Digital BW, The Print

Yes, I don't really think true archival inkjet printing is ready for
prime time yet. :(

I think I've heard stories like this about all the current archival inks
in use today.

Somebody has reported fading and/or color change using all of the inks
we discuss all the time. The original Piezos had clogs, greenies.
fading, software bugs, etc. The Color piezo inks had severe yellow
clogging. The yellow ink has always been problematic. The 2000P inks
faded in 6 months in a west window.  And what is bad in one part of the
countryis good in another.  So far, it would appear that the Generations
4 inkset seems to have the least amount of problems. 

Thoughts?  

Jerry

> - If the above is a paper-wide symptom, InkjetMall needs to recall the black PT
> ink (which is common to all sets) and refund or replace with a known stable
> ink such as MIS.
> 
> - Since InkjetMall no longer supports their inks with profiles and software, we
> need to alert Colorbyte and R9 to the need for strange new combinations of
> inks such as PT grays with MIS FS black or MIS DD. I realize this is already
> an old idea on this list, but I thought it applied to cases that need "extreme"
> archival stability. I didn't think the Piezotones wouldn't even last 2 months!!
> And to think they were originally hyped up as pure pigment!
> 
> Any thoughts?
> 
> Antonis
>

On 9/8/02 2:00 PM, "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...> wrote:

> Thoughts?  
> 
> Jerry


Yeah,  I'm going back in the darkroom for B&W printing and using my printers
to make digital negs for alternative processing...

Lawrence

----------------------------------
Lawrence W. Smith Photography
http://www.lwsphoto.com
lsmith@...
----------------------------------

----- Original Message -----

From: "antonisphoto" <antonisphoto@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 08, 2002 9:25 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] EAM+Piezotones: Printer beware!


(snip)
>
> I was gone for a few weeks and when I returned a few days ago I noticed to
> my great dismay that the black and near-black areas had turned brown.
Since
> that is also a lighter value than the original black, these areas now
appear
> "solarized" or "bronzed out". IOW, the brown appears within a clear
contour
> from the surrounding image which is not affected.
>
(snip)
>
> Any thoughts?

Antonis,

Sorry to hear this. I got another report of WT-PT starting to shift green a
bit. I took a look at some sample prints I did during beta testing with this
ink and the EAM print is looking a little odd while the Photo Rag prints
seem to be holding up so far but I don't seem to like them quite as much as
I did a first. Could be my taste.

What you are seeing is what would be expected in a failure of the K but much
sooner than expected. Check out Paul's fade test of the Sel-PT,

PT-Sel-PR & EAM PT-NW-EAM 304 Hr Fade.jpg

in folder:

Files > Ink Sets > PiezoTones

This shows the reversal point you describe at about 80%. There are a couple
of other fade test jpegs in there that you have probably already seen.

We have long known that carbon pigment inks warm even in the absence of
light. It is probably an oxidation reaction and this is may be the advantage
of the Epson encapsulated inks.

Paul sent me some scans of wedges Robert printed with the PT-K replaced with
the FS-K which looked pretty good, although it is hard to tell from scans of
wedges. I hope to hand load some cartridges next week and see how it looks.
I was willing to stay with the existing Sel-PT and take my chances because I
like the look so much but this abrupt failure gives me second thoughts.

BTW, what were the temperatures where the prints were stored while you were
gone? Robert and I have theorized that Paul's fader which has lower light
levels than the commercial faders but much higher temperatures is revealing
flaws not seen in say RIT testing where there is strict temperature control.

Martin

> We have long known that carbon pigment inks warm even in the absence of
> light. It is probably an oxidation reaction and this is may be the advantage
> of the Epson encapsulated inks.

Martin,

I have just looked at an EAM and a German Etching print of the same image 
which were kept in the dark. The "browning" out did not happen. These were 
letter size proofs of work in progress, with similar "black" areas, printed at the 
same time as the big prints. I believe the reaction of the black Piezotone ink is 
related to exposure to light and possibly air. The dark-stored prints were also 
kept in a plastic bag (the kind that comes with EAM).

I have a 2200 on order and am looking forward to using it with the ImagePrint 
driver when released. Then I can compare the encapsulated inks directly with 
the quads.



> 
> Paul sent me some scans of wedges Robert printed with the PT-K replaced 
with
> the FS-K which looked pretty good, although it is hard to tell from scans of
> wedges. I hope to hand load some cartridges next week and see how it 
looks.
> I was willing to stay with the existing Sel-PT and take my chances because I
> like the look so much but this abrupt failure gives me second thoughts.

According to Robert, FS-K works well with EAM and Hahnemuhle, but Museo 
likes the MIS-DD black. This as far as dmax goes - fades are another story.  
Incidentally, I printed some grayscales using each individual ink/nozzle to 
print the whole scale. I did this with WT-PT and the color of the black is very 
startling next to the grays. Looks like a whole other animal. Who knows what 
kind of thinking is behind using this same black for all flavors of PT. Looks to 
me like they needed the money before they finished the R&D....


> 
> BTW, what were the temperatures where the prints were stored while you 
were
> gone? Robert and I have theorized that Paul's fader which has lower light
> levels than the commercial faders but much higher temperatures is 
revealing
> flaws not seen in say RIT testing where there is strict temperature control.

This is a room that warms up in the late afternoon, as all Spanish-style houses 
do in Southern Cal., but we enjoy relatively low humidity. In any case, I don't 
think there were any particular extremes during July and August that would 
cause unusual degradation. This isn't an attic or a basement, just your basic 
living room.

So, as long as we keep our prints carefully sealed in bags in a dark drawer, 
all is well with the PiezoTones!!

But seriously, have you left any PT prints with lots of black, printed on 
Hahnemuhle papers out in the air and light (for longer that 2 months)?


Antonis

On 9/8/02 11:00 AM, "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...> wrote:

> So far, it would appear that the Generations
> 4 inkset seems to have the least amount of problems.

Jerry, your Gen4 black is right behind Antonis's piezotone black...I'd give
it 4 months max in the same condition...dye is dye...and its trouble in my
book.  I've already heard of 0.3dmax density drops in that black in 3 months
of indoor, non-direct display.  It sounds to me like we will all be
siphoning 9600 black carts out to add to our quad sets.

Robert

On 9/8/02 11:58 AM, "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...> wrote:

> Sorry to hear this. I got another report of WT-PT starting to shift green a
> bit. I took a look at some sample prints I did during beta testing with this
> ink and the EAM print is looking a little odd while the Photo Rag prints
> seem to be holding up so far but I don't seem to like them quite as much as
> I did a first. Could be my taste.

Once you've spent time around the Seleniums the neutral-warms look green to
me.  I think the recipe may be the Seleniums with Ultrachrome matte black.
Can someone put together a test of this soon?  I just sent paul three
different tests of blacks with the Seleniums... (MIS DD, MIS FS-N and
GenElite)...but it sounds like the Ultrachromes may be the ticket.

