> possible or realistic to get a group, even a group of 'respected'
> photographers to agree on a single tonal set/image or look for a selenium
> print.
>
> I honestly think a "committee" approach to determining the model for the
> Selenium print would have been a failure.
>
> In my opinion, it is better to take the best print from a master printer
and
> do the best possible to match that one print.
>
> Of course this is limiting to some degree, but I think it would lead to a
> more accurate final result, admittedly based on a master print, versus an
> averaging of some group of prints from various printers.  A case of "too
> many cooks spoil the broth" so to speak.  Or put another way...avoiding
> mediocrity.
>
> Hey...if Jon Cone comes up with the "Ansel Adams Neutral Inkset" (gives
> really black skies...) I think that is great too.  Or perhaps the Silver
> Gelatin Inkset based on the prints of....
>
> Of course that is just my opinion...(wINK)
>
> Steadman
>   -----Original Message-----
>   From: Martin Wesley [mailto:mwesley250@...]
>   Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 1:26 AM
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Selenium beta
>
>
>   Steadman,
>
>   Well on that I don't agree although I think it all worked out okay.
Better
>   to have taken a score of selenium toned prints from various respected
>   photographers and have worked up from there to something in the middle.
>
>   In response to Jerry below, I do agree. The amount of variation in hue
> among
>   selenium toned silver prints is HUGE. Some papers show no color change
at
>   all and I have seen other that went deep, deep purple brown if they even
> got
>   near the toner tray. We all have our favorite papers and that choice is
>   often based upon how they tone.
>
>   I tone pretty hard and prefer Oriental paper to all others so you should
>   keep that in mind if I say I like the Selenium PiezoTone ink. A lot of
>   people may find it too magenta for their tastes.
>
>   The good news is that the Selenium ink shows a great deal of difference
in
>   hue depending upon the paper that you chose. So even with a fixed ink
hue
> I
>   think you will still find a good size range of final print hue
available.
>   There is also the possibility of using inks from the Warm Neutral or
Cool
>   Neutral ink sets in combination with the Selenium or by blending inks to
> get
>   just the color you want. Hopefully people will give this a try and share
>   their results.
>
>   Of course it would be nice to also have a variable hued selenium ink set
>   available. One with a neutral black, cool Y and C with a small gamut
> magenta
>   toner for use with the MIS-VM workflow. (Hint, hint!!)
>
>   Martin
>
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: "Steadman Uhlich" <steadmanuhlich@...>
>   To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
>   Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 10:43 PM
>   Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Selenium beta
>
>
>   > This is precisely why I respect that Jon Cone used a Selenium toned
> print
>   > from his mentor and master printer.  He respected Gassen's skill,
>   judgement
>   > and technique to the point to develop an ink based on the tones in a
>   Gassen
>   > print.  I think that is great.
>   >
>   > Regards,
>   >
>   > Steadman
>   >   -----Original Message-----
>   >   From: Jerry Olson [mailto:jerryolson@...]
>   >   Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 8:21 PM
>   >   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>   >   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Selenium beta
>   >
>   >
>   >   The tone of a silver print in selenium toner is very dependent on
both
>   >   the dilution and the length of time toned. You could get 50
different
>   >   tones from selenium toner. Also it is hugely dependent on the brand
of
>   >   paper you are toning.  So what is the color of a selenium toned
print?
>   >   It really varies...
>   >
>   >
>   >   Jerry
>   >
>   >   Paul Roark wrote:
>   >   >
>   >   > Robert Morrison wrote, in part:
>   >   >
>   >   > >... On EAM I would say that my general
>   >   > >impression is that FS-N looks blue and Selenium
>   >   > >Piezotones look ever so slightly eggplant.
>   >   >
>   >   > There appears to be a substantial variance in the tones that are
>   > achieved by
>   >   > toning silver prints with selenium -- the paper, strength of toner
> and
>   > time
>   >   > in toner being the primary variables.  In recent years I have (or
> had)
>   > been
>   >   > using Kodak Polymax Fine Art paper and toning in selenium 1:19 for
3
>   >   > minutes.  This light toning was the usual practice, as far as I
> could
>   > tell,
>   >   > for those who wanted better archival properties, a slight increase
> in
>   > Dmax,
>   >   > and not a severe color change.  (Heavy selenium toning often
results
>   is
>   > a
>   >   > rather magenta print.)
>   >   >
>   >   > Using the X-Rite spectrophotometer to read a sample of a silver
> print
>   > that
>   >   > was toned in selenium per this normal procedure, I get the
> following:
>   >   >
>   >   > Dark black (not Dmax):   c=1.70, m=1.71, y=1.66, v (visual)=1.71
>   >   >
>   >   > Shadow tone (about 75%): c=0.99, m=1.00, y=0.99, v=1.00
>   >   >
>   >   > Midtone (about 50%):     c=0.59, m=0.60, y=0.59, v=0.60
>   >   >
>   >   > Light tone (about 25%):  c=0.33, m=0.33, y=0.32, v=0.30
>   >   >
>   >   > So, basically, the light tones are slightly cool, the midtones are
>   > neutral
>   >   > with a slight magenta cast (the slight "eggplant" tone, I would
>   assume),
>   > and
>   >   > the deep shadows/near black tones are cool.
>   >   >
>   >   > It would be interesting to see how the new PiezoTone selenium
values
>   > look in
>   >   > comparison to these.
>   >   >
>   >   > For comparison, an FS-N test strip on EAM, with the Piezo driver
>   gives:
>   >   >
>   >   > 100% black: c=1.59, m=1.60, y=1.61, v=1.59
>   >   >
>   >   > 75%:        c=1.00, m=1.00, y=0.98, v=1.00
>   >   >
>   >   > 50%:        c=0.66, m=0.65, y=0.63, v=0.66
>   >   >
>   >   > 25%:        c=0.32, m=0.32, y=0.31, v=0.32
>   >   >
>   >   > Paul
>   >   > http://www.PaulRoark.com
>   >   >
>   >   >
>   >   > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks,
Polls
>   and
>   > other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>   >   >
>   >   > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>   >   >
>   >   > Please follow these basic guidelines:
>   >   > - Include your full name with your message.
>   >   > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>   >   > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages
> to
>   > keep them short.
>   >   > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
>   > header.
>   >   > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
>   > "flames."
>   >   > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>   >   > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
>   various
>   > resources on the homepage.
>   >   >
>   >   >
>   >   >
>   >   > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>   > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>   >
>   >         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls
> and
>   > other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>   >
>   >   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>   >
>   >   Please follow these basic guidelines:
>   >   - Include your full name with your message.
>   >   - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>   >   - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages
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>   keep
>   > them short.
>   >   - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
>   header.
>   >   - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
>   > "flames."
>   >   - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>   >   - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
> various
>   > resources on the homepage.
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls
and
>   other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>   >
>   > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>   >
>   > Please follow these basic guidelines:
>   > - Include your full name with your message.
>   > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>   > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
> keep
>   them short.
>   > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
> header.
>   > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
>   "flames."
>   > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>   > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
various
>   resources on the homepage.
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
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> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>   >
>   >
>
>
>
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>
>
>
>   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
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>   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>   Please follow these basic guidelines:
>   - Include your full name with your message.
>   - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>   - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
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> them short.
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> resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
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>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
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"flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Hey Martin,

