Digital BW, The Print

Imageprint uses photocyan, photomagenta, black and lightblack when printing
in BW mode.  The main problem with 7600 BW output that I've seen is
highlight detail.  Because the lightblack ink is much blacker than a
"yellow" channel quad ink, the dots in the hilights are necessarily easier
to see.  I doubt that most people would notice this without a loupe...but
I'm "cursed" with 20/15 vision.  In addition, in the samples that I've seen
the shadows tend to become blocked when you actually use the tint picker.
The dead neutral gray ramp looked very nice, though...I'm looking forward to
trying it with a 2200.

Robert




On 9/26/02 5:00 PM, "qdfb" <qdb@...> wrote:

> Craig,
> 
> On the inks used, I have assumed all, except the yellow.  It is
> definitely not using just the two blacks; no way the prints would
> look this good if that was the case.  The way the tint picker works,
> you can subtlely vary the colour from warm to cool etc.  That
> involves all the inks, save yellow.
> 
> The 4 and 8 pass at 1440 are different ImagePrint quality settings,
> reflecting the number of print head passes.  You could set 2880, but
> I doubt there would be any point on matte media.  Basically, 8 pass
> is about half the speed of 4 pass, as you would expect, but you do
> see the benefits in a smoother print, particularly with colour.
> 
> Quentin
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Craig J. Sterling"
> <craig@c...> wrote:
>> Quentin,
>> 
>> Excellently written evaluation...thanks.
>> 
>> One thing I am not particularly clear on, and that is...when
> printing
>> neutral B/W from the 7600 with ImagePrint, is the printer laying
> down 7
>> colors or 2 colors?  I am told 2 colors.  If that is so, than no
> way are 2
>> colors of black going to out perform the smoothness and contrast of
> 6
>> colors/shades of black, i.e. Quad/Hex.
>> 
>> Also, what is 4 pass vs. 8 pass printing at 1440?
>> 
>> Thanks...Craig Sterling
>> 
>>> From: "qdfb" <qdb@b...>
>>> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
>>> Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 22:37:12 -0000
>>> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
>>> Subject: [Digital BW] Piezo Pro, 7000 and ImagePrint 5, 7600 for
> B&W.
>>> 
>>> Antonis suggested I post my updated views on comparisons I have
>>> undertaken recently of B&W output from an Epson 7000 run by
>>> Piezography Pro (the so called R9 software), with Selenium Tone
> inks,
>>> and an Epson 7600, matte black ink, run by ImagePrint 5.  Finally,
>>> I'll comment briefly on the 7000 / Selenium run by ImagePrint 5.
>>> 
>>> I deliberately use the word "views", not "findings" because this
> is
>>> not a scientific experiment.  It is, inevitably, in large part
>>> subjective. Your mileage, as they say, may vary.
>>> 
>>> If Antonis thinks it useful, I may add the images I used for this
>>> test to the files section of the list so you can see what I am
>>> talking about below.
>>> 
>>> One image, the church image, has a lot of information in the 95-
> 99%
>>> range, but hardly any at 100%.  It is a good test of shadow
> detail.
>>> The other image, from  the Olympic stadium in Barcelona, is sharp
> but
>>> a bit grainy, with some deep shadows and blown out highlights.
> Both
>>> are 360 dpi.  Prints were made on Photo Rag 308gsm
>>> 
>>> Chruch Print - Piezo
>>> 
>>> I have some issues with Piezo / Selenium inks.  There is some
> subtle
>>> microbanding I cannot shift.  Others have reported this on the two
>>> piezo lists, and it seems to be a problem associated with the
> change
>>> from the old "Sundance" inks to the new PiezoTone inks.  This has
>>> been a driver behind my personal search for a viable alternative.
>>> 
>>> I continue to be amazed at how well Piezo seperates tones in the
> 95-
>>> 100% region.  I'd argue it looks almost too open.  There seems to
>>> have been some contrast loss with the new inks, but they exhibit
>>> incredible tonality.  There is no sootiness, and you can see in to
>>> the shadows. 
>>> 
>>> There are no visible dots under an 8x loup, but if you *really*
> look
>>> closely, you can just see the "tartan" weave pattern.  Frankly,
> this
>>> is irrelevant, as the surface texture of Photo Rag is more