Robert

----- Original Message -----

From: "Robert Morrison" <rmorrison@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 08, 2002 9:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] EAM+Piezotones: Printer beware!


> On 9/8/02 11:58 AM, "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...> wrote:
>
(snip)
>
> Once you've spent time around the Seleniums the neutral-warms look green
to
> me.  I think the recipe may be the Seleniums with Ultrachrome matte black.
> Can someone put together a test of this soon?  I just sent paul three
> different tests of blacks with the Seleniums... (MIS DD, MIS FS-N and
> GenElite)...but it sounds like the Ultrachromes may be the ticket.

Robert,

Price aside and assuming you can get the ink out of a 110ml or 220ml
cartridge, I would be concerned about parking pad cross contaimination. We
really don't know if there are any compatibility issues and I would not want
to trash the heads on a printer.

Martin

----- Original Message -----

From: "Robert Morrison" <rmorrison@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 5:58 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] EAM+Piezotones: Printer beware!


> On 9/8/02 11:00 AM, "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...> wrote:
>
> > So far, it would appear that the Generations
> > 4 inkset seems to have the least amount of problems.
>
> Jerry, your Gen4 black is right behind Antonis's piezotone black...I'd
give
> it 4 months max in the same condition...dye is dye...and its trouble in my
> book.  I've already heard of 0.3dmax density drops in that black in 3
months
> of indoor, non-direct display.  It sounds to me like we will all be
> siphoning 9600 black carts out to add to our quad sets.

Better wait for the 10600 carts then. 500 ml and probably cheaper per ml as
a result.

If Epson really intends to sell a 2200/7600/9600 Ultrachrome "quad set" they
should consider selling that same ink in 9000 carts as well. It will give
them back part of the market of third party inks and they will make a lot of
3000/7000/9000/7500/9500 owners happy that intend to upgrade to 9600 etc
models. It will give the older printers a second life.

Ernst

What will the new Epson quad set do that Imageprint cannot do with 
the standard inksets and tint picker, I wonder?  

Quentin

----- Original Message -----

From: "qdfb" <qdb@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 12:52 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] EAM+Piezotones: Printer beware!


> What will the new Epson quad set do that Imageprint cannot do with
> the standard inksets and tint picker, I wonder?

I wonder too. But there's a rumour.

3 or 4 greys, K included will however improve on greyscale quality how good
the existing B&W quality already may be. If CMY is kept you will have the
tinting as well. If only 3 greys are used and K gloss + K mat are both
installed the printers will be more versatile while colour quality is
sacrificed to some extent.

Ernst

Save you a lot of money?

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "qdfb" <qdb@...>


> What will the new Epson quad set do that Imageprint cannot do with 
> the standard inksets and tint picker, I wonder?

Bob,

Not if you have to buy another printer for B&W :-)
--
Quentin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Bob Frost" <bobfrost@b...> 
wrote:
> Save you a lot of money?
> 
> Bob Frost.
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "qdfb" <qdb@b...>
> 
> 
> > What will the new Epson quad set do that Imageprint cannot do 
with 
> > the standard inksets and tint picker, I wonder?

> What will the new Epson quad set do that Imageprint cannot do with
> the standard inksets and tint picker, I wonder?

I'm not sure a perfectly profiled 2200/7600 will make a top notch B&W
printer.  If there is differential fading of the UltraChrome color pigments,
the neutral print of today may look cyan 3 months from now.  I'm currently
testing the UltraChromes for this as we speak, but it will take a while to
get results.

So, a quad UltraChrome inkset would solve this likely problem.
Additionally, a small gamut approach can greatly reduce the problem.

I think a small-gamut inkset for the 2200/7600 series makes a lot of sense
and could be ready for release within a year -- possible from both Epson and
a third party source.

These inksets are not mature products, and the ink technology is moving
forward quickly.  There may be a 3rd party inkset that beats the
UltraChromes -- and without the resin and metamerism.  It will be tested in
a standard Epson printer soon.  If it works, the UltraChrome performance
(sans metamerism) might be available to all our old Epsons -- with whatever
driver you prefer.  These inks are moving targets.  There appears to be a
bright future.

That said, we have to use the best of what is out there now.  I can't
guarantee that the FS-K and PT-S midtones are compatible, but at first Jon
Cone was saying that while the CIS should be flushed, there was no need to
flush the heads.  This indicates that they are compatible.  Frankly, the
only compatibility problems I know of are with Lyson inks, due to their
different pH.  All the popular pigments are compatible as far as I know.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Paul,

I read some informal test results at  
http://www.livick.com/method/inkjet/pg1.htm
that suggest Ultrachromes on PhotoRag (my paper of choice) have 
pretty good lonvgevity, better than Piezo inks.

As I have mentioned, I am using ImagePrint 5 with an Epson 7600, and 
at this early stage, B&W prints look completely free of crossover 
effects.  They look like gallery quality prints.  I don't know how 
prints from a 7600 with the standard Epson driver / gray balancer 
compare with this.  Digital printing is a moving target.

We're all beta testers now.
--
Quentin


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> > What will the new Epson quad set do that Imageprint cannot do with
> > the standard inksets and tint picker, I wonder?
> 
> I'm not sure a perfectly profiled 2200/7600 will make a top notch 
B&W
> printer.  If there is differential fading of the UltraChrome color 
pigments,
> the neutral print of today may look cyan 3 months from now.  I'm 
currently
> testing the UltraChromes for this as we speak, but it will take a 
while to
> get results.
> 
> So, a quad UltraChrome inkset would solve this likely problem.
> Additionally, a small gamut approach can greatly reduce the problem.
> 
> I think a small-gamut inkset for the 2200/7600 series makes a lot 
of sense
> and could be ready for release within a year -- possible from both 
Epson and
> a third party source.
> 
> These inksets are not mature products, and the ink technology is 
moving
> forward quickly.  There may be a 3rd party inkset that beats the
> UltraChromes -- and without the resin and metamerism.  It will be 
tested in
> a standard Epson printer soon.  If it works, the UltraChrome 
performance
> (sans metamerism) might be available to all our old Epsons -- with 
whatever
> driver you prefer.  These inks are moving targets.  There appears 
to be a
> bright future.
> 
> That said, we have to use the best of what is out there now.  I 
can't
> guarantee that the FS-K and PT-S midtones are compatible, but at 
first Jon
> Cone was saying that while the CIS should be flushed, there was no 
need to
> flush the heads.  This indicates that they are compatible.  
Frankly, the
> only compatibility problems I know of are with Lyson inks, due to 
their
> different pH.  All the popular pigments are compatible as far as I 
know.

> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com

"qdfb"wrote:
> I read some informal test results at  
> http://www.livick.com/method/inkjet/pg1.htm
> that suggest Ultrachromes on PhotoRag (my paper of choice) have 
> pretty good lonvgevity, better than Piezo inks.