I really think there could be some marketing niche available for the single
print look.

Imagine,

The Ansel Adams Toned Set...

The Edward Curtis Toned Set...

The Martin Wesley Toned Set...

Could be fun...collectables for a new age...

Steadman  (yeah...this post was meant to be goofy!)

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Martin Wesley [mailto:mwesley250@...]
  Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 1:13 PM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Selenium beta


  Steadman,

  Not twenty photographers. That would be a nightmare! Group think is a
  guaranteed disaster and your point is well taken. I was thinking of twenty
  silent prints just to look at, measure and compare to your developing ink
  set so that you fall somewhere in the middle and not off to one extreme or
  the other. Seem like taking a single print from a single photographer was
a
  bit chancy. If you looked at my silver prints you will see a wide range
just
  from one photographer! I see problems with both coursed actually and in
any
  case it all worked out well and that is all that matters.

  Other inks set would be welcome but realistically I doubt that will be
  profitable. I hope the more adventurous of us will blend our own sets from
  what is available to create some diversity. I guess I dread walking into a
  gallery and finding everyone printed on Photo Rag with Selenium PiezoTone
  ink and all the prints are the same hue. Now someone else might think that
  was just great. Beauty is in the eye...

  Martin Wesley

  http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html



  ----- Original Message -----
  From: "Steadman Uhlich" <steadmanuhlich@...>
  To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
  Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 7:10 AM
  Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Selenium beta


