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Piezo Pro, 7000 and ImagePrint 5, 7600 for B&W.

Piezo Pro, 7000 and ImagePrint 5, 7600 for B&W.

2002-09-26 by qdfb

Antonis suggested I post my updated views on comparisons I have 
undertaken recently of B&W output from an Epson 7000 run by 
Piezography Pro (the so called R9 software), with Selenium Tone inks, 
and an Epson 7600, matte black ink, run by ImagePrint 5.  Finally, 
I'll comment briefly on the 7000 / Selenium run by ImagePrint 5.

I deliberately use the word "views", not "findings" because this is 
not a scientific experiment.  It is, inevitably, in large part 
subjective. Your mileage, as they say, may vary.

If Antonis thinks it useful, I may add the images I used for this 
test to the files section of the list so you can see what I am 
talking about below.

One image, the church image, has a lot of information in the 95-99% 
range, but hardly any at 100%.  It is a good test of shadow detail.  
The other image, from  the Olympic stadium in Barcelona, is sharp but 
a bit grainy, with some deep shadows and blown out highlights.  Both 
are 360 dpi.  Prints were made on Photo Rag 308gsm

Chruch Print - Piezo

I have some issues with Piezo / Selenium inks.  There is some subtle 
microbanding I cannot shift.  Others have reported this on the two 
piezo lists, and it seems to be a problem associated with the change 
from the old "Sundance" inks to the new PiezoTone inks.  This has 
been a driver behind my personal search for a viable alternative.

I continue to be amazed at how well Piezo seperates tones in the 95-
100% region.  I'd argue it looks almost too open.  There seems to 
have been some contrast loss with the new inks, but they exhibit 
incredible tonality.  There is no sootiness, and you can see in to 
the shadows. 

There are no visible dots under an 8x loup, but if you *really* look 
closely, you can just see the "tartan" weave pattern.  Frankly, this 
is irrelevant, as the surface texture of Photo Rag is more obvious at 
this magnification.  If only the microbanding would shift, this would 
be one near perfect print.

Chruch Print - ImagePrint / 7600

The original shot was taken on a Bronica GS 1 6x7 camera, Agfa APX 
25, developed in Rodinal, 

I used a profile kindly supplied by John Pannozzo this week 
specifically for Photo Rag and Matte ink.  Print made at 1440, 8-pass.

The first point to make is that we are looking at a totally neutral 
B&W print.  There are no croosover effects - no way to tell this was 
not made with a quadtone inkset.  Metamerism is also almost 
bansihed.  This, I am told, is because ImagePrint does not use the 
yellow ink.  Whatever, it works :-)

It is immediately noticeable that there is more contrast in this 
print.  It also looks slightly sharper, possibly a result of the 
greater contrast, but I wonder also if the way ink is laid down is a 
factor, or whether the smaller dot size / resolution improvement with 
the 7600 is in evidence.  

There are no dots visible to the naked eye. Under an 8x loup, you can 
just make out the individual colour dyes laid down by the 7600 in 
lighter tone areas.  Not the slightest chance you'd see this without 
a powerful loup - the print looks totally dotless - and even with a 
loup, the dots are far from obvious.  They are a little more obvious 
under the loup if you chose 4 instead of 8 pass at 1440. 

The shadows are well seperated with ImagePrint, but not quite as much 
shadow info is visible at around the 96-98% mark as with Piezo.  it 
is a matter of taste which is "better".  I do think, however, that it 
is more obvious where the matte black in kicks in.  I might 
experiment with ink limiting as I think this would improve matters.

Nij Rheam and I have speculated whether the ImagePrint Gamma 2.2 
prints just a tad too dark.

Stadium Print - Piezo

A more contrasty subject, shot on a Mamiya 7II with Agfa 100 and 
developed in Rodinal for a high acutance negative.  Piezo seems to 
have smoother the film grain somehow.  Print looks good: similar 
comments to the Church image.

Stadium Print - ImagePrint

I used the tint picker with this, set at 1,1 to max out on the blue.  
However, because it prints slightly warm on Photo Rag, the print is 
just pleasingly slightly cool.