Reading this page it seems Ultrachromes will last only about 11 years indoor.

http://www.livick.com/method/inkjet/pg9.htm

Hey Quentin...haven't worked on my Howtek yet...I'll let you know.

Best,

John V.

----- Original Message -----

From: "Robert Morrison" <rmorrison@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 08, 2002 8:58 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] EAM+Piezotones: Printer beware!


> On 9/8/02 11:00 AM, "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...> wrote:
>
> > So far, it would appear that the Generations
> > 4 inkset seems to have the least amount of problems.
>
> Jerry, your Gen4 black is right behind Antonis's piezotone black...I'd
give
> it 4 months max in the same condition...dye is dye...and its trouble in my
> book.  I've already heard of 0.3dmax density drops in that black in 3
months
> of indoor, non-direct display.  It sounds to me like we will all be
> siphoning 9600 black carts out to add to our quad sets.

Robert,

I agree with you about dyes and all, yet it is interesting that the Gen4 set
has a higher Wilhelm rating, 100+ years then the UltraChromes at this point.
I was also under the impression that the UltraChromes were a pigment/dye
hybrid. We always seem to get conflicting reports. You have heard of a 0.3
density drop in 3 months and Jerry reports no problems after 2 or 3 years.
Confusion abounds!

Martin Wesley

Quentin,

>... informal test results at
>http://www.livick.com/method/inkjet/pg1.htm
>... suggest Ultrachromes on PhotoRag (my paper of choice) have
>pretty good longevity, better than Piezo inks.

I think that the tests at the above URL were with regular PiezoBW inks, in
which case, there seems to be no question that the UltraChromes are more
lightfast -- by a major margin.  The old PiezoBW midtones would probably be
close to the same as the FS inks, but only after the dyes have burned off --
making the print brown.  At that point the remaining carbon should act a lot
like the FS coated carbon inks.

However, the next step, and what I beleive the PiezoTone inks have done (and
what I'm hoping to do), is to use more pure carbon -- maybe even uncoated --
and tone it with coated carbon pigs.  Also, the pigment load should be
increased.  There are several ways to do this, including new bases that can
hold more carbon.

>...I am using ImagePrint 5 with an Epson 7600, and
>at this early stage, B&W prints look completely free of crossover ...

In a couple of weeks I'll have some data on whether we can expect
cross-overs to appear due to differential fading.  Of course, that issue is
a tough one to totally predict because different display conditions and
oxidizers can cause the various inks to fade at different rates.  That is
what caught Epson (and Wilhelm) off guard with the 1270 orange shift.  The
cyan dye is relatively lightfast, but only in still, unpolluted air.

> Digital printing is a moving target.

Yes, and that is good news and bad news.

>We're all beta testers now.

That's the bad news.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Quentin,

An interesting site. Thanks for the link. It is always good to get even more
info and see other people testing these inks.

However, I do find some things rather maddening with his methods.
Fundamentally I think that it is very flawed to conclude that "x" number of
hours of intense light is equal to 100 or 200 years of display live. The
intense lights may cause or initiate destruction that would never occur
under normal conditions. Just consider the effect of receiving 1% of your
expected life time exposure to sunlight in a single day!

Other issues I have is that he is not giving any numerical values. No
spectrophotometer readings or even scanner readings.

Most annoying he has not include B&W and color silver prints in his trial.
After all that is our bench mark and if a silver fiber print broke down
under that intense UV exposure, as I think it might, then the point of the
entire test becomes rather moot.

He is certainly not alone in his short comings but I wish someone would
stick a silver print into their trials so that we could have that data
point.

In the meantime I am beta testing away. <G>

Martin Wesley

http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html

----- Original Message -----
From: "qdfb" <qdb@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 9:23 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] EAM+Piezotones: Printer beware!


> Paul,
>
> I read some informal test results at
> http://www.livick.com/method/inkjet/pg1.htm
> that suggest Ultrachromes on PhotoRag (my paper of choice) have
> pretty good lonvgevity, better than Piezo inks.
>
> As I have mentioned, I am using ImagePrint 5 with an Epson 7600, and
> at this early stage, B&W prints look completely free of crossover
> effects.  They look like gallery quality prints.  I don't know how
> prints from a 7600 with the standard Epson driver / gray balancer
> compare with this.  Digital printing is a moving target.
>
> We're all beta testers now.
> --
> Quentin
>
>
(snip)

Martin, 

Remember, that's several years in normal room light without fading! 
About 3 months in a south window is all you can hope for with any
inkset.  However, it should be kept in mind, that nobody should ever
keep their prints or any other form of paintings/drawings, etc. in full
sunlight for 3 months, or even 1 month. 

Wonder what is in Acrylic paints that makes them so permanent? I have 30
year old Acrylic paintings that are as bright as the day I painted them.

Jerry

> I agree with you about dyes and all, yet it is interesting that the Gen4 set
> has a higher Wilhelm rating, 100+ years then the UltraChromes at this point.
> I was also under the impression that the UltraChromes were a pigment/dye
> hybrid. We always seem to get conflicting reports. You have heard of a 0.3
> density drop in 3 months and Jerry reports no problems after 2 or 3 years.
> Confusion abounds!
> 
> Martin Wesley

Martin, I agree, but what else can we do? Bright sunlight is quite
destructive to any artwork. If we test all the inks and papers the same
way, at least we can have a rough idea. We won't know for sure until
long after we've assumed room temperature...

Jerry

Martin Wesley wrote:

> However, I do find some things rather maddening with his methods.
> Fundamentally I think that it is very flawed to conclude that "x" number of
> hours of intense light is equal to 100 or 200 years of display live. The
> intense lights may cause or initiate destruction that would never occur
> under normal conditions. Just consider the effect of receiving 1% of your
> expected life time exposure to sunlight in a single day!

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 4:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] EAM+Piezotones: Printer beware!


> Martin,
>
> Remember, that's several years in normal room light without fading!
> About 3 months in a south window is all you can hope for with any
> inkset.  However, it should be kept in mind, that nobody should ever
> keep their prints or any other form of paintings/drawings, etc. in full
> sunlight for 3 months, or even 1 month.

Absolutely! I wouldn't guarantee one of my silver prints if it was hung
where it received any direct sunlight for any part of the day. Same goes for
my mother's oil paintings, watercolors, pencil sketches, etc. The last few
museum photography exhibits I have been to had the lights turned down so low
it was rather difficult to really appreciate some of the prints.
>
> Wonder what is in Acrylic paints that makes them so permanent? I have 30
> year old Acrylic paintings that are as bright as the day I painted them.

I suspect you have a case of pigments that became encapsulated in a plastic
coating protecting them from air and pollution. This is why Epson is
probably on the right track with their inks. Sounds like they got pretty
close with this new crop and I bet in 18 months we will see another
generation of inks and printers that may put it over the top. They have
already set the archival standard for color prints as far as I can tell.