  > Hi Martin,
  >
  > We may agree on many things and of course disagree on some things.
  >
  > Given the various opinions on this forum and the earlier PiezoBW forum
as
  to
  > what constitutes the "ideal" print tonality etc...I don't think it would
  be
  > possible or realistic to get a group, even a group of 'respected'
  > photographers to agree on a single tonal set/image or look for a
selenium
  > print.
  >
  > I honestly think a "committee" approach to determining the model for the
  > Selenium print would have been a failure.
  >
  > In my opinion, it is better to take the best print from a master printer
  and
  > do the best possible to match that one print.
  >
  > Of course this is limiting to some degree, but I think it would lead to
a
  > more accurate final result, admittedly based on a master print, versus
an
  > averaging of some group of prints from various printers.  A case of "too
  > many cooks spoil the broth" so to speak.  Or put another way...avoiding
  > mediocrity.
  >
  > Hey...if Jon Cone comes up with the "Ansel Adams Neutral Inkset" (gives
  > really black skies...) I think that is great too.  Or perhaps the Silver
  > Gelatin Inkset based on the prints of....
  >
  > Of course that is just my opinion...(wINK)
  >
  > Steadman
  >   -----Original Message-----
  >   From: Martin Wesley [mailto:mwesley250@...]
  >   Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 1:26 AM
  >   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  >   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Selenium beta
  >
  >
  >   Steadman,
  >
  >   Well on that I don't agree although I think it all worked out okay.
  Better
  >   to have taken a score of selenium toned prints from various respected
  >   photographers and have worked up from there to something in the
middle.
  >
  >   In response to Jerry below, I do agree. The amount of variation in hue
  > among
  >   selenium toned silver prints is HUGE. Some papers show no color change
  at
  >   all and I have seen other that went deep, deep purple brown if they
even
  > got
  >   near the toner tray. We all have our favorite papers and that choice
is
  >   often based upon how they tone.
  >
  >   I tone pretty hard and prefer Oriental paper to all others so you
should
  >   keep that in mind if I say I like the Selenium PiezoTone ink. A lot of
  >   people may find it too magenta for their tastes.
  >
  >   The good news is that the Selenium ink shows a great deal of
difference
  in
  >   hue depending upon the paper that you chose. So even with a fixed ink
  hue
  > I
  >   think you will still find a good size range of final print hue
  available.
  >   There is also the possibility of using inks from the Warm Neutral or
  Cool
  >   Neutral ink sets in combination with the Selenium or by blending inks
to
  > get
  >   just the color you want. Hopefully people will give this a try and
share
  >   their results.
  >
  >   Of course it would be nice to also have a variable hued selenium ink
set
  >   available. One with a neutral black, cool Y and C with a small gamut
  > magenta
  >   toner for use with the MIS-VM workflow. (Hint, hint!!)
  >
  >   Martin
  >
  >
  >   ----- Original Message -----
  >   From: "Steadman Uhlich" <steadmanuhlich@...>
  >   To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
  >   Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 10:43 PM
  >   Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Selenium beta
  >
  >
  >   > This is precisely why I respect that Jon Cone used a Selenium toned
  > print
  >   > from his mentor and master printer.  He respected Gassen's skill,
  >   judgement
  >   > and technique to the point to develop an ink based on the tones in a
  >   Gassen
  >   > print.  I think that is great.
  >   >
  >   > Regards,
  >   >
  >   > Steadman
  >   >   -----Original Message-----
  >   >   From: Jerry Olson [mailto:jerryolson@...]
  >   >   Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 8:21 PM
  >   >   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  >   >   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Selenium beta
  >   >
  >   >
  >   >   The tone of a silver print in selenium toner is very dependent on
  both
  >   >   the dilution and the length of time toned. You could get 50
  different
  >   >   tones from selenium toner. Also it is hugely dependent on the
brand
  of
  >   >   paper you are toning.  So what is the color of a selenium toned
  print?
  >   >   It really varies...
  >   >
  >   >
  >   >   Jerry
  >   >
  >   >   Paul Roark wrote:
  >   >   >
  >   >   > Robert Morrison wrote, in part:
  >   >   >
  >   >   > >... On EAM I would say that my general
  >   >   > >impression is that FS-N looks blue and Selenium
  >   >   > >Piezotones look ever so slightly eggplant.
  >   >   >
  >   >   > There appears to be a substantial variance in the tones that are
  >   > achieved by
  >   >   > toning silver prints with selenium -- the paper, strength of
toner
  > and
  >   > time
  >   >   > in toner being the primary variables.  In recent years I have
(or
  > had)
  >   > been
  >   >   > using Kodak Polymax Fine Art paper and toning in selenium 1:19
for
  3
  >   >   > minutes.  This light toning was the usual practice, as far as I
  > could
  >   > tell,
  >   >   > for those who wanted better archival properties, a slight
increase
  > in
  >   > Dmax,
  >   >   > and not a severe color change.  (Heavy selenium toning often
  results
  >   is
  >   > a
  >   >   > rather magenta print.)
  >   >   >
  >   >   > Using the X-Rite spectrophotometer to read a sample of a silver
  > print
  >   > that
  >   >   > was toned in selenium per this normal procedure, I get the
  > following:
  >   >   >
  >   >   > Dark black (not Dmax):   c=1.70, m=1.71, y=1.66, v (visual)=1.71
  >   >   >
  >   >   > Shadow tone (about 75%): c=0.99, m=1.00, y=0.99, v=1.00
  >   >   >
  >   >   > Midtone (about 50%):     c=0.59, m=0.60, y=0.59, v=0.60
  >   >   >
  >   >   > Light tone (about 25%):  c=0.33, m=0.33, y=0.32, v=0.30
  >   >   >
  >   >   > So, basically, the light tones are slightly cool, the midtones
are
  >   > neutral
  >   >   > with a slight magenta cast (the slight "eggplant" tone, I would
  >   assume),
  >   > and
  >   >   > the deep shadows/near black tones are cool.
  >   >   >
  >   >   > It would be interesting to see how the new PiezoTone selenium
  values
  >   > look in
  >   >   > comparison to these.
  >   >   >
  >   >   > For comparison, an FS-N test strip on EAM, with the Piezo driver
  >   gives:
  >   >   >
  >   >   > 100% black: c=1.59, m=1.60, y=1.61, v=1.59
  >   >   >
  >   >   > 75%:        c=1.00, m=1.00, y=0.98, v=1.00
  >   >   >
  >   >   > 50%:        c=0.66, m=0.65, y=0.63, v=0.66
  >   >   >
  >   >   > 25%:        c=0.32, m=0.32, y=0.31, v=0.32
  >   >   >
  >   >   > Paul
  >   >   > http://www.PaulRoark.com
  >   >   >
  >   >   >
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  Polls
  >   and
  >   > other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

If you think this is goofy...

