Digital BW, The Print

Mike,

To a large extent I have come to agree with you and Jerry. I think that we
simply do not know what the life expectance of any of these ink and paper
combinations really will be. (Except of course for the ones that have
already failed.<G>) RIT and Wilhelm can test away but I think that any
attempt to extrapolate print life is essentially bogus or at least cannot be
related to real world situations. There are simply too many variables and
the only real test will be the passage of time and the examination of
hundreds or thousands of prints that experience a wide variety of
conditions.

While some may fade, I also think that some will last and the deciding
factor will be how they are displayed (or not) and stored.

For myself I plan to continue on with the inkjet printing simply because I
like the look and the process. I also hope that the ink technology will
continue to improve and that within a relative short time we will have
materials that inspire greater confidence and genuinely have a better chance
of long survival.

As for collectors who buy art as a business investment, I have little
respect or interest, nor do I care if their investments fall off the paper.
The only valid reason I see to purchase a piece of art is that you like it.
Unfortunately large numbers of people seem to lack any self confidence in
their own taste and need to be told what they like by art critics and
galleries. My 2 cents.

That said, photographers selling inkjet prints and claiming they are
archival (which has no good definition by the way) in the same way as silver
fiber or platinum prints are fooling their customers and perhaps themselves.
They may very well be correct but they cannot know. I would feel more
comfortable saying, "This is an inkjet print using carbon pigment prints and
I hope they last a really long time. If you don't hang it in direct sunlight
or in the shower, I will replace it for you if anything goes wrong."

Same guarantee I give on my silver prints. We need to remember that not all
silver fiber prints are archival either when you get right down to it. We
all have family albums to testify to the highly  variable quality of silver
printing. The greatest catastrophe in photography was the use of
nitrocellulose as a film base. Talk about a bad choice for archival
purposes. Albumen is perhaps one of the very nicest photographic mediums but
it is well understood that the albumen turns yellow with age and yet this is
accepted. It may be that carbon pigment inkjet prints all warm and this will
be accepted, too. Who knows at this point.

I am of a mind to go forward making the best decisions I can about the
materials but I think I am going to focus a bit more on what is artistically
pleasing to me rather than being solely fixated on what might last longest.

By the way Mike's platinum/palladium prints are incredible! I am lucky
enough to be sitting here with one in front of me. Well done! The color of
the print is astounding.

Martin Wesley

http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html



----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael J. Kravit" <mjkaia@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 5:27 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] EAM+Piezotones: Printer beware!


> Jerry,
>
> Very interesting observations.
>
> Previously I was a huge advocate of  inkjet quadtone printing.
Unfortunately
> as time went on, I could not personally support a system of print making
that
> has proved NOT to be archival. I had discussions with gallery owners who
> told me that collectors as a group did not want to spend money on art that
> might not prove to be a good investment from a longevity point of view.
>
> Many of us brought these issues up and we were chastised and accused of
> waging a personal war agenda against the manufacturers.  Over the past 4-6
> months I have continued to print and test. I have perfected the process of
> making digital negatives for platinum/palladium printing. many said that
it
> could not be done. using Dan Burkholders book as a begining reference I
> have succeded in making palladium prints from digital inkjet negatives
that
> are every bit as good if not better than prints made from traditional
negatives.
>
> It is my belief that eventually as ink technology progresses and printers
get
> better, photgraphers will be able to make prints that  are permament and
rival
> traditional photographic processes.  It is my opinion that the state of
the art is
> not there yet.
>
> Claims are made each and every day  by the resellers and manufacturers
that
> their product is tne best, that their product will do this, or that their
product will
> do that. The truth is that these companies bring their products to market
in an
> effort to make a living. This is the way that business operates and grows.
I
> believe that it is incumbant on the photographic community in general and
the
> artist in particular to sort fact from fiction.
>
> I have prints that I received in the very first print exchange that I
participated in
> two or three years ago. A good number of the prints have appear to my eye
to
> have faded and shifted color. This is something that I can not accept in
my
> personal work that is offered for sale. It is quite another for personal
work that
> is not destined for market.
>
> I remember a number of years that Everglades Photographer Clyde Butcher
> was very uset because he had sold many lovely landscapes made on
> variable contrast resin coated papers were bronzing and deteriorating. he
has
> to go back and re-print numerous prints for many of hsi customers, all at
his
> expense.
>
> A lesson to be learned, and be aware of.
>
> Regards and good printing.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Jerry Olson <jerryolson@r...>
wrote:
> >
> > Yes, I don't really think true archival inkjet printing is ready for
> > prime time yet. :(
> >
> > I think I've heard stories like this about all the current archival inks
> > in use today.
> >
> > Somebody has reported fading and/or color change using all of the inks
> > we discuss all the time. The original Piezos had clogs, greenies.
> > fading, software bugs, etc. The Color piezo inks had severe yellow
> > clogging. The yellow ink has always been problematic. The 2000P inks
> > faded in 6 months in a west window.  And what is bad in one part of the
> > countryis good in another.  So far, it would appear that the Generations
> > 4 inkset seems to have the least amount of problems.
> >
> > Thoughts?
> >
> > Jerry
> >
> > > - If the above is a paper-wide symptom, InkjetMall needs to recall the
> black PT
> > > ink (which is common to all sets) and refund or replace with a known
> stable
> > > ink such as MIS.
> > >
> > > - Since InkjetMall no longer supports their inks with profiles and
software,
> we
> > > need to alert Colorbyte and R9 to the need for strange new
combinations
> of
> > > inks such as PT grays with MIS FS black or MIS DD. I realize this is
> already
> > > an old idea on this list, but I thought it applied to cases that need
"extreme"
> > > archival stability. I didn't think the Piezotones wouldn't even last 2
months!!
> > > And to think they were originally hyped up as pure pigment!
> > >
> > > Any thoughts?
> > >
> > > Antonis
> > >
>
>
>
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