Maybe at this point we should be looking for a reasonably stable and
artistically pleasing ink set that we can use over the next 2 or 3 years
with the expectation that there will be something wildly better down the
road we can switch to. Having done all the scanning and major image
manipulation it will not be all that much work to tweak the old images for
the new ink. Besides we should really be experts by then.

Martin
>
>
> > I agree with you about dyes and all, yet it is interesting that the Gen4
set
> > has a higher Wilhelm rating, 100+ years then the UltraChromes at this
point.
> > I was also under the impression that the UltraChromes were a pigment/dye
> > hybrid. We always seem to get conflicting reports. You have heard of a
0.3
> > density drop in 3 months and Jerry reports no problems after 2 or 3
years.

> > Confusion abounds!
> >
> > Martin Wesley
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 4:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] EAM+Piezotones: Printer beware!


> Martin, I agree, but what else can we do? Bright sunlight is quite
> destructive to any artwork. If we test all the inks and papers the same
> way, at least we can have a rough idea. We won't know for sure until
> long after we've assumed room temperature...
>
Jerry,

Just carry on balancing art and technology I guess. I can wish all I want
for more details about Wilhelm and RIT test procedures and calculations but
I don't think I am going to see it! And as you say I doubt that I will be
around to read the last chapter on this. Damn! <G>

Martin
>
> Martin Wesley wrote:
>
> > However, I do find some things rather maddening with his methods.
> > Fundamentally I think that it is very flawed to conclude that "x" number
of
> > hours of intense light is equal to 100 or 200 years of display live. The
> > intense lights may cause or initiate destruction that would never occur
> > under normal conditions. Just consider the effect of receiving 1% of
your
> > expected life time exposure to sunlight in a single day!
>
>
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Jerry,

Very interesting observations.  

Previously I was a huge advocate of  inkjet quadtone printing. Unfortunately 
as time went on, I could not personally support a system of print making that  
has proved NOT to be archival. I had discussions with gallery owners who 
told me that collectors as a group did not want to spend money on art that 
might not prove to be a good investment from a longevity point of view.

Many of us brought these issues up and we were chastised and accused of 
waging a personal war agenda against the manufacturers.  Over the past 4-6 
months I have continued to print and test. I have perfected the process of 
making digital negatives for platinum/palladium printing. many said that it 
could not be done. using Dan Burkholders book as a begining reference I 
have succeded in making palladium prints from digital inkjet negatives that 
are every bit as good if not better than prints made from traditional negatives.

It is my belief that eventually as ink technology progresses and printers get 
better, photgraphers will be able to make prints that  are permament and rival 
traditional photographic processes.  It is my opinion that the state of the art is 
not there yet.

Claims are made each and every day  by the resellers and manufacturers that 
their product is tne best, that their product will do this, or that their product will 
do that. The truth is that these companies bring their products to market in an 
effort to make a living. This is the way that business operates and grows. I 
believe that it is incumbant on the photographic community in general and the 
artist in particular to sort fact from fiction.

I have prints that I received in the very first print exchange that I participated in 
two or three years ago. A good number of the prints have appear to my eye to 
have faded and shifted color. This is something that I can not accept in my 
personal work that is offered for sale. It is quite another for personal work that 
is not destined for market.

I remember a number of years that Everglades Photographer Clyde Butcher 
was very uset because he had sold many lovely landscapes made on   
variable contrast resin coated papers were bronzing and deteriorating. he has 
to go back and re-print numerous prints for many of hsi customers, all at his 
expense.

A lesson to be learned, and be aware of.

Regards and good printing.

Mike



 
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Jerry Olson <jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> 
> Yes, I don't really think true archival inkjet printing is ready for
> prime time yet. :(
> 
> I think I've heard stories like this about all the current archival inks
> in use today.
> 
> Somebody has reported fading and/or color change using all of the inks
> we discuss all the time. The original Piezos had clogs, greenies.
> fading, software bugs, etc. The Color piezo inks had severe yellow
> clogging. The yellow ink has always been problematic. The 2000P inks
> faded in 6 months in a west window.  And what is bad in one part of the
> countryis good in another.  So far, it would appear that the Generations
> 4 inkset seems to have the least amount of problems. 
> 
> Thoughts?  
> 
> Jerry
> 
> > - If the above is a paper-wide symptom, InkjetMall needs to recall the 
black PT
> > ink (which is common to all sets) and refund or replace with a known 
stable
> > ink such as MIS.
> > 
> > - Since InkjetMall no longer supports their inks with profiles and software, 
we
> > need to alert Colorbyte and R9 to the need for strange new combinations 
of
> > inks such as PT grays with MIS FS black or MIS DD. I realize this is 
already

> > an old idea on this list, but I thought it applied to cases that need "extreme"
> > archival stability. I didn't think the Piezotones wouldn't even last 2 months!!
> > And to think they were originally hyped up as pure pigment!
> > 
> > Any thoughts?
> > 
> > Antonis
> >

Mike,

To a large extent I have come to agree with you and Jerry. I think that we
simply do not know what the life expectance of any of these ink and paper
combinations really will be. (Except of course for the ones that have
already failed.<G>) RIT and Wilhelm can test away but I think that any
attempt to extrapolate print life is essentially bogus or at least cannot be
related to real world situations. There are simply too many variables and
the only real test will be the passage of time and the examination of
hundreds or thousands of prints that experience a wide variety of
conditions.

While some may fade, I also think that some will last and the deciding
factor will be how they are displayed (or not) and stored.

For myself I plan to continue on with the inkjet printing simply because I
like the look and the process. I also hope that the ink technology will
continue to improve and that within a relative short time we will have
materials that inspire greater confidence and genuinely have a better chance
of long survival.

As for collectors who buy art as a business investment, I have little
respect or interest, nor do I care if their investments fall off the paper.
The only valid reason I see to purchase a piece of art is that you like it.
Unfortunately large numbers of people seem to lack any self confidence in
their own taste and need to be told what they like by art critics and
galleries. My 2 cents.

That said, photographers selling inkjet prints and claiming they are
archival (which has no good definition by the way) in the same way as silver
fiber or platinum prints are fooling their customers and perhaps themselves.
They may very well be correct but they cannot know. I would feel more
comfortable saying, "This is an inkjet print using carbon pigment prints and
I hope they last a really long time. If you don't hang it in direct sunlight
or in the shower, I will replace it for you if anything goes wrong."

Same guarantee I give on my silver prints. We need to remember that not all
silver fiber prints are archival either when you get right down to it. We
all have family albums to testify to the highly  variable quality of silver
printing. The greatest catastrophe in photography was the use of
nitrocellulose as a film base. Talk about a bad choice for archival
purposes. Albumen is perhaps one of the very nicest photographic mediums but
it is well understood that the albumen turns yellow with age and yet this is
accepted. It may be that carbon pigment inkjet prints all warm and this will
be accepted, too. Who knows at this point.