Consider that there are fonts made for use by typographers that are made
based on the handwriting of Leonardo DaVinci, Edward Hopper, Cezanne, etc...

Some of them are really cooool too.  I like Hopper's wifes handwriting
better though...

Steadman

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Steadman Uhlich [mailto:steadmanuhlich@...]
  Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 1:21 PM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Selenium beta


  Hey Martin,

  I really think there could be some marketing niche available for the
single
  print look.

  Imagine,

  The Ansel Adams Toned Set...

  The Edward Curtis Toned Set...

  The Martin Wesley Toned Set...

  Could be fun...collectables for a new age...

  Steadman  (yeah...this post was meant to be goofy!)
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Martin Wesley [mailto:mwesley250@...]
    Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 1:13 PM
    To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Selenium beta


    Steadman,

    Not twenty photographers. That would be a nightmare! Group think is a
    guaranteed disaster and your point is well taken. I was thinking of
twenty
    silent prints just to look at, measure and compare to your developing
ink
    set so that you fall somewhere in the middle and not off to one extreme
or
    the other. Seem like taking a single print from a single photographer
was
  a
    bit chancy. If you looked at my silver prints you will see a wide range
  just
    from one photographer! I see problems with both coursed actually and in
  any
    case it all worked out well and that is all that matters.

    Other inks set would be welcome but realistically I doubt that will be
    profitable. I hope the more adventurous of us will blend our own sets
from
    what is available to create some diversity. I guess I dread walking into
a
    gallery and finding everyone printed on Photo Rag with Selenium
PiezoTone
    ink and all the prints are the same hue. Now someone else might think
that
    was just great. Beauty is in the eye...

    Martin Wesley

    http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html



    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Steadman Uhlich" <steadmanuhlich@...>
    To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
    Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 7:10 AM
    Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Selenium beta