> obvious at
>>> this magnification.  If only the microbanding would shift, this
> would
>>> be one near perfect print.
>>> 
>>> Chruch Print - ImagePrint / 7600
>>> 
>>> The original shot was taken on a Bronica GS 1 6x7 camera, Agfa APX
>>> 25, developed in Rodinal,
>>> 
>>> I used a profile kindly supplied by John Pannozzo this week
>>> specifically for Photo Rag and Matte ink.  Print made at 1440, 8-
> pass.
>>> 
>>> The first point to make is that we are looking at a totally
> neutral
>>> B&W print.  There are no croosover effects - no way to tell this
> was
>>> not made with a quadtone inkset.  Metamerism is also almost
>>> bansihed.  This, I am told, is because ImagePrint does not use the
>>> yellow ink.  Whatever, it works :-)
>>> 
>>> It is immediately noticeable that there is more contrast in this
>>> print.  It also looks slightly sharper, possibly a result of the
>>> greater contrast, but I wonder also if the way ink is laid down
> is a
>>> factor, or whether the smaller dot size / resolution improvement
> with
>>> the 7600 is in evidence.
>>> 
>>> There are no dots visible to the naked eye. Under an 8x loup, you
> can
>>> just make out the individual colour dyes laid down by the 7600 in
>>> lighter tone areas.  Not the slightest chance you'd see this
> without
>>> a powerful loup - the print looks totally dotless - and even with
> a
>>> loup, the dots are far from obvious.  They are a little more
> obvious
>>> under the loup if you chose 4 instead of 8 pass at 1440.
>>> 
>>> The shadows are well seperated with ImagePrint, but not quite as
> much
>>> shadow info is visible at around the 96-98% mark as with Piezo.
> it
>>> is a matter of taste which is "better".  I do think, however,
> that it
>>> is more obvious where the matte black in kicks in.  I might
>>> experiment with ink limiting as I think this would improve
> matters.
>>> 
>>> Nij Rheam and I have speculated whether the ImagePrint Gamma 2.2
>>> prints just a tad too dark.
>>> 
>>> Stadium Print - Piezo
>>> 
>>> A more contrasty subject, shot on a Mamiya 7II with Agfa 100 and
>>> developed in Rodinal for a high acutance negative.  Piezo seems to
>>> have smoother the film grain somehow.  Print looks good: similar
>>> comments to the Church image.
>>> 
>>> Stadium Print - ImagePrint
>>> 
>>> I used the tint picker with this, set at 1,1 to max out on the
> blue.
>>> However, because it prints slightly warm on Photo Rag, the print
> is
>>> just pleasingly slightly cool.
>>> 
>>> Imageprint faithfully renders the grain.  I'm not sure if Piezo
> has
>>> some smoothing trick built in to the software, but something odd
> is
>>> going on here.  I slightly prefer the ImagePrint print, even
> though
>>> the Piezo print has fractionally more shadow detail.  The extra
> punch
>>> from the Imageprint print, coupled with the tint, works for me.
>>> 
>>> The Piezo black is, though, a tad more dense than the Ultrachrome
>>> matte.  I tried a print with a Piezo ink profile through
> ImagePrint
>>> (using a special ImagePrint profile for the 7000) to the 7000 and
> the
>>> extra density of the Piezo Black is repeated, so it has nothing
> to do
>>> with the driver used.  The print done with ImagePrint through
> Piezo
>>> looks very similar (but with the denser black) to the ImagePrint
>>> print through the 7600.  It may not be quite as good.
>>> 
>>> Is there a winner?  Let me put it like this.  On the evidence of
> the
>>> prints I have so far done, ImagePrint 5 is a viable, very high
>>> quality alternative to Piezo Pro, with the benifit of the tint
>>> picker, support in new profiles from ColorByte, and no banding
>>> problems.  Personally, I really like the tint picker.  It imparts
> a
>>> quite subtle tone to the image.
>>> 
>>> When it works, Piezo Pro is superb, and may just have the edge in
>>> ultimate quality, in my view, but you are limited to the tone of
> the
>>> inkset you have chosen, and at the moment its future is unclear.
>>> 
>>> One final comment: ImagePrint prints better B&W thought the 7600,
> in
>>> my view, than through the 7000.
>>> 
>>> So - no winner, just choices.
>>> 
>>> Quentin
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
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