I am of a mind to go forward making the best decisions I can about the
materials but I think I am going to focus a bit more on what is artistically
pleasing to me rather than being solely fixated on what might last longest.

By the way Mike's platinum/palladium prints are incredible! I am lucky
enough to be sitting here with one in front of me. Well done! The color of
the print is astounding.

Martin Wesley

http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html



----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael J. Kravit" <mjkaia@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 5:27 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] EAM+Piezotones: Printer beware!


> Jerry,
>
> Very interesting observations.
>
> Previously I was a huge advocate of  inkjet quadtone printing.
Unfortunately
> as time went on, I could not personally support a system of print making
that
> has proved NOT to be archival. I had discussions with gallery owners who
> told me that collectors as a group did not want to spend money on art that
> might not prove to be a good investment from a longevity point of view.
>
> Many of us brought these issues up and we were chastised and accused of
> waging a personal war agenda against the manufacturers.  Over the past 4-6
> months I have continued to print and test. I have perfected the process of
> making digital negatives for platinum/palladium printing. many said that
it
> could not be done. using Dan Burkholders book as a begining reference I
> have succeded in making palladium prints from digital inkjet negatives
that
> are every bit as good if not better than prints made from traditional
negatives.
>
> It is my belief that eventually as ink technology progresses and printers
get
> better, photgraphers will be able to make prints that  are permament and
rival
> traditional photographic processes.  It is my opinion that the state of
the art is
> not there yet.
>
> Claims are made each and every day  by the resellers and manufacturers
that
> their product is tne best, that their product will do this, or that their
product will
> do that. The truth is that these companies bring their products to market
in an
> effort to make a living. This is the way that business operates and grows.
I
> believe that it is incumbant on the photographic community in general and
the
> artist in particular to sort fact from fiction.
>
> I have prints that I received in the very first print exchange that I
participated in
> two or three years ago. A good number of the prints have appear to my eye
to
> have faded and shifted color. This is something that I can not accept in
my
> personal work that is offered for sale. It is quite another for personal
work that
> is not destined for market.
>
> I remember a number of years that Everglades Photographer Clyde Butcher
> was very uset because he had sold many lovely landscapes made on
> variable contrast resin coated papers were bronzing and deteriorating. he
has
> to go back and re-print numerous prints for many of hsi customers, all at
his
> expense.
>
> A lesson to be learned, and be aware of.
>
> Regards and good printing.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Jerry Olson <jerryolson@r...>
wrote:
> >
> > Yes, I don't really think true archival inkjet printing is ready for
> > prime time yet. :(
> >
> > I think I've heard stories like this about all the current archival inks
> > in use today.
> >
> > Somebody has reported fading and/or color change using all of the inks
> > we discuss all the time. The original Piezos had clogs, greenies.
> > fading, software bugs, etc. The Color piezo inks had severe yellow
> > clogging. The yellow ink has always been problematic. The 2000P inks
> > faded in 6 months in a west window.  And what is bad in one part of the
> > countryis good in another.  So far, it would appear that the Generations
> > 4 inkset seems to have the least amount of problems.
> >
> > Thoughts?
> >
> > Jerry
> >
> > > - If the above is a paper-wide symptom, InkjetMall needs to recall the
> black PT
> > > ink (which is common to all sets) and refund or replace with a known
> stable
> > > ink such as MIS.
> > >
> > > - Since InkjetMall no longer supports their inks with profiles and
software,
> we
> > > need to alert Colorbyte and R9 to the need for strange new
combinations
> of
> > > inks such as PT grays with MIS FS black or MIS DD. I realize this is
> already
> > > an old idea on this list, but I thought it applied to cases that need
"extreme"
> > > archival stability. I didn't think the Piezotones wouldn't even last 2
months!!
> > > And to think they were originally hyped up as pure pigment!
> > >
> > > Any thoughts?
> > >
> > > Antonis
> > >
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Martin, I would just add to this comment by saying that all "works on paper"
are generally considered to be among the most fragile and fugitive of the
art making processes. Of course even sculpture is susceptible to air
pollution and lack of proper care.

Wendel

> While some may fade, I also think that some will last and the deciding
> factor will be how they are displayed (or not) and stored.
> 
> For myself I plan to continue on with the inkjet printing simply because I
> like the look and the process. I also hope that the ink technology will
> continue to improve and that within a relative short time we will have
> materials that inspire greater confidence and genuinely have a better chance
> of long survival.
> 
> As for collectors who buy art as a business investment, I have little
> respect or interest, nor do I care if their investments fall off the paper.
> The only valid reason I see to purchase a piece of art is that you like it.
> Unfortunately large numbers of people seem to lack any self confidence in
> their own taste and need to be told what they like by art critics and
> galleries. My 2 cents.

Wendel,

A most important point which I should have made. The entire idea that
photographs, works on paper, are some how supposed to be archivally eternal
is pure nuttiness. About a year ago I spent an afternoon viewing photographs
in the Stanford University collection. I actually got to hold a William
Henry Fox Talbot print from the 1830's in my hands. The paper was in
wonderful shape but the image was a soft magenta blur. Virtually all the
prints representing the entire spectrum of photographic printing medium
showed some examples of deteriorating from bug bites, water damage, fading,
yellowing, strange discolorations, crease marks, etc. There were a few
exceptions but not many. Things like some daguerreotypes under glass in
small cases. Only with the modern prints done in the last 50 years did
things look pretty pristine and in part I attribute that to the
conservationists who have figured out how to properly store photographs.

Make art and stop obsessing over whether it will still look good to people
once you are dead! You will be lucky if they like while you are still alive.

Martin Wesley

http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html



----- Original Message -----
From: "Wendel White" <wendel@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2002 4:11 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] EAM+Piezotones: Printer beware!


> Martin, I would just add to this comment by saying that all "works on
paper"
> are generally considered to be among the most fragile and fugitive of the
> art making processes. Of course even sculpture is susceptible to air
> pollution and lack of proper care.
>
> Wendel
>
> > While some may fade, I also think that some will last and the deciding
> > factor will be how they are displayed (or not) and stored.
> >
> > For myself I plan to continue on with the inkjet printing simply because
I
> > like the look and the process. I also hope that the ink technology will
> > continue to improve and that within a relative short time we will have
> > materials that inspire greater confidence and genuinely have a better
chance
> > of long survival.
> >
> > As for collectors who buy art as a business investment, I have little
> > respect or interest, nor do I care if their investments fall off the
paper.
> > The only valid reason I see to purchase a piece of art is that you like
it.
> > Unfortunately large numbers of people seem to lack any self confidence
in
> > their own taste and need to be told what they like by art critics and
> > galleries. My 2 cents.
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Boy do I agree with this!