    > Hi Martin,
    >
    > We may agree on many things and of course disagree on some things.
    >
    > Given the various opinions on this forum and the earlier PiezoBW forum
  as
    to
    > what constitutes the "ideal" print tonality etc...I don't think it
would
    be
    > possible or realistic to get a group, even a group of 'respected'
    > photographers to agree on a single tonal set/image or look for a
  selenium
    > print.
    >
    > I honestly think a "committee" approach to determining the model for
the
    > Selenium print would have been a failure.
    >
    > In my opinion, it is better to take the best print from a master
printer
    and
    > do the best possible to match that one print.
    >
    > Of course this is limiting to some degree, but I think it would lead
to
  a
    > more accurate final result, admittedly based on a master print, versus
  an
    > averaging of some group of prints from various printers.  A case of
"too
    > many cooks spoil the broth" so to speak.  Or put another
way...avoiding
    > mediocrity.
    >
    > Hey...if Jon Cone comes up with the "Ansel Adams Neutral Inkset"
(gives
    > really black skies...) I think that is great too.  Or perhaps the
Silver
    > Gelatin Inkset based on the prints of....
    >
    > Of course that is just my opinion...(wINK)
    >
    > Steadman
    >   -----Original Message-----
    >   From: Martin Wesley [mailto:mwesley250@...]
    >   Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 1:26 AM
    >   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
    >   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Selenium beta
    >
    >
    >   Steadman,
    >
    >   Well on that I don't agree although I think it all worked out okay.
    Better
    >   to have taken a score of selenium toned prints from various
respected
    >   photographers and have worked up from there to something in the
  middle.
    >
    >   In response to Jerry below, I do agree. The amount of variation in
hue
    > among
    >   selenium toned silver prints is HUGE. Some papers show no color
change
    at
    >   all and I have seen other that went deep, deep purple brown if they
  even
    > got
    >   near the toner tray. We all have our favorite papers and that choice
  is
    >   often based upon how they tone.
    >
    >   I tone pretty hard and prefer Oriental paper to all others so you
  should
    >   keep that in mind if I say I like the Selenium PiezoTone ink. A lot
of
    >   people may find it too magenta for their tastes.
    >
    >   The good news is that the Selenium ink shows a great deal of
  difference
    in
    >   hue depending upon the paper that you chose. So even with a fixed
ink
    hue
    > I
    >   think you will still find a good size range of final print hue
    available.
    >   There is also the possibility of using inks from the Warm Neutral or
    Cool
    >   Neutral ink sets in combination with the Selenium or by blending
inks
  to
    > get
    >   just the color you want. Hopefully people will give this a try and
  share
    >   their results.
    >
    >   Of course it would be nice to also have a variable hued selenium ink
  set
    >   available. One with a neutral black, cool Y and C with a small gamut
    > magenta
    >   toner for use with the MIS-VM workflow. (Hint, hint!!)
    >
    >   Martin
    >
    >
    >   ----- Original Message -----
    >   From: "Steadman Uhlich" <steadmanuhlich@...>
    >   To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
    >   Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 10:43 PM
    >   Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Selenium beta
    >
    >
    >   > This is precisely why I respect that Jon Cone used a Selenium
toned
    > print
    >   > from his mentor and master printer.  He respected Gassen's skill,
    >   judgement
    >   > and technique to the point to develop an ink based on the tones in
a
    >   Gassen
    >   > print.  I think that is great.
    >   >
    >   > Regards,
    >   >
    >   > Steadman
    >   >   -----Original Message-----
    >   >   From: Jerry Olson [mailto:jerryolson@...]
    >   >   Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 8:21 PM
    >   >   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
    >   >   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Selenium beta
    >   >
    >   >
    >   >   The tone of a silver print in selenium toner is very dependent
on
    both
    >   >   the dilution and the length of time toned. You could get 50
    different
    >   >   tones from selenium toner. Also it is hugely dependent on the
  brand
    of
    >   >   paper you are toning.  So what is the color of a selenium toned
    print?
    >   >   It really varies...
    >   >
    >   >
    >   >   Jerry
    >   >
    >   >   Paul Roark wrote:
    >   >   >
    >   >   > Robert Morrison wrote, in part:
    >   >   >
    >   >   > >... On EAM I would say that my general
    >   >   > >impression is that FS-N looks blue and Selenium
    >   >   > >Piezotones look ever so slightly eggplant.
    >   >   >
    >   >   > There appears to be a substantial variance in the tones that
are
    >   > achieved by
    >   >   > toning silver prints with selenium -- the paper, strength of
  toner
    > and
    >   > time
    >   >   > in toner being the primary variables.  In recent years I have
  (or
    > had)
    >   > been
    >   >   > using Kodak Polymax Fine Art paper and toning in selenium 1:19
  for
    3
    >   >   > minutes.  This light toning was the usual practice, as far as
I
    > could
    >   > tell,
    >   >   > for those who wanted better archival properties, a slight
  increase
    > in
    >   > Dmax,
    >   >   > and not a severe color change.  (Heavy selenium toning often
    results
    >   is
    >   > a
    >   >   > rather magenta print.)
    >   >   >
    >   >   > Using the X-Rite spectrophotometer to read a sample of a
silver
    > print
    >   > that
    >   >   > was toned in selenium per this normal procedure, I get the
    > following:
    >   >   >
    >   >   > Dark black (not Dmax):   c=1.70, m=1.71, y=1.66, v
(visual)=1.71
    >   >   >
    >   >   > Shadow tone (about 75%): c=0.99, m=1.00, y=0.99, v=1.00
    >   >   >
    >   >   > Midtone (about 50%):     c=0.59, m=0.60, y=0.59, v=0.60
    >   >   >
    >   >   > Light tone (about 25%):  c=0.33, m=0.33, y=0.32, v=0.30
    >   >   >
    >   >   > So, basically, the light tones are slightly cool, the midtones
  are
    >   > neutral
    >   >   > with a slight magenta cast (the slight "eggplant" tone, I
would
    >   assume),
    >   > and
    >   >   > the deep shadows/near black tones are cool.
    >   >   >
    >   >   > It would be interesting to see how the new PiezoTone selenium
    values
    >   > look in
    >   >   > comparison to these.
    >   >   >
    >   >   > For comparison, an FS-N test strip on EAM, with the Piezo
driver
    >   gives:
    >   >   >
    >   >   > 100% black: c=1.59, m=1.60, y=1.61, v=1.59
    >   >   >
    >   >   > 75%:        c=1.00, m=1.00, y=0.98, v=1.00
    >   >   >
    >   >   > 50%:        c=0.66, m=0.65, y=0.63, v=0.66
    >   >   >
    >   >   > 25%:        c=0.32, m=0.32, y=0.31, v=0.32
    >   >   >
    >   >   > Paul
    >   >   > http://www.PaulRoark.com
    >   >   >
    >   >   >
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    Polls
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Steadman,

Actually I don't think it is goofy at all. Awhile back the magazine "Photo
Techniques" (?)listed all of the silver papers available and I counted over
90! If there is a market for that many different silver papers I suspect the
inkjet market has the potential to support a number of ink sets.

A variable tone ink set and software solution still has great merit in that
you can customize your tone without having to change inks. There is a lot to
be said for the Lysonic E approach to B&W and I wish ConeTech and/or MIS
would do something like this with pigment inks.

A 6 channel RIP with K, 2 grays and three small gamut C,M, Y toners along
with a user friendly software package would be ideal. I think this could be
done with today's technology but the economics would be difficult.

Martin Wesley

http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html



----- Original Message -----
From: "Steadman Uhlich" <steadmanuhlich@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 11:22 AM
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Selenium beta