Imageprint faithfully renders the grain.  I'm not sure if Piezo has 
some smoothing trick built in to the software, but something odd is 
going on here.  I slightly prefer the ImagePrint print, even though 
the Piezo print has fractionally more shadow detail.  The extra punch 
from the Imageprint print, coupled with the tint, works for me.

The Piezo black is, though, a tad more dense than the Ultrachrome 
matte.  I tried a print with a Piezo ink profile through ImagePrint 
(using a special ImagePrint profile for the 7000) to the 7000 and the 
extra density of the Piezo Black is repeated, so it has nothing to do 
with the driver used.  The print done with ImagePrint through Piezo 
looks very similar (but with the denser black) to the ImagePrint 
print through the 7600.  It may not be quite as good.

Is there a winner?  Let me put it like this.  On the evidence of the 
prints I have so far done, ImagePrint 5 is a viable, very high 
quality alternative to Piezo Pro, with the benifit of the tint 
picker, support in new profiles from ColorByte, and no banding 
problems.  Personally, I really like the tint picker.  It imparts a 
quite subtle tone to the image.

When it works, Piezo Pro is superb, and may just have the edge in 
ultimate quality, in my view, but you are limited to the tone of the 
inkset you have chosen, and at the moment its future is unclear.

One final comment: ImagePrint prints better B&W thought the 7600, in 
my view, than through the 7000.

So - no winner, just choices.

Quentin

Re: [Digital BW] Piezo Pro, 7000 and ImagePrint 5, 7600 for B&W.

2002-09-26 by Craig J. Sterling

Quentin,

Excellently written evaluation...thanks.

One thing I am not particularly clear on, and that is...when printing
neutral B/W from the 7600 with ImagePrint, is the printer laying down 7
colors or 2 colors?  I am told 2 colors.  If that is so, than no way are 2
colors of black going to out perform the smoothness and contrast of 6
colors/shades of black, i.e. Quad/Hex.

Also, what is 4 pass vs. 8 pass printing at 1440?

Thanks...Craig Sterling
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: "qdfb" <qdb@...>
> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 22:37:12 -0000
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Piezo Pro, 7000 and ImagePrint 5, 7600 for B&W.
> 
> Antonis suggested I post my updated views on comparisons I have
> undertaken recently of B&W output from an Epson 7000 run by
> Piezography Pro (the so called R9 software), with Selenium Tone inks,
> and an Epson 7600, matte black ink, run by ImagePrint 5.  Finally,
> I'll comment briefly on the 7000 / Selenium run by ImagePrint 5.
> 
> I deliberately use the word "views", not "findings" because this is
> not a scientific experiment.  It is, inevitably, in large part
> subjective. Your mileage, as they say, may vary.
> 
> If Antonis thinks it useful, I may add the images I used for this
> test to the files section of the list so you can see what I am
> talking about below.
> 
> One image, the church image, has a lot of information in the 95-99%
> range, but hardly any at 100%.  It is a good test of shadow detail.
> The other image, from  the Olympic stadium in Barcelona, is sharp but
> a bit grainy, with some deep shadows and blown out highlights.  Both
> are 360 dpi.  Prints were made on Photo Rag 308gsm
> 
> Chruch Print - Piezo
> 
> I have some issues with Piezo / Selenium inks.  There is some subtle
> microbanding I cannot shift.  Others have reported this on the two
> piezo lists, and it seems to be a problem associated with the change
> from the old "Sundance" inks to the new PiezoTone inks.  This has
> been a driver behind my personal search for a viable alternative.
> 
> I continue to be amazed at how well Piezo seperates tones in the 95-
> 100% region.  I'd argue it looks almost too open.  There seems to
> have been some contrast loss with the new inks, but they exhibit
> incredible tonality.  There is no sootiness, and you can see in to
> the shadows. 
> 
> There are no visible dots under an 8x loup, but if you *really* look
> closely, you can just see the "tartan" weave pattern.  Frankly, this
> is irrelevant, as the surface texture of Photo Rag is more obvious at
> this magnification.  If only the microbanding would shift, this would
> be one near perfect print.
> 
> Chruch Print - ImagePrint / 7600
> 
> The original shot was taken on a Bronica GS 1 6x7 camera, Agfa APX
> 25, developed in Rodinal,
> 
> I used a profile kindly supplied by John Pannozzo this week
> specifically for Photo Rag and Matte ink.  Print made at 1440, 8-pass.
> 
> The first point to make is that we are looking at a totally neutral
> B&W print.  There are no croosover effects - no way to tell this was
> not made with a quadtone inkset.  Metamerism is also almost
> bansihed.  This, I am told, is because ImagePrint does not use the
> yellow ink.  Whatever, it works :-)
> 
> It is immediately noticeable that there is more contrast in this
> print.  It also looks slightly sharper, possibly a result of the
> greater contrast, but I wonder also if the way ink is laid down is a
> factor, or whether the smaller dot size / resolution improvement with
> the 7600 is in evidence.
> 
> There are no dots visible to the naked eye. Under an 8x loup, you can
> just make out the individual colour dyes laid down by the 7600 in
> lighter tone areas.  Not the slightest chance you'd see this without
> a powerful loup - the print looks totally dotless - and even with a
> loup, the dots are far from obvious.  They are a little more obvious
> under the loup if you chose 4 instead of 8 pass at 1440.
> 
> The shadows are well seperated with ImagePrint, but not quite as much
> shadow info is visible at around the 96-98% mark as with Piezo.  it
> is a matter of taste which is "better".  I do think, however, that it
> is more obvious where the matte black in kicks in.  I might
> experiment with ink limiting as I think this would improve matters.
> 
> Nij Rheam and I have speculated whether the ImagePrint Gamma 2.2
> prints just a tad too dark.
> 
> Stadium Print - Piezo
> 
> A more contrasty subject, shot on a Mamiya 7II with Agfa 100 and
> developed in Rodinal for a high acutance negative.  Piezo seems to
> have smoother the film grain somehow.  Print looks good: similar
> comments to the Church image.
> 
> Stadium Print - ImagePrint
> 
> I used the tint picker with this, set at 1,1 to max out on the blue.
> However, because it prints slightly warm on Photo Rag, the print is
> just pleasingly slightly cool.
> 
> Imageprint faithfully renders the grain.  I'm not sure if Piezo has
> some smoothing trick built in to the software, but something odd is
> going on here.  I slightly prefer the ImagePrint print, even though
> the Piezo print has fractionally more shadow detail.  The extra punch
> from the Imageprint print, coupled with the tint, works for me.
> 
> The Piezo black is, though, a tad more dense than the Ultrachrome
> matte.  I tried a print with a Piezo ink profile through ImagePrint
> (using a special ImagePrint profile for the 7000) to the 7000 and the
> extra density of the Piezo Black is repeated, so it has nothing to do
> with the driver used.  The print done with ImagePrint through Piezo
> looks very similar (but with the denser black) to the ImagePrint
> print through the 7600.  It may not be quite as good.
> 
> Is there a winner?  Let me put it like this.  On the evidence of the
> prints I have so far done, ImagePrint 5 is a viable, very high
> quality alternative to Piezo Pro, with the benifit of the tint
> picker, support in new profiles from ColorByte, and no banding
> problems.  Personally, I really like the tint picker.  It imparts a
> quite subtle tone to the image.
> 
> When it works, Piezo Pro is superb, and may just have the edge in
> ultimate quality, in my view, but you are limited to the tone of the
> inkset you have chosen, and at the moment its future is unclear.
> 
> One final comment: ImagePrint prints better B&W thought the 7600, in
> my view, than through the 7000.
> 
> So - no winner, just choices.
> 
> Quentin
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>

Re: [Digital BW] Piezo Pro, 7000 and ImagePrint 5, 7600 for B&W.

2002-09-27 by qdfb

Craig,

On the inks used, I have assumed all, except the yellow.  It is 
definitely not using just the two blacks; no way the prints would 
look this good if that was the case.  The way the tint picker works, 
you can subtlely vary the colour from warm to cool etc.  That 
involves all the inks, save yellow.

The 4 and 8 pass at 1440 are different ImagePrint quality settings, 
reflecting the number of print head passes.  You could set 2880, but 
I doubt there would be any point on matte media.  Basically, 8 pass 
is about half the speed of 4 pass, as you would expect, but you do 
see the benefits in a smoother print, particularly with colour.

Quentin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Craig J. Sterling" 
<craig@c...> wrote:
> Quentin,
> 
> Excellently written evaluation...thanks.
> 
> One thing I am not particularly clear on, and that is...when 
printing
> neutral B/W from the 7600 with ImagePrint, is the printer laying 
down 7
> colors or 2 colors?  I am told 2 colors.  If that is so, than no 
way are 2
> colors of black going to out perform the smoothness and contrast of 
6
> colors/shades of black, i.e. Quad/Hex.
> 
> Also, what is 4 pass vs. 8 pass printing at 1440?
> 
> Thanks...Craig Sterling
> 
> > From: "qdfb" <qdb@b...>
> > Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
> > Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 22:37:12 -0000
> > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
> > Subject: [Digital BW] Piezo Pro, 7000 and ImagePrint 5, 7600 for 
B&W.
> > 
> > Antonis suggested I post my updated views on comparisons I have
> > undertaken recently of B&W output from an Epson 7000 run by
> > Piezography Pro (the so called R9 software), with Selenium Tone 
inks,
> > and an Epson 7600, matte black ink, run by ImagePrint 5.  Finally,
> > I'll comment briefly on the 7000 / Selenium run by ImagePrint 5.
> > 
> > I deliberately use the word "views", not "findings" because this 
is
> > not a scientific experiment.  It is, inevitably, in large part
> > subjective. Your mileage, as they say, may vary.
> > 
> > If Antonis thinks it useful, I may add the images I used for this
> > test to the files section of the list so you can see what I am
> > talking about below.
> > 
> > One image, the church image, has a lot of information in the 95-
99%
> > range, but hardly any at 100%.  It is a good test of shadow 
detail.
> > The other image, from  the Olympic stadium in Barcelona, is sharp 
but
> > a bit grainy, with some deep shadows and blown out highlights.  
Both
> > are 360 dpi.  Prints were made on Photo Rag 308gsm
> > 
> > Chruch Print - Piezo
> > 
> > I have some issues with Piezo / Selenium inks.  There is some 
subtle
> > microbanding I cannot shift.  Others have reported this on the two
> > piezo lists, and it seems to be a problem associated with the 
change
> > from the old "Sundance" inks to the new PiezoTone inks.  This has
> > been a driver behind my personal search for a viable alternative.
> > 
> > I continue to be amazed at how well Piezo seperates tones in the 
95-
> > 100% region.  I'd argue it looks almost too open.  There seems to
> > have been some contrast loss with the new inks, but they exhibit
> > incredible tonality.  There is no sootiness, and you can see in to
> > the shadows. 
> > 
> > There are no visible dots under an 8x loup, but if you *really* 
look
> > closely, you can just see the "tartan" weave pattern.  Frankly, 
this
> > is irrelevant, as the surface texture of Photo Rag is more 
obvious at
> > this magnification.  If only the microbanding would shift, this 
would
> > be one near perfect print.
> > 
> > Chruch Print - ImagePrint / 7600
> > 
> > The original shot was taken on a Bronica GS 1 6x7 camera, Agfa APX
> > 25, developed in Rodinal,
> > 
> > I used a profile kindly supplied by John Pannozzo this week
> > specifically for Photo Rag and Matte ink.  Print made at 1440, 8-
pass.
> > 
> > The first point to make is that we are looking at a totally 
neutral
> > B&W print.  There are no croosover effects - no way to tell this 
was
> > not made with a quadtone inkset.  Metamerism is also almost
> > bansihed.  This, I am told, is because ImagePrint does not use the
> > yellow ink.  Whatever, it works :-)
> > 
> > It is immediately noticeable that there is more contrast in this
> > print.  It also looks slightly sharper, possibly a result of the
> > greater contrast, but I wonder also if the way ink is laid down 
is a
> > factor, or whether the smaller dot size / resolution improvement 
with
> > the 7600 is in evidence.
> > 
> > There are no dots visible to the naked eye. Under an 8x loup, you 
can
> > just make out the individual colour dyes laid down by the 7600 in
> > lighter tone areas.  Not the slightest chance you'd see this 
without
> > a powerful loup - the print looks totally dotless - and even with 
a
> > loup, the dots are far from obvious.  They are a little more 
obvious
> > under the loup if you chose 4 instead of 8 pass at 1440.
> > 
> > The shadows are well seperated with ImagePrint, but not quite as 
much
> > shadow info is visible at around the 96-98% mark as with Piezo.  
it
> > is a matter of taste which is "better".  I do think, however, 
that it
> > is more obvious where the matte black in kicks in.  I might
> > experiment with ink limiting as I think this would improve 
matters.
> > 
> > Nij Rheam and I have speculated whether the ImagePrint Gamma 2.2
> > prints just a tad too dark.
> > 
> > Stadium Print - Piezo
> > 
> > A more contrasty subject, shot on a Mamiya 7II with Agfa 100 and
> > developed in Rodinal for a high acutance negative.  Piezo seems to
> > have smoother the film grain somehow.  Print looks good: similar
> > comments to the Church image.
> > 
> > Stadium Print - ImagePrint
> > 
> > I used the tint picker with this, set at 1,1 to max out on the 
blue.
> > However, because it prints slightly warm on Photo Rag, the print 
is
> > just pleasingly slightly cool.
> > 
> > Imageprint faithfully renders the grain.  I'm not sure if Piezo 
has
> > some smoothing trick built in to the software, but something odd 
is
> > going on here.  I slightly prefer the ImagePrint print, even 
though
> > the Piezo print has fractionally more shadow detail.  The extra 
punch
> > from the Imageprint print, coupled with the tint, works for me.
> > 
> > The Piezo black is, though, a tad more dense than the Ultrachrome
> > matte.  I tried a print with a Piezo ink profile through 
ImagePrint
> > (using a special ImagePrint profile for the 7000) to the 7000 and 
the
> > extra density of the Piezo Black is repeated, so it has nothing 
to do
> > with the driver used.  The print done with ImagePrint through 
Piezo
> > looks very similar (but with the denser black) to the ImagePrint
> > print through the 7600.  It may not be quite as good.
> > 
> > Is there a winner?  Let me put it like this.  On the evidence of 
the
> > prints I have so far done, ImagePrint 5 is a viable, very high
> > quality alternative to Piezo Pro, with the benifit of the tint
> > picker, support in new profiles from ColorByte, and no banding
> > problems.  Personally, I really like the tint picker.  It imparts 
a
> > quite subtle tone to the image.
> > 
> > When it works, Piezo Pro is superb, and may just have the edge in
> > ultimate quality, in my view, but you are limited to the tone of 
the
> > inkset you have chosen, and at the moment its future is unclear.
> > 
> > One final comment: ImagePrint prints better B&W thought the 7600, 
in
> > my view, than through the 7000.
> > 
> > So - no winner, just choices.
> > 
> > Quentin
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
Polls and other
> > resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> > 
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > 
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
wish to
> > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
this same
> > page.
> > 
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep
> > them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> > &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
various
> > resources on the homepage.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >

Re: Piezo Pro, 7000 and ImagePrint 5, 7600 for B&W.

2002-09-27 by Antonis Ricos

Quentin,

thanks so much for this review. This comparison across drivers and inksets is 
on many people's mind, and I believe this is very helpful to us.

First, I'd be glad to upload the two images. If you prefer, you can scan relevant 
areas of the prints for direct comparisons. The idea would be to scan a small 
area that would fit at 100% on a 15" monitor or thereabouts. If it's too much 
trouble, a small jpg of the file would do too.

Second, if you have a densitometer, can you tell us the maximum density on 
PhotoRag for either inkset/driver? My initial tests with the 2200 and Epson 
driver showed the PhotoRag to be less dense than EAM using the matte 
black, and that surprised me.

Finally, as you know, the extra punch of the Piezotones is due to fugitive dyes 
contained in the black and is good only for prints carefully kept in dark 
storage.  In that sense, the jury is out as to which system works best. Giving up 
some dmax for greater stability seems to be the inevitable conclusion. Not just 
between Piezotones and Ultrachromes but other inks like MIS-FS.

I'd be curious, though, to hear your overall, non technical take on the "look" of 
the Ultra bw - besides dmax and such: Does it have the luxurious look and 
feel of the piezo prints (or quad black prints in general)? 

Thanks again!

Antonis

Re: [Digital BW] Piezo Pro, 7000 and ImagePrint 5, 7600 for B&W.

2002-09-27 by Robert Morrison

Imageprint uses photocyan, photomagenta, black and lightblack when printing
in BW mode.  The main problem with 7600 BW output that I've seen is
highlight detail.  Because the lightblack ink is much blacker than a
"yellow" channel quad ink, the dots in the hilights are necessarily easier
to see.  I doubt that most people would notice this without a loupe...but
I'm "cursed" with 20/15 vision.  In addition, in the samples that I've seen
the shadows tend to become blocked when you actually use the tint picker.
The dead neutral gray ramp looked very nice, though...I'm looking forward to
trying it with a 2200.

Robert
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On 9/26/02 5:00 PM, "qdfb" <qdb@...> wrote:

> Craig,
> 
> On the inks used, I have assumed all, except the yellow.  It is
> definitely not using just the two blacks; no way the prints would
> look this good if that was the case.  The way the tint picker works,
> you can subtlely vary the colour from warm to cool etc.  That
> involves all the inks, save yellow.
> 
> The 4 and 8 pass at 1440 are different ImagePrint quality settings,
> reflecting the number of print head passes.  You could set 2880, but
> I doubt there would be any point on matte media.  Basically, 8 pass
> is about half the speed of 4 pass, as you would expect, but you do
> see the benefits in a smoother print, particularly with colour.
> 
> Quentin
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Craig J. Sterling"
> <craig@c...> wrote:
>> Quentin,
>> 
>> Excellently written evaluation...thanks.
>> 
>> One thing I am not particularly clear on, and that is...when
> printing
>> neutral B/W from the 7600 with ImagePrint, is the printer laying
> down 7
>> colors or 2 colors?  I am told 2 colors.  If that is so, than no
> way are 2
>> colors of black going to out perform the smoothness and contrast of
> 6
>> colors/shades of black, i.e. Quad/Hex.
>> 
>> Also, what is 4 pass vs. 8 pass printing at 1440?
>> 
>> Thanks...Craig Sterling
>> 
>>> From: "qdfb" <qdb@b...>
>>> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
>>> Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 22:37:12 -0000
>>> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
>>> Subject: [Digital BW] Piezo Pro, 7000 and ImagePrint 5, 7600 for
> B&W.
>>> 
>>> Antonis suggested I post my updated views on comparisons I have
>>> undertaken recently of B&W output from an Epson 7000 run by
>>> Piezography Pro (the so called R9 software), with Selenium Tone
> inks,
>>> and an Epson 7600, matte black ink, run by ImagePrint 5.  Finally,
>>> I'll comment briefly on the 7000 / Selenium run by ImagePrint 5.
>>> 
>>> I deliberately use the word "views", not "findings" because this
> is
>>> not a scientific experiment.  It is, inevitably, in large part
>>> subjective. Your mileage, as they say, may vary.
>>> 
>>> If Antonis thinks it useful, I may add the images I used for this
>>> test to the files section of the list so you can see what I am
>>> talking about below.
>>> 
>>> One image, the church image, has a lot of information in the 95-
> 99%
>>> range, but hardly any at 100%.  It is a good test of shadow
> detail.
>>> The other image, from  the Olympic stadium in Barcelona, is sharp
> but
>>> a bit grainy, with some deep shadows and blown out highlights.
> Both
>>> are 360 dpi.  Prints were made on Photo Rag 308gsm
>>> 
>>> Chruch Print - Piezo
>>> 
>>> I have some issues with Piezo / Selenium inks.  There is some
> subtle
>>> microbanding I cannot shift.  Others have reported this on the two
>>> piezo lists, and it seems to be a problem associated with the
> change
>>> from the old "Sundance" inks to the new PiezoTone inks.  This has
>>> been a driver behind my personal search for a viable alternative.
>>> 
>>> I continue to be amazed at how well Piezo seperates tones in the
> 95-
>>> 100% region.  I'd argue it looks almost too open.  There seems to
>>> have been some contrast loss with the new inks, but they exhibit
>>> incredible tonality.  There is no sootiness, and you can see in to
>>> the shadows. 
>>> 
>>> There are no visible dots under an 8x loup, but if you *really*
> look
>>> closely, you can just see the "tartan" weave pattern.  Frankly,
> this
>>> is irrelevant, as the surface texture of Photo Rag is more
> obvious at
>>> this magnification.  If only the microbanding would shift, this
> would
>>> be one near perfect print.
>>> 
>>> Chruch Print - ImagePrint / 7600
>>> 
>>> The original shot was taken on a Bronica GS 1 6x7 camera, Agfa APX
>>> 25, developed in Rodinal,
>>> 
>>> I used a profile kindly supplied by John Pannozzo this week
>>> specifically for Photo Rag and Matte ink.  Print made at 1440, 8-
> pass.
>>> 
>>> The first point to make is that we are looking at a totally
> neutral
>>> B&W print.  There are no croosover effects - no way to tell this
> was
>>> not made with a quadtone inkset.  Metamerism is also almost
>>> bansihed.  This, I am told, is because ImagePrint does not use the
>>> yellow ink.  Whatever, it works :-)
>>> 
>>> It is immediately noticeable that there is more contrast in this
>>> print.  It also looks slightly sharper, possibly a result of the
>>> greater contrast, but I wonder also if the way ink is laid down
> is a
>>> factor, or whether the smaller dot size / resolution improvement
> with
>>> the 7600 is in evidence.
>>> 
>>> There are no dots visible to the naked eye. Under an 8x loup, you
> can
>>> just make out the individual colour dyes laid down by the 7600 in
>>> lighter tone areas.  Not the slightest chance you'd see this
> without
>>> a powerful loup - the print looks totally dotless - and even with
> a
>>> loup, the dots are far from obvious.  They are a little more
> obvious
>>> under the loup if you chose 4 instead of 8 pass at 1440.
>>> 
>>> The shadows are well seperated with ImagePrint, but not quite as
> much
>>> shadow info is visible at around the 96-98% mark as with Piezo.
> it
>>> is a matter of taste which is "better".  I do think, however,
> that it
>>> is more obvious where the matte black in kicks in.  I might
>>> experiment with ink limiting as I think this would improve
> matters.
>>> 
>>> Nij Rheam and I have speculated whether the ImagePrint Gamma 2.2
>>> prints just a tad too dark.
>>> 
>>> Stadium Print - Piezo
>>> 
>>> A more contrasty subject, shot on a Mamiya 7II with Agfa 100 and
>>> developed in Rodinal for a high acutance negative.  Piezo seems to
>>> have smoother the film grain somehow.  Print looks good: similar
>>> comments to the Church image.
>>> 
>>> Stadium Print - ImagePrint
>>> 
>>> I used the tint picker with this, set at 1,1 to max out on the
> blue.
>>> However, because it prints slightly warm on Photo Rag, the print
> is
>>> just pleasingly slightly cool.
>>> 
>>> Imageprint faithfully renders the grain.  I'm not sure if Piezo
> has
>>> some smoothing trick built in to the software, but something odd
> is
>>> going on here.  I slightly prefer the ImagePrint print, even
> though
>>> the Piezo print has fractionally more shadow detail.  The extra
> punch
>>> from the Imageprint print, coupled with the tint, works for me.
>>> 
>>> The Piezo black is, though, a tad more dense than the Ultrachrome
>>> matte.  I tried a print with a Piezo ink profile through
> ImagePrint
>>> (using a special ImagePrint profile for the 7000) to the 7000 and
> the
>>> extra density of the Piezo Black is repeated, so it has nothing
> to do
>>> with the driver used.  The print done with ImagePrint through
> Piezo
>>> looks very similar (but with the denser black) to the ImagePrint
>>> print through the 7600.  It may not be quite as good.
>>> 
>>> Is there a winner?  Let me put it like this.  On the evidence of
> the
>>> prints I have so far done, ImagePrint 5 is a viable, very high
>>> quality alternative to Piezo Pro, with the benifit of the tint
>>> picker, support in new profiles from ColorByte, and no banding
>>> problems.  Personally, I really like the tint picker.  It imparts
> a
>>> quite subtle tone to the image.
>>> 
>>> When it works, Piezo Pro is superb, and may just have the edge in
>>> ultimate quality, in my view, but you are limited to the tone of
> the
>>> inkset you have chosen, and at the moment its future is unclear.
>>> 
>>> One final comment: ImagePrint prints better B&W thought the 7600,
> in
>>> my view, than through the 7000.
>>> 
>>> So - no winner, just choices.
>>> 
>>> Quentin
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
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>>> 
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> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
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>

Re: Piezo Pro, 7000 and ImagePrint 5, 7600 for B&W.

2002-09-27 by qdfb

Antonis,

Judging the look and feel is tricky :-)  It is a close call.  I do 
think some tweaking is needed in the denser areas to get ImagePrint 
fully to equal Piezo.  The shadows look a touch "heavy". They are 
streets ahead of the Epson driver, but not quite as smooth as the 
Piezo driver. I always use the dedicated "gray" profiles. 

I'm not a fan of scanned images for comparison: analysing a print on 
screen is not a good substitute for looking at a print yourself.  I 
will however, try and get some idea of the density of the competing 
black inks over the weekend, and post this.  I'll also bung the 
images I used accross to you a bit later.  I've just sent a set of 
test prints to someone else: I'll ask them if they are willing to 
offer a "second opinion" to the group.

Cheers

Quentin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Antonis Ricos" 
<antonisphoto@y...> wrote:
> Quentin,
> 
> thanks so much for this review. This comparison across drivers and 
inksets is 
> on many people's mind, and I believe this is very helpful to us.
> 
> First, I'd be glad to upload the two images. If you prefer, you can 
scan relevant 
> areas of the prints for direct comparisons. The idea would be to 
scan a small 
> area that would fit at 100% on a 15" monitor or thereabouts. If 
it's too much 
> trouble, a small jpg of the file would do too.
> 
> Second, if you have a densitometer, can you tell us the maximum 
density on 
> PhotoRag for either inkset/driver? My initial tests with the 2200 
and Epson 
> driver showed the PhotoRag to be less dense than EAM using the 
matte 
> black, and that surprised me.
> 
> Finally, as you know, the extra punch of the Piezotones is due to 
fugitive dyes 
> contained in the black and is good only for prints carefully kept 
in dark 
> storage.  In that sense, the jury is out as to which system works 
best. Giving up 
> some dmax for greater stability seems to be the inevitable 
conclusion. Not just 
> between Piezotones and Ultrachromes but other inks like MIS-FS.
> 
> I'd be curious, though, to hear your overall, non technical take on 
the "look" of 
> the Ultra bw - besides dmax and such: Does it have the luxurious 
look and 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> feel of the piezo prints (or quad black prints in general)? 
> 
> Thanks again!
> 
> Antonis

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