Jerry

Martin Wesley wrote:
> Wendel,
....

....Only with the modern prints done in the last 50 years did

> things look pretty pristine and in part I attribute that to the
> conservationists who have figured out how to properly store photographs.
> 
> Make art and stop obsessing over whether it will still look good to people
> once you are dead! You will be lucky if they like while you are still alive.
> 
> Martin Wesley
> 
> http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html
>

Robert,

Thanks for the report. Is the effect strong enough to show up on a scan? If
it is, I would appreciate a scan of even a portion of the image to post.

Martin


----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Morrison" <rmorrison@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2002 5:59 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] EAM+Piezotones: Printer beware!


> I'm confirming Antonis's result.  I have had exactly the same result now
> with the Selenium Piezotones.  I have a large print on EAM that was
printed
> one month ago.  For the last 5 days it was in a room that receives
> intermittent strong day light...probably about 2 hours a day.  After 5
days
> it shows the bad crossover warming/fading that Antonis describes below.
> Prints made at the same time that were stored in the dark do not show
this.
> This experience eliminates the Piezotone black for me.
>
> Robert
>
> in a room thOn 9/8/02 9:25 AM, "antonisphoto" <antonisphoto@...>
> wrote:
>
> > I have a series of large prints on EAM made with the new Warm-Tone
> > Piezotones on a 7000 using ImagePrint 4.  They were printed 2 months
ago,
> > and since they were meant as proofs,  I clipped them up on the walls
> > unframed. The room they have been hanging gets no direct sun but has
> > plenty of daylight from a southern window.
> >
> > I was gone for a few weeks and when I returned a few days ago I noticed
to
> > my great dismay that the black and near-black areas had turned brown.
Since
> > that is also a lighter value than the original black, these areas now
appear
> > "solarized" or "bronzed out". IOW, the brown appears within a clear
contour
> > from the surrounding image which is not affected.
> >
> > I am guessing these are the areas where the black ink kicks in. So, I
have
> > many questions and theories, but no answers. Maybe we can compare notes?
> >
> > - Is this happening only on Epson Archival Matte (and the recently
renamed
> > version)? Any other papers? Does it happen behind glass?
> >
> > - Is this what Paul Roark predicted about PT black - except this
happened in
> > (a short) real time and real world  conditions rather than a fader?
Pretty
> > scary.
> >
> > - If the above is a paper-wide symptom, InkjetMall needs to recall the
black
> > PT
> > ink (which is common to all sets) and refund or replace with a known
stable
> > ink such as MIS.
> >
> > - Since InkjetMall no longer supports their inks with profiles and
software,
> > we
> > need to alert Colorbyte and R9 to the need for strange new combinations
of
> > inks such as PT grays with MIS FS black or MIS DD. I realize this is
already
> > an old idea on this list, but I thought it applied to cases that need
> > "extreme"
> > archival stability. I didn't think the Piezotones wouldn't even last 2
> > months!!
> > And to think they were originally hyped up as pure pigment!
> >
> > Any thoughts?
> >
> >
> > Antonis
> >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other
> > resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this
same
> > page.
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep
> > them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> > &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> > resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

It is...I'm pretty sure that Antonis is planning on doing it.

Robert

On 9/21/02 7:29 PM, "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...> wrote:

> Robert,
> 
> Thanks for the report. Is the effect strong enough to show up on a scan? If
> it is, I would appreciate a scan of even a portion of the image to post.
> 
> Martin
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robert Morrison" <rmorrison@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2002 5:59 PM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] EAM+Piezotones: Printer beware!
> 
> 
>> I'm confirming Antonis's result.  I have had exactly the same result now
>> with the Selenium Piezotones.  I have a large print on EAM that was
> printed
>> one month ago.  For the last 5 days it was in a room that receives
>> intermittent strong day light...probably about 2 hours a day.  After 5
> days
>> it shows the bad crossover warming/fading that Antonis describes below.
>> Prints made at the same time that were stored in the dark do not show
> this.
>> This experience eliminates the Piezotone black for me.
>> 
>> Robert
>> 
>> in a room thOn 9/8/02 9:25 AM, "antonisphoto" <antonisphoto@...>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> I have a series of large prints on EAM made with the new Warm-Tone
>>> Piezotones on a 7000 using ImagePrint 4.  They were printed 2 months
> ago,
>>> and since they were meant as proofs,  I clipped them up on the walls
>>> unframed. The room they have been hanging gets no direct sun but has
>>> plenty of daylight from a southern window.
>>> 
>>> I was gone for a few weeks and when I returned a few days ago I noticed
> to
>>> my great dismay that the black and near-black areas had turned brown.
> Since
>>> that is also a lighter value than the original black, these areas now
> appear
>>> "solarized" or "bronzed out". IOW, the brown appears within a clear
> contour
>>> from the surrounding image which is not affected.
>>> 
>>> I am guessing these are the areas where the black ink kicks in. So, I
> have
>>> many questions and theories, but no answers. Maybe we can compare notes?
>>> 
>>> - Is this happening only on Epson Archival Matte (and the recently
> renamed
>>> version)? Any other papers? Does it happen behind glass?
>>> 
>>> - Is this what Paul Roark predicted about PT black - except this
> happened in
>>> (a short) real time and real world  conditions rather than a fader?
> Pretty
>>> scary.
>>> 
>>> - If the above is a paper-wide symptom, InkjetMall needs to recall the
> black
>>> PT
>>> ink (which is common to all sets) and refund or replace with a known
> stable
>>> ink such as MIS.
>>> 
>>> - Since InkjetMall no longer supports their inks with profiles and
> software,
>>> we
>>> need to alert Colorbyte and R9 to the need for strange new combinations
> of
>>> inks such as PT grays with MIS FS black or MIS DD. I realize this is
> already
>>> an old idea on this list, but I thought it applied to cases that need
>>> "extreme"
>>> archival stability. I didn't think the Piezotones wouldn't even last 2
>>> months!!
>>> And to think they were originally hyped up as pure pigment!
>>> 
>>> Any thoughts?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Antonis
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
> other
>>> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>>> 
>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>>> 
>>> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
>>> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this
> same
>>> page.
>>> 
>>> Please follow these basic guidelines:
>>> - Include your full name with your message.
>>> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>>> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
> keep
>>> them short.
>>> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
> header.
>>> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
>>> &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
>>> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>>> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
>>> resources on the homepage.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>> 
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>> 
>> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
>> 
>> Please follow these basic guidelines:
>> - Include your full name with your message.
>> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
>> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
>> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
>> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
>

Holy Cow, you'd think Cone would have gotten his inks right by now. How
many times has he had faulty inks? 5? 6?  Wonder if he does any real
world tests.

Sheesh!

Jerry

Robert Morrison wrote:

> 
> I'm confirming Antonis's result.  I have had exactly the same result now
> with the Selenium Piezotones.  I have a large print on EAM that was printed
> one month ago.  For the last 5 days it was in a room that receives
> intermittent strong day light...probably about 2 hours a day.  After 5 days
> it shows the bad crossover warming/fading that Antonis describes below.
> Prints made at the same time that were stored in the dark do not show this.
> This experience eliminates the Piezotone black for me.
> 
> Robert
> 
> in a room thOn 9/8/02 9:25 AM, "antonisphoto" <antonisphoto@...>
> wrote:
> 
> > I have a series of large prints on EAM made with the new Warm-Tone
> > Piezotones on a 7000 using ImagePrint 4.  They were printed 2 months ago,
> > and since they were meant as proofs,  I clipped them up on the walls
> > unframed. The room they have been hanging gets no direct sun but has
> > plenty of daylight from a southern window.
> >
> > I was gone for a few weeks and when I returned a few days ago I noticed to
> > my great dismay that the black and near-black areas had turned brown. Since
> > that is also a lighter value than the original black, these areas now appear
> > "solarized" or "bronzed out". IOW, the brown appears within a clear contour
> > from the surrounding image which is not affected.
> >
> > I am guessing these are the areas where the black ink kicks in. So, I have
> > many questions and theories, but no answers. Maybe we can compare notes?
> >
> > - Is this happening only on Epson Archival Matte (and the recently renamed
> > version)? Any other papers? Does it happen behind glass?
> >
> > - Is this what Paul Roark predicted about PT black - except this happened in
> > (a short) real time and real world  conditions rather than a fader? Pretty
> > scary.
> >
> > - If the above is a paper-wide symptom, InkjetMall needs to recall the black
> > PT
> > ink (which is common to all sets) and refund or replace with a known stable
> > ink such as MIS.
> >
> > - Since InkjetMall no longer supports their inks with profiles and software,
> > we
> > need to alert Colorbyte and R9 to the need for strange new combinations of
> > inks such as PT grays with MIS FS black or MIS DD. I realize this is already
> > an old idea on this list, but I thought it applied to cases that need
> > "extreme"
> > archival stability. I didn't think the Piezotones wouldn't even last 2
> > months!!
> > And to think they were originally hyped up as pure pigment!
> >
> > Any thoughts?
> >
> >
> > Antonis
> >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> > resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
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> > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> > page.
> >
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> > &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
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> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> > resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
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> 
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> 
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On 9/22/02 11:18 AM, "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...> wrote:

> Holy Cow, you'd think Cone would have gotten his inks right by now. How
> many times has he had faulty inks? 5? 6?  Wonder if he does any real
> world tests.
> 
> Sheesh!
> 
> Jerry



And we all wonder why the gallery owners have not been quick to accept our
inkjet prints.   I know I can't afford to take these kind of risks with my
clients.  How many times can we tell them that these are 'archival' when in
fact they fade faster than my 501 levi's?

Lawrence


----------------------------------
Lawrence W. Smith Photography
http://www.lwsphoto.com
lsmith@...
----------------------------------

Lawrence Smith wrote:
> 
> On 9/22/02 11:18 AM, "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...> wrote:
> 
> > Holy Cow, you'd think Cone would have gotten his inks right by now. How
> > many times has he had faulty inks? 5? 6?  Wonder if he does any real
> > world tests.
> >
> > Sheesh!
> >
> > Jerry
> 
> And we all wonder why the gallery owners have not been quick to accept our
> inkjet prints.   I know I can't afford to take these kind of risks with my
> clients.  How many times can we tell them that these are 'archival' when in
> fact they fade faster than my 501 levi's?


From the Inkjetmall website regarding the piezotone inks:


*	First pigment ink system to deliver consistent color without the
warming reaction on coated inkjet papers 			associated with pigmented
quad inks. No curing time required to arrive at final color.
*	Greatest combined longevity and dMax in the industry. No need to
sacrifice long life for deep blacks
*	Although the inks work flawlessly with the PiezographyBW ink ICQ
profiles, you will notice that the density			range is further increased
and images "breathe" better in both the shadows and highlights,
maximizing local 			contrast where ever possible.
*	Choose between Warm Neutral or Selenium Tone inksets. 

Hm.....

----- Original Message -----

From: "Lawrence Smith" <lsmith@...>
To: "DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint yahoogroups.com"
<DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2002 6:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] EAM+Piezotones: Printer beware!


> On 9/22/02 11:18 AM, "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...> wrote:
>
> > Holy Cow, you'd think Cone would have gotten his inks right by now. How
> > many times has he had faulty inks? 5? 6?  Wonder if he does any real
> > world tests.
> >
> > Sheesh!
> >
> > Jerry
>
>
>
> And we all wonder why the gallery owners have not been quick to accept our
> inkjet prints.   I know I can't afford to take these kind of risks with my
> clients.  How many times can we tell them that these are 'archival' when
in
> fact they fade faster than my 501 levi's?

>
 Lawrence,

The original Piezo/Sundance inks had problems with clogging, "green shift"
and a hue that some people did not like. While we know that the ink warm
shifts, at this point in time there have been no reports of abrupt
catastrophic fading. There are many fine examples of prints made with those
inks that are doing just fine. The print you submitted to Shilesh's 13x19
exchange last year looks just like new.

In addition keep in mind that the PiezoTone grays appear to be significantly
more fade resistant. Archival B&W printing is still bleeding edge stuff but
things are getting better. It is just a case of two steps forward, one step
back at the moment. Give it a few years. Inkjet has already surpassed silver
based color prints for fade resistance and they may wind up surpassing
silver B&W as the technology advances.

I for one would not have a problem selling carbon pigment inkjet prints and
labeling them as such with my usual replacement guarantee.

Martin Wesley

http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html

Martin: If I may, what is your usual guarantee regarding the 
replacement of an inkjet print?
		Thank you, Jim

On Sunday, September 22, 2002, at 07:53 PM, Martin Wesley wrote:

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lawrence Smith" <lsmith@...>
> To: "DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint yahoogroups.com"
> <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2002 6:38 PM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] EAM+Piezotones: Printer beware!
>
>
> > On 9/22/02 11:18 AM, "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...> wrote:
> >
> > > Holy Cow, you'd think Cone would have gotten his inks right by 
> now. How
> > > many times has he had faulty inks? 5? 6?  Wonder if he does any 
> real
> > > world tests.
> > >
> > > Sheesh!
> > >
> > > Jerry
> >
> >
> >
> > And we all wonder why the gallery owners have not been quick to 
> accept our
> > inkjet prints.   I know I can't afford to take these kind of risks 
> with my
> > clients.  How many times can we tell them that these are 'archival' 
> when
> in
> > fact they fade faster than my 501 levi's?
>
> >
> Lawrence,
>
> The original Piezo/Sundance inks had problems with clogging, "green 
> shift"
> and a hue that some people did not like. While we know that the ink 
> warm
> shifts, at this point in time there have been no reports of abrupt
> catastrophic fading. There are many fine examples of prints made with 
> those
> inks that are doing just fine. The print you submitted to Shilesh's 
> 13x19
> exchange last year looks just like new.
>
> In addition keep in mind that the PiezoTone grays appear to be 
> significantly
> more fade resistant. Archival B&W printing is still bleeding edge 
> stuff but
> things are getting better. It is just a case of two steps forward, one 
> step
> back at the moment. Give it a few years. Inkjet has already surpassed 
> silver
> based color prints for fade resistance and they may wind up surpassing
> silver B&W as the technology advances.
>
> I for one would not have a problem selling carbon pigment inkjet 
> prints and
> labeling them as such with my usual replacement guarantee.
>
> Martin Wesley
>
> http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html
>
>
>
>
<image.tiff>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls 
> and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
> this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to 
> keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
> header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
> various resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "James Downs" <silvergull@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2002 9:53 PM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] EAM+Piezotones: Printer beware!


> Martin: If I may, what is your usual guarantee regarding the 
> replacement of an inkjet print?
> Thank you, Jim

Jim,

I would offer the same guarantee as I have with my silver fiber prints. If the print should prove defective due to materials or workmanship I will replace it at no charge. I would expect photographers to do this regardless of the medium. You need to stand behind your work. If my inkjet prints should fade I would not expect the buyer to take a loss. Obviously the guarantee is only good as long as I am alive and still able to make prints. 

I tell people that photographs should not be hung where they will receive any direct sunlight, be exposed to moisture or be subjected to extreme temperatures. They should be framed under glass or plastic with quality archival materials.

Martin Wesley

http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html


On Sunday, September 22, 2002, at 07:53 PM, Martin Wesley wrote:

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lawrence Smith" <lsmith@...>
> To: "DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint yahoogroups.com"
> <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2002 6:38 PM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] EAM+Piezotones: Printer beware!
>
>
> > On 9/22/02 11:18 AM, "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...> wrote:
> >
> > > Holy Cow, you'd think Cone would have gotten his inks right by 
> now. How
> > > many times has he had faulty inks? 5? 6? Wonder if he does any 
> real
> > > world tests.
> > >
> > > Sheesh!
> > >
> > > Jerry
> >
> >
> >
> > And we all wonder why the gallery owners have not been quick to 
> accept our
> > inkjet prints. I know I can't afford to take these kind of risks 
> with my
> > clients. How many times can we tell them that these are 'archival' 
> when
> in
> > fact they fade faster than my 501 levi's?
>
> >
> Lawrence,
>
> The original Piezo/Sundance inks had problems with clogging, "green 
> shift"
> and a hue that some people did not like. While we know that the ink 
> warm
> shifts, at this point in time there have been no reports of abrupt
> catastrophic fading. There are many fine examples of prints made with 
> those
> inks that are doing just fine. The print you submitted to Shilesh's 
> 13x19
> exchange last year looks just like new.
>
> In addition keep in mind that the PiezoTone grays appear to be 
> significantly
> more fade resistant. Archival B&W printing is still bleeding edge 
> stuff but
> things are getting better. It is just a case of two steps forward, one 
> step
> back at the moment. Give it a few years. Inkjet has already surpassed 
> silver
> based color prints for fade resistance and they may wind up surpassing
> silver B&W as the technology advances.
>
> I for one would not have a problem selling carbon pigment inkjet 
> prints and
> labeling them as such with my usual replacement guarantee.
>
> Martin Wesley
>
> http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html
>
>
>
>
<image.tiff>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls 
> and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
> this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to 
> keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
> header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
> various resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- Include your full name with your message.
- Include the address of your website, if you have one.
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
- Complete your Yahoo profile.
- Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage. 


 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi folks,

All of this talk about problems with Piezotones only on EAM paper has 
been worrisome...

Is the problem with the black ink is that it reacts with EAM itself? 
Or is this a problem on acid-free papers like Photo Rag?... Would the 
problem be with the Piezotones or the EAM paper itself. Remember that 
EAM isn't an acid free paper (and probably not as archival as 
expected) and it is a paper best left for proofing.

I don't know whether we're quicker to blame the inks because the 
paper could be a possible factor in the fading equation.

sincerely, AW

> >
> > > Holy Cow, you'd think Cone would have gotten his inks right by 
now. How
> > > many times has he had faulty inks? 5? 6?  Wonder if he does any 
real
> > > world tests.
> > >
> 
> I for one would not have a problem selling carbon pigment inkjet 
prints and
> labeling them as such with my usual replacement guarantee.
>

On a simpler note: EAM (acidic? paper) + Piezotone black ink + direct 
sunlight/UV radiation = brassing/brownish tints???

I would test the MIS inks and the other quadtone inks on EAM to see 
whether the EAM paper is at fault. After all the Epson inks are fine 
on EAM so far but EAM wasn't designed for Piezotones so any potential 
risk of printing piezography on it is bound to be unpredictable.

Lawrence, I haven't seen any fading or color shifting at all with the 
MIS VM inks and Enhanced Generations
black ink. The test prints lasted nearly 3 months in a sunny window 
before fading was noticeable.

Jerry

(If you REALLY want to get depressed, put a print using ANY inkset 
outside in the sun, with no glass protection.)

Most will fade noticeably in a week or two....

But who would do that with a work of art anyhow?

>>Holy Cow, you'd think Cone would have gotten his inks right by now. How
>>many times has he had faulty inks? 5? 6?  Wonder if he does any real
>>world tests.
>>
>>Sheesh!
>>
>>Jerry
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And we all wonder why the gallery owners have not been quick to accept our
> inkjet prints.   I know I can't afford to take these kind of risks with my
> clients.  How many times can we tell them that these are 'archival' when in
> fact they fade faster than my 501 levi's?
> 
> Lawrence
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------
> Lawrence W. Smith Photography
> http://www.lwsphoto.com
> lsmith@...
> ----------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage. 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 
>

Albert,

The PiezoTone black failures have been on Hahnemule Photo Rag a heavily
buffered paper and on EAM both. The fade is larger on the Photo Rag then on
EAM. In terms of warming and fading EAM has consistently out performed most
papers.

Martin Wesley

http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html



----- Original Message -----
From: "Albert Wang" <leica_phile@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, September 23, 2002 6:21 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] EAM+Piezotones: ... problems with EAM???


> On a simpler note: EAM (acidic? paper) + Piezotone black ink + direct
> sunlight/UV radiation = brassing/brownish tints???
>
> I would test the MIS inks and the other quadtone inks on EAM to see
> whether the EAM paper is at fault. After all the Epson inks are fine
> on EAM so far but EAM wasn't designed for Piezotones so any potential
> risk of printing piezography on it is bound to be unpredictable.
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>