> If you think this is goofy...
>
> Consider that there are fonts made for use by typographers that are made
> based on the handwriting of Leonardo DaVinci, Edward Hopper, Cezanne,
etc...
>
> Some of them are really cooool too.  I like Hopper's wifes handwriting
> better though...
>
> Steadman
>   -----Original Message-----
>   From: Steadman Uhlich [mailto:steadmanuhlich@...]
>   Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 1:21 PM
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>   Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Selenium beta
>
>
>   Hey Martin,
>
>   I really think there could be some marketing niche available for the
> single
>   print look.
>
>   Imagine,
>
>   The Ansel Adams Toned Set...
>
>   The Edward Curtis Toned Set...
>
>   The Martin Wesley Toned Set...
>
>   Could be fun...collectables for a new age...
>
>   Steadman  (yeah...this post was meant to be goofy!)
>     -----Original Message-----
>     From: Martin Wesley [mailto:mwesley250@...]
>     Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 1:13 PM
>     To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>     Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Selenium beta
>
>
>     Steadman,
>
>     Not twenty photographers. That would be a nightmare! Group think is a
>     guaranteed disaster and your point is well taken. I was thinking of
> twenty
>     silent prints just to look at, measure and compare to your developing
> ink
>     set so that you fall somewhere in the middle and not off to one
extreme
> or
>     the other. Seem like taking a single print from a single photographer
> was
>   a
>     bit chancy. If you looked at my silver prints you will see a wide
range
>   just
>     from one photographer! I see problems with both coursed actually and
in
>   any
>     case it all worked out well and that is all that matters.
>
>     Other inks set would be welcome but realistically I doubt that will be
>     profitable. I hope the more adventurous of us will blend our own sets
> from
>     what is available to create some diversity. I guess I dread walking
into
> a
>     gallery and finding everyone printed on Photo Rag with Selenium
> PiezoTone
>     ink and all the prints are the same hue. Now someone else might think
> that
>     was just great. Beauty is in the eye...
>
>     Martin Wesley
>
>     http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html
>
>
>
>     ----- Original Message -----
>     From: "Steadman Uhlich" <steadmanuhlich@...>
>     To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
>     Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 7:10 AM
>     Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Selenium beta
>
>
>     > Hi Martin,
>     >
>     > We may agree on many things and of course disagree on some things.
>     >
>     > Given the various opinions on this forum and the earlier PiezoBW
forum
>   as
>     to
>     > what constitutes the "ideal" print tonality etc...I don't think it
> would
>     be
>     > possible or realistic to get a group, even a group of 'respected'
>     > photographers to agree on a single tonal set/image or look for a
>   selenium
>     > print.
>     >
>     > I honestly think a "committee" approach to determining the model for
> the
>     > Selenium print would have been a failure.
>     >
>     > In my opinion, it is better to take the best print from a master
> printer
>     and
>     > do the best possible to match that one print.
>     >
>     > Of course this is limiting to some degree, but I think it would lead
> to
>   a
>     > more accurate final result, admittedly based on a master print,
versus
>   an
>     > averaging of some group of prints from various printers.  A case of
> "too
>     > many cooks spoil the broth" so to speak.  Or put another
> way...avoiding
>     > mediocrity.
>     >
>     > Hey...if Jon Cone comes up with the "Ansel Adams Neutral Inkset"
> (gives
>     > really black skies...) I think that is great too.  Or perhaps the
> Silver
>     > Gelatin Inkset based on the prints of....
>     >
>     > Of course that is just my opinion...(wINK)
>     >
>     > Steadman
>     >   -----Original Message-----
>     >   From: Martin Wesley [mailto:mwesley250@...]
>     >   Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 1:26 AM
>     >   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>     >   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Selenium beta
>     >
>     >
>     >   Steadman,
>     >
>     >   Well on that I don't agree although I think it all worked out
okay.
>     Better
>     >   to have taken a score of selenium toned prints from various
> respected
>     >   photographers and have worked up from there to something in the
>   middle.
>     >
>     >   In response to Jerry below, I do agree. The amount of variation in
> hue
>     > among
>     >   selenium toned silver prints is HUGE. Some papers show no color
> change
>     at
>     >   all and I have seen other that went deep, deep purple brown if
they
>   even
>     > got
>     >   near the toner tray. We all have our favorite papers and that
choice
>   is
>     >   often based upon how they tone.
>     >
>     >   I tone pretty hard and prefer Oriental paper to all others so you
>   should
>     >   keep that in mind if I say I like the Selenium PiezoTone ink. A
lot
> of
>     >   people may find it too magenta for their tastes.
>     >
>     >   The good news is that the Selenium ink shows a great deal of
>   difference
>     in
>     >   hue depending upon the paper that you chose. So even with a fixed
> ink
>     hue
>     > I
>     >   think you will still find a good size range of final print hue
>     available.
>     >   There is also the possibility of using inks from the Warm Neutral
or
>     Cool
>     >   Neutral ink sets in combination with the Selenium or by blending
> inks
>   to
>     > get
>     >   just the color you want. Hopefully people will give this a try and
>   share
>     >   their results.
>     >
>     >   Of course it would be nice to also have a variable hued selenium
ink
>   set
>     >   available. One with a neutral black, cool Y and C with a small
gamut
>     > magenta
>     >   toner for use with the MIS-VM workflow. (Hint, hint!!)
>     >
>     >   Martin
>     >
>     >
>     >   ----- Original Message -----
>     >   From: "Steadman Uhlich" <steadmanuhlich@...>
>     >   To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
>     >   Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 10:43 PM
>     >   Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Selenium beta
>     >
>     >
>     >   > This is precisely why I respect that Jon Cone used a Selenium
> toned
>     > print
>     >   > from his mentor and master printer.  He respected Gassen's
skill,
>     >   judgement
>     >   > and technique to the point to develop an ink based on the tones
in
> a
>     >   Gassen
>     >   > print.  I think that is great.
>     >   >
>     >   > Regards,
>     >   >
>     >   > Steadman
>     >   >   -----Original Message-----
>     >   >   From: Jerry Olson [mailto:jerryolson@...]
>     >   >   Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 8:21 PM
>     >   >   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>     >   >   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Selenium beta
>     >   >
>     >   >
>     >   >   The tone of a silver print in selenium toner is very dependent
> on
>     both
>     >   >   the dilution and the length of time toned. You could get 50
>     different
>     >   >   tones from selenium toner. Also it is hugely dependent on the
>   brand
>     of
>     >   >   paper you are toning.  So what is the color of a selenium
toned
>     print?
>     >   >   It really varies...
>     >   >
>     >   >
>     >   >   Jerry
>     >   >
>     >   >   Paul Roark wrote:
>     >   >   >
>     >   >   > Robert Morrison wrote, in part:
>     >   >   >
>     >   >   > >... On EAM I would say that my general
>     >   >   > >impression is that FS-N looks blue and Selenium
>     >   >   > >Piezotones look ever so slightly eggplant.
>     >   >   >
>     >   >   > There appears to be a substantial variance in the tones that
> are
>     >   > achieved by
>     >   >   > toning silver prints with selenium -- the paper, strength of
>   toner
>     > and
>     >   > time
>     >   >   > in toner being the primary variables.  In recent years I
have
>   (or
>     > had)
>     >   > been
>     >   >   > using Kodak Polymax Fine Art paper and toning in selenium
1:19
>   for
>     3
>     >   >   > minutes.  This light toning was the usual practice, as far
as
> I
>     > could
>     >   > tell,
>     >   >   > for those who wanted better archival properties, a slight
>   increase
>     > in
>     >   > Dmax,
>     >   >   > and not a severe color change.  (Heavy selenium toning often
>     results
>     >   is
>     >   > a
>     >   >   > rather magenta print.)
>     >   >   >
>     >   >   > Using the X-Rite spectrophotometer to read a sample of a
> silver
>     > print
>     >   > that
>     >   >   > was toned in selenium per this normal procedure, I get the
>     > following:
>     >   >   >
>     >   >   > Dark black (not Dmax):   c=1.70, m=1.71, y=1.66, v
> (visual)=1.71
>     >   >   >
>     >   >   > Shadow tone (about 75%): c=0.99, m=1.00, y=0.99, v=1.00
>     >   >   >
>     >   >   > Midtone (about 50%):     c=0.59, m=0.60, y=0.59, v=0.60
>     >   >   >
>     >   >   > Light tone (about 25%):  c=0.33, m=0.33, y=0.32, v=0.30
>     >   >   >
>     >   >   > So, basically, the light tones are slightly cool, the
midtones
>   are
>     >   > neutral
>     >   >   > with a slight magenta cast (the slight "eggplant" tone, I
> would
>     >   assume),
>     >   > and
>     >   >   > the deep shadows/near black tones are cool.
>     >   >   >
>     >   >   > It would be interesting to see how the new PiezoTone
selenium
>     values
>     >   > look in
>     >   >   > comparison to these.
>     >   >   >
>     >   >   > For comparison, an FS-N test strip on EAM, with the Piezo
> driver
>     >   gives:
>     >   >   >
>     >   >   > 100% black: c=1.59, m=1.60, y=1.61, v=1.59
>     >   >   >
>     >   >   > 75%:        c=1.00, m=1.00, y=0.98, v=1.00
>     >   >   >
>     >   >   > 50%:        c=0.66, m=0.65, y=0.63, v=0.66
>     >   >   >
>     >   >   > 25%:        c=0.32, m=0.32, y=0.31, v=0.32
>     >   >   >
>     >   >   > Paul
>     >   >   > http://www.PaulRoark.com
>     >   >   >
>     >   >   >
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Some input and suggestions from those who have more experience than
this newbie would be appreciated:

I have only started about a month ago in digital quadtone printing
using an 1160 and MIS FS carts. After a few hiccups I've got things
going pretty well and I like my prints so far. A couple of weeks ago I
took advantage of the sale at inkjetgoodies and got myself 4oz.
bottles of the MIS FS in anticipation of cleaning out and setting up a
used Niagara CIS I have. Since then I decided to just get a new CIS
and bought a CFS from MIS. Lately, starting to think the MIS FS is a
little bit warm, I bought this MIS CFS with their FS-N inks (4 oz.).

So now I have a new MIS CFS that I still have not hooked up (my last
MIS FS carts still not empty) but I'm now having a quandary. After
reading some of the reviews of the new PiezoTone Selinium inks and
seeing how people are comparing them to other ink some mentioned that
perhaps the MIS FS-N ink is a little too blue. Now I usually prefer
slightly warmer to too blue but I bought the MIS FS-N inks thinking
they were neutral, not blue. Can anyone comment a bit on this? I
imagine I'll want to try the Cone selenium inks some time down the
road but as of now having these two sets of inks already that will be
much later.

And since I now have two sets of new 4 oz. bottles (one FS, one FS-N)
should I even consider perhaps doing some mixing of the two to get a
better balance of too warm and too blue? Or since I'm a newbie maybe I
should just use the MIS FS-N straight to see what I personally think
of it's tone, then I'll know more of the characteristics of the FS vs.
the FS-N and perhaps get fancy later?  Anyone ever try mixing these
two?

Any thoughts or suggestions welcomed.  Thanks.

Best regards,
 Richard  

mailto:richard@...

Richard,

Read Paul Roark's description (elsewhere in this forum) of the FS-N 
inks, with color densitometric data. They are definitely not too 
blue. These inks are closer to dead-on neutral than any other ink 
sets I have used. They are certainly cooler than the regular FS, the 
orginal Piezo, and the new PiezoTone Warm Neutral (a contadiction in 
terms? How can something be "warm neutral"? It is either warm or it 
is neutral). It seems like many people have their own visual 
definition of "neutral". It is therefore all a matter of preference.

Truth is, you have to actually see the same image printed with the 
various inks to find your own personal preference. It is a good idea 
to participate in print exchanges to see results from various 
inks/work flows for yourself. In doing so, I have found that many 
comments made for a  number of ink/paper/workflow do not exactly 
match up to the actual prints.

This may seem daunting. But with the right attitude, it is a lot of 
fun.

Good luck.

Shilesh

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Richard Sintchak 
<richard@c...> wrote:
> Some input and suggestions from those who have more experience than
> this newbie would be appreciated:
> 
> I have only started about a month ago in digital quadtone printing
> using an 1160 and MIS FS carts. After a few hiccups I've got things
> going pretty well and I like my prints so far. A couple of weeks 
ago I
> took advantage of the sale at inkjetgoodies and got myself 4oz.
> bottles of the MIS FS in anticipation of cleaning out and setting 
up a
> used Niagara CIS I have. Since then I decided to just get a new CIS
> and bought a CFS from MIS. Lately, starting to think the MIS FS is a
> little bit warm, I bought this MIS CFS with their FS-N inks (4 oz.).
> 
> So now I have a new MIS CFS that I still have not hooked up (my last
> MIS FS carts still not empty) but I'm now having a quandary. After
> reading some of the reviews of the new PiezoTone Selinium inks and
> seeing how people are comparing them to other ink some mentioned 
that
> perhaps the MIS FS-N ink is a little too blue. Now I usually prefer
> slightly warmer to too blue but I bought the MIS FS-N inks thinking
> they were neutral, not blue. Can anyone comment a bit on this? I
> imagine I'll want to try the Cone selenium inks some time down the
> road but as of now having these two sets of inks already that will 
be
> much later.
> 
> And since I now have two sets of new 4 oz. bottles (one FS, one FS-
N)
> should I even consider perhaps doing some mixing of the two to get a
> better balance of too warm and too blue? Or since I'm a newbie 
maybe I
> should just use the MIS FS-N straight to see what I personally think
> of it's tone, then I'll know more of the characteristics of the FS 
vs.

> the FS-N and perhaps get fancy later?  Anyone ever try mixing these
> two?
> 
> Any thoughts or suggestions welcomed.  Thanks.
> 
> Best regards,
>  Richard  
> 
> mailto:richard@c...

Richard,

I am on the exact same path as you.  Recently I have purchased 
an Epson 1160, the Piezo software and am looking into which 
inks and CFS to get.  After checking prices and reading posts, 
I've decided to go with the MIS FS inks as well and have the 
same question as yourself.  I am also trying to figure out which 
continuous inking system to get.  Do you like the MIS CFS 
system?  Any problems with it?  How does it compare to the No 
More Carts system or the Niagara systems?  Thanks!

Andy





--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Richard Sintchak <
richard@c...> wrote:
> Some input and suggestions from those who have more 
experience than
> this newbie would be appreciated:
> 
> I have only started about a month ago in digital quadtone 
printing
> using an 1160 and MIS FS carts. After a few hiccups I've got 
things
> going pretty well and I like my prints so far. A couple of weeks 
ago I
> took advantage of the sale at inkjetgoodies and got myself 4oz.
> bottles of the MIS FS in anticipation of cleaning out and setting 
up a
> used Niagara CIS I have. Since then I decided to just get a new 
CIS
> and bought a CFS from MIS. Lately, starting to think the MIS FS 
is a
> little bit warm, I bought this MIS CFS with their FS-N inks (4 
oz.).
> 
> So now I have a new MIS CFS that I still have not hooked up 
(my last
> MIS FS carts still not empty) but I'm now having a quandary. 
After
> reading some of the reviews of the new PiezoTone Selinium 
inks and
> seeing how people are comparing them to other ink some 
mentioned that
> perhaps the MIS FS-N ink is a little too blue. Now I usually 
prefer
> slightly warmer to too blue but I bought the MIS FS-N inks 
thinking
> they were neutral, not blue. Can anyone comment a bit on 
this? I
> imagine I'll want to try the Cone selenium inks some time 
down the
> road but as of now having these two sets of inks already that 
will be
> much later.
> 
> And since I now have two sets of new 4 oz. bottles (one FS, 
one FS-N)
> should I even consider perhaps doing some mixing of the two 
to get a
> better balance of too warm and too blue? Or since I'm a 
newbie maybe I
> should just use the MIS FS-N straight to see what I personally 
think
> of it's tone, then I'll know more of the characteristics of the FS 
vs.
> the FS-N and perhaps get fancy later?  Anyone ever try mixing 
these

> two?
> 
> Any thoughts or suggestions welcomed.  Thanks.
> 
> Best regards,
>  Richard  
> 
> mailto:richard@c...