Steadman, Actually I don't think it is goofy at all. Awhile back the magazine "Photo Techniques" (?)listed all of the silver papers available and I counted over 90! If there is a market for that many different silver papers I suspect the inkjet market has the potential to support a number of ink sets. A variable tone ink set and software solution still has great merit in that you can customize your tone without having to change inks. There is a lot to be said for the Lysonic E approach to B&W and I wish ConeTech and/or MIS would do something like this with pigment inks. A 6 channel RIP with K, 2 grays and three small gamut C,M, Y toners along with a user friendly software package would be ideal. I think this could be done with today's technology but the economics would be difficult. Martin Wesley http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steadman Uhlich" <steadmanuhlich@...> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 11:22 AM Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Selenium beta > If you think this is goofy... > > Consider that there are fonts made for use by typographers that are made > based on the handwriting of Leonardo DaVinci, Edward Hopper, Cezanne, etc... > > Some of them are really cooool too. I like Hopper's wifes handwriting > better though... > > Steadman > -----Original Message----- > From: Steadman Uhlich [mailto:steadmanuhlich@...] > Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 1:21 PM > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Selenium beta > > > Hey Martin, > > I really think there could be some marketing niche available for the > single > print look. > > Imagine, > > The Ansel Adams Toned Set... > > The Edward Curtis Toned Set... > > The Martin Wesley Toned Set... > > Could be fun...collectables for a new age... > > Steadman (yeah...this post was meant to be goofy!) > -----Original Message----- > From: Martin Wesley [mailto:mwesley250@...] > Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 1:13 PM > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Selenium beta > > > Steadman, > > Not twenty photographers. That would be a nightmare! Group think is a > guaranteed disaster and your point is well taken. I was thinking of > twenty > silent prints just to look at, measure and compare to your developing > ink > set so that you fall somewhere in the middle and not off to one extreme > or > the other. Seem like taking a single print from a single photographer > was > a > bit chancy. If you looked at my silver prints you will see a wide range > just > from one photographer! I see problems with both coursed actually and in > any > case it all worked out well and that is all that matters. > > Other inks set would be welcome but realistically I doubt that will be > profitable. I hope the more adventurous of us will blend our own sets > from > what is available to create some diversity. I guess I dread walking into > a > gallery and finding everyone printed on Photo Rag with Selenium > PiezoTone > ink and all the prints are the same hue. Now someone else might think > that > was just great. Beauty is in the eye... > > Martin Wesley > > http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steadman Uhlich" <steadmanuhlich@...> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 7:10 AM > Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Selenium beta > > > > Hi Martin, > > > > We may agree on many things and of course disagree on some things. > > > > Given the various opinions on this forum and the earlier PiezoBW forum > as > to > > what constitutes the "ideal" print tonality etc...I don't think it > would > be > > possible or realistic to get a group, even a group of 'respected' > > photographers to agree on a single tonal set/image or look for a > selenium > > print. > > > > I honestly think a "committee" approach to determining the model for > the > > Selenium print would have been a failure. > > > > In my opinion, it is better to take the best print from a master > printer > and > > do the best possible to match that one print. > > > > Of course this is limiting to some degree, but I think it would lead > to > a > > more accurate final result, admittedly based on a master print, versus > an > > averaging of some group of prints from various printers. A case of > "too > > many cooks spoil the broth" so to speak. Or put another > way...avoiding > > mediocrity. > > > > Hey...if Jon Cone comes up with the "Ansel Adams Neutral Inkset" > (gives > > really black skies...) I think that is great too. Or perhaps the > Silver > > Gelatin Inkset based on the prints of.... > > > > Of course that is just my opinion...(wINK) > > > > Steadman > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Martin Wesley [mailto:mwesley250@...] > > Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 1:26 AM > > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Selenium beta > > > > > > Steadman, > > > > Well on that I don't agree although I think it all worked out okay. > Better > > to have taken a score of selenium toned prints from various > respected > > photographers and have worked up from there to something in the > middle. > > > > In response to Jerry below, I do agree. The amount of variation in > hue > > among > > selenium toned silver prints is HUGE. Some papers show no color > change > at > > all and I have seen other that went deep, deep purple brown if they > even > > got > > near the toner tray. We all have our favorite papers and that choice > is > > often based upon how they tone. > > > > I tone pretty hard and prefer Oriental paper to all others so you > should > > keep that in mind if I say I like the Selenium PiezoTone ink. A lot > of > > people may find it too magenta for their tastes. > > > > The good news is that the Selenium ink shows a great deal of > difference > in > > hue depending upon the paper that you chose. So even with a fixed > ink > hue > > I > > think you will still find a good size range of final print hue > available. > > There is also the possibility of using inks from the Warm Neutral or > Cool > > Neutral ink sets in combination with the Selenium or by blending > inks > to > > get > > just the color you want. Hopefully people will give this a try and > share > > their results. > > > > Of course it would be nice to also have a variable hued selenium ink > set > > available. One with a neutral black, cool Y and C with a small gamut > > magenta > > toner for use with the MIS-VM workflow. (Hint, hint!!) > > > > Martin > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Steadman Uhlich" <steadmanuhlich@...> > > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 10:43 PM > > Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Selenium beta > > > > > > > This is precisely why I respect that Jon Cone used a Selenium > toned > > print > > > from his mentor and master printer. He respected Gassen's skill, > > judgement > > > and technique to the point to develop an ink based on the tones in > a > > Gassen > > > print. I think that is great. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Steadman > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Jerry Olson [mailto:jerryolson@...] > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 8:21 PM > > > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Selenium beta > > > > > > > > > The tone of a silver print in selenium toner is very dependent > on > both > > > the dilution and the length of time toned. You could get 50 > different > > > tones from selenium toner. Also it is hugely dependent on the > brand > of > > > paper you are toning. So what is the color of a selenium toned > print? > > > It really varies... > > > > > > > > > Jerry > > > > > > Paul Roark wrote: > > > > > > > > Robert Morrison wrote, in part: > > > > > > > > >... On EAM I would say that my general > > > > >impression is that FS-N looks blue and Selenium > > > > >Piezotones look ever so slightly eggplant. > > > > > > > > There appears to be a substantial variance in the tones that > are > > > achieved by > > > > toning silver prints with selenium -- the paper, strength of > toner > > and > > > time > > > > in toner being the primary variables. In recent years I have > (or > > had) > > > been > > > > using Kodak Polymax Fine Art paper and toning in selenium 1:19 > for > 3 > > > > minutes. This light toning was the usual practice, as far as > I > > could > > > tell, > > > > for those who wanted better archival properties, a slight > increase > > in > > > Dmax, > > > > and not a severe color change. (Heavy selenium toning often > results > > is > > > a > > > > rather magenta print.) > > > > > > > > Using the X-Rite spectrophotometer to read a sample of a > silver > > print > > > that > > > > was toned in selenium per this normal procedure, I get the > > following: > > > > > > > > Dark black (not Dmax): c=1.70, m=1.71, y=1.66, v > (visual)=1.71 > > > > > > > > Shadow tone (about 75%): c=0.99, m=1.00, y=0.99, v=1.00 > > > > > > > > Midtone (about 50%): c=0.59, m=0.60, y=0.59, v=0.60 > > > > > > > > Light tone (about 25%): c=0.33, m=0.33, y=0.32, v=0.30 > > > > > > > > So, basically, the light tones are slightly cool, the midtones > are > > > neutral > > > > with a slight magenta cast (the slight "eggplant" tone, I > would > > assume), > > > and > > > > the deep shadows/near black tones are cool. > > > > > > > > It would be interesting to see how the new PiezoTone selenium > values > > > look in > > > > comparison to these. > > > > > > > > For comparison, an FS-N test strip on EAM, with the Piezo > driver > > gives: > > > > > > > > 100% black: c=1.59, m=1.60, y=1.61, v=1.59 > > > > > > > > 75%: c=1.00, m=1.00, y=0.98, v=1.00 > > > > > > > > 50%: c=0.66, m=0.65, y=0.63, v=0.66 > > > > > > > > 25%: c=0.32, m=0.32, y=0.31, v=0.32 > > > > > > > > Paul > > > > http://www.PaulRoark.com > > > > > > > > > > > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, > Polls > > and > > > other resources as they are often being updated. 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Message
Re: [Digital BW] Selenium beta
2002-07-18 by Martin